Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl?

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Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 7:44:44 AM

kfmiller41

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I have been watching the AARs and I was just wondering if anyone has tried to do this early on, and it it feasable to even consider it

I am assuming that Japan does have the momentum to do it early on, but at the risk of getting other things done. Just wanted some imput from the testers.

Thanks

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 7:52:35 AM

2ndACR

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IIRC Mogami tried to do it and got creamed. As the IJ you will have trouble supplying it after you take it. I will probably try it against the AI just to see for myself.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 8:05:43 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

I have been watching the AARs and I was just wondering if anyone has tried to do this early on, and it it feasable to even consider it I am assuming that Japan does have the momentum to do it early on, but at the risk of getting other things done. Just wanted some imput from the testers.

Thanks

I imagine holding it for more than a short time is the real problem. Its a case of a tactical victory being a strategic defeat...

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:27:00 AM

Pascal_slith

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The question you should ask when considering Pearl Harbor is how best to make the base useless to the US Navy for as long a period as possible. Remember, the Allies will ALWAYS eventually have the means to take a base/island, etc. back. The victory conditions for the Japanese is to lose AFTER the historical date. Any Japanese strategy must be based on DELAYING the inevitable for as long as possible.

I would suspect that a concerted attack on the FACILTIES (repair yard, supply points, etc.) at Pearl and a well-maintained submarine force attacking shipping between Pearl and the West Coast, along with the SLOC from the US to Australia, may have a better chance at creating this delay.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 5:35:35 PM

Mike Scholl

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If everything goes right, and the Japanese strip resources from the rest of the Pacific,
and all the "die rolls" go your way it MIGHT BE possible. Oahu sports the best part off
two US Divisions at the start of the war, plus many other military personel. It also
has Coast Defense Artillery works which have been modernized in relation to those
in the Philippines (Hawaii was not included in the Washington Agreements) and mount
heavier artillery. The practical invasion beaches are well covered, the North Shore
less so. But trying to bring a bunch of boats in through the "Banzai Pipeline" is pro-
bably defense enough. All in all, a doubtfull enterprise, especially when many more
valuable targets are available with far less risk.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 5:45:46 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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I've never tried it but I think you'd have to strip invasion forces from everywhere else to succeed and you'd lose alot of ships doing it trying to get enough forces on the ground to defeat the Americans. PH starts heavily fortified with two divisions plus many support units. Day one these units are sufferign from turn 1 surprise and all allied units have a heavy number of disabled squads to represent that they aren't ready for war. But to rearrange all your TFs and sent a strong enough force to PH gives them time to recover. Plus I don't you'd get surprise so surface and air combat TFs would meet you. Coastal guns galore when you got close to land your troops. Supplying them would be a nightmare. Then there are the PT boats that will sortie to defend their hex even if your opponent didn't form them into a TF. It would be bloody. I should try it just to see the damage.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 5:49:41 PM

foliveti

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Does Oahu cover two hexes in games terms and is there any way for the game to know that surf is up on the North Shore?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 5:55:21 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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The PH base is one hex and there is no surf difference or anything that detailed. With the scale you aren't directing an assualt against certain beaches at certain times. Here is all the islands in the chain though.

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< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 6/4/2004 10:55:46 AM >

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 5:56:41 PM

Mr.Frag

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Exactly ... you can get into the hex but it is doubtful that you can clear the hex of shipping to start troops unloading.

A little trick for you ... when defending a port, there is a way to enforce suicidal ships:

Set your ship home port and destination location to the same hex. This means the ship can not leave the hex no matter what happens. Even battered and sinking, the ship can not go anywhere because it is already at it's home port. Because of this, enemy transports can not unload.

This forces the enemy surface/bombardment tf's to fight again and again until sinking every single ship completely. They *will* run out of ammo in the process and break off their attacks. It is just a matter of time and ships, but any hex can be defended to *death* in this manner. Even though you *will* loose eventually, in the process you *will* prevent the landing for a while and each turn the enemy stays in the hex, more mines are hit and more CD's rain down fire.

It will take a large number of extremely agressive TF commanders in the enemy TF's to not break off the fight when they are low on ammo.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 6:04:23 PM

Nikademus

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To put it in a nutshell. Its possible. It would be expensive and lenghty but possible

Mogami's test was done very early on and it was costly. With the new, improved LCU rules......i can gurantee you you'll be using divisions that would normally be aquiring
resources and oil for Japan to do it and without both a massive superiority in grunts
and a large amount of bombardment, the issue will be, as more than one Marine commander once said during the early days......"in doubt"

Two full strength army divisions entrenched + CD units are a tough nut to crack now
in WitP. Turn all but eliminates the airforce problem but wont solve Japan's
supply train problem. (this will be critical for the bombardment aspect, both air
and sea)

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 6:15:33 PM

Fallschirmjager

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When you take something, does its port and airfield go back to one like in UV?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 6:20:32 PM

Nikademus

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no.

But if you've had to do alot of bombardment and such, you'll be looking at a completely wrecked base. (100% damage to port, airfield and airfield infra)

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 6:21:49 PM

Fallschirmjager

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Hmm
Well there goes my smash and grab plan

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 6:42:43 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

But if you've had to do alot of bombardment and such, you'll be looking at a completely wrecked base. (100% damage to port, airfield and airfield infra)

Not to mention it is rather tough to bombard through a minefield ... tends to hurt the ships more then the shore.

One of the *great* additions in WitP is that coastal guns now work *together* with minefields. They will blow away your MSW's!

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 7:42:07 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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If the player is building something I believe the percentage completed takes a hit when a base changes hands. A great new feature we begged for was the building progress is saved if you halt contruction for whatever reason. It works for things you build and your enemy builds. So if you attack his base and he was building the next level airfield it's not reset to zero or if you're low on supplies you don't lose what you did if you stop it for a while. But if you capture a base and he's 80% complete it might be knocked down to say 35% or so from damage in the fighting. So you get the benefit of some of his work that survives the attack. Better than starting at zero.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 9:03:48 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Exactly ... you can get into the hex but it is doubtful that you can clear the hex of shipping to start troops unloading.

A little trick for you ... when defending a port, there is a way to enforce suicidal ships:

Set your ship home port and destination location to the same hex. This means the ship can not leave the hex no matter what happens. Even battered and sinking, the ship can not go anywhere because it is already at it's home port. Because of this, enemy transports can not unload.

This forces the enemy surface/bombardment tf's to fight again and again until sinking every single ship completely. They *will* run out of ammo in the process and break off their attacks. It is just a matter of time and ships, but any hex can be defended to *death* in this manner. Even though you *will* loose eventually, in the process you *will* prevent the landing for a while and each turn the enemy stays in the hex, more mines are hit and more CD's rain down fire.

It will take a large number of extremely agressive TF commanders in the enemy TF's to not break off the fight when they are low on ammo.

Wow, another "gamey" exploit that will likely be the subject of many "house rules".

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 9:22:40 PM

mdiehl

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Doesn't strike me as "gamey." This is in essence what Jean Bart did in the face of Op Torch. The attacker has to sink the defending vessels or render them incapable of shooting back. QED.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 9:32:17 PM

kaleun

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Concur

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 10:28:11 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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It's not gamey. A bit unrealistic from the human standpoint that not many would fight to the death. But a player pays for that tactic. Instead of saving his ships he's just removed them from play and added points towards victory for his opponent to delay an invasion by a whole few days.

< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 6/4/2004 3:29:51 PM >

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 10:31:03 PM

freeboy

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A simple

fix would be to allow invading players the option of ignoring ships and pressing home the invasion... really doesn't matter to the Japs at gc running the slot at night and dropping supplies or troops if a non combat Allied transport is around would it?
This would allow higher losses if landing forces actually met resistance...

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 10:43:52 PM

mdiehl

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No fix is needed. If the Jean Bart or whatever is in port you're not going to be "running" any transports into the same harbor while she's operational. The skippers will turn back or the overwhelming majority of transports will be sunk.

The way to avoid the problem is to make your landings in a location where there ISN'T a port full of heavy guns waiting to obliterate your transports. Guadalcanal is a wonderful example. You'll note that the Tok Express runs DIDN'T charge right into the thick of the defense.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 6/4/2004 8:45:35 PM >

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:02:16 PM

kaleun

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In fact, that was one of the lessons from the raid on Dieppe, that the losses from taking a defended port would be prohibitive. A side result were the Mayberry? floating piers to allow supply ships to dock on the beach.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:28:23 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

No fix is needed. If the Jean Bart or whatever is in port you're not going to be "running" any transports into the same harbor while she's operational. The skippers will turn back or the overwhelming majority of transports will be sunk.

Funny eh mdiehl?

A perfectly sound military tactic of area denial and people call it gamey ???

How is having a naval blockage in any way, shape or form gamey??? It has existed in the tactics of navies since man learned that wood floated. If I command my ships to stay and fight to the death to prevent your invasion, that is my choice as the ulitimate commander.

What would be gamey is if your transports pulled up and started unloading while I have a a couple of cruisers with 8" guns sitting there watching you!

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:31:01 PM

freeboy

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Frag? wood floats... come on guys, why would my dd and de's not drop off troops if a lone heavily damaged ship was around? I agree if the enemy ship was a ca or even a dd but any ship?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:31:25 PM

freeboy

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was supposed to be a ? wood floats?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:34:03 PM

mogami

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Hi, Here is how you capture San Francisco. Of course you have to make sure the Allies do not have surface ships on US West Coast (close enough to reach your landing sites for 2-3 days) And you'll have to provide CAP. I would not advise trying Naval Bombardment of SF but I would suggest airfield attacks by IJN CV.

Don't ask me where the 10 divisions are going to come from.
Don't blame me if this results in a disaster (I'm not going to try it)

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:37:35 PM

Mr.Frag

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You forgot to mention the redneck rule Mog ... a million renecks come down out of the mountains driving pickup trucks with flags in the back window and kill you all.

Seriously, the rule exists, but I am exaggerating it just a tad.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:37:36 PM

freeboy

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The new russio-japanese pact forces after russia govt is overthrown in a pro axis coup

really need my meds today

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:57:02 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

You forgot to mention the redneck rule Mog ... a million renecks come down out of the mountains driving pickup trucks with flags in the back window and kill you all.

I'm halfway through an ASL scenario -- KP152 I think is the title (IJA vs USA in the Philippines 1942). Speaking of rednecks, my Japanese sniper keeps hitting an immobilized, abandoned light truck. If you've ever been in any backwoods area in the US you've seen an abandoned, rusty, bullet-holed car in some long-abandoned field. Anyhow, my Japanese sniper has hit this empty truck (on which, since the truck is abandoned and immobilized, he can have no effect) so many times, that I have taken to referring to sniper-san as "Bo and Luke Duke."

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 6/4/2004 9:57:53 PM >

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/4/2004 11:58:57 PM

Fallschirmjager

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As I have said before, a much safer and infinitly more usefull objective, assuming everything else goes well would be to launch as invasion of Oz land.

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