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Utah Massacre - 12/9/2001 5:29:00 PM

Sabathius42

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

As a semi-newbie to playing SPWAW, I tend to only play the smaller, more manageable scenarios. The other day, however, I decided to fire up the Utah Beach scenario and have a go at storming the beaches. Things didn't go so well for me. So, I have come asking for some veteran advice. 1. Hidden Bunkers: Exactly why is it so hard to spot the giant concrete monstrosities? I had broken through the initial beach and cliffside with my forces, and I had detailed 10 or so squads to walk up and down the area behind the bunkers to reduce them, so they would stop taking out my ships. On more than a couple occasions I wouldn't be able to spot a bunker until I actually walked on top of it, and it gunned me down. This includes the HUGE bunker at the top of the map. Why are they so hard to spot? 2. Non-Hidden Bunker Busting: After locating and putting squads behind the bunkers I DID find, I proceeded to try to blow them up. I tried with Enginner Squads, I tried with regular squads, I even parked a tank directly behind one and laid some fire down on it's top. In some cases it would take me (not exaggering) 40+ assaults to take out a MG Bunker from behind. Does this seem right, attacking with an engineer squad? Another thing that happened more often than not, what when I chose to assault, no animation of firing would show, and no sound would sound, and my supression in the assaulting squad would shoot up by 20-30 points. What was happening there? I was only assaulting from the back, where they couldn't get a shot at me in return. 3. Missing Big Gun: In my list of units in my army I had a "12 (or maybe 14 or 16) Inch Naval Gun" which I assumed was an offscreen battleship or cruiser gun. However, it never showed up in my artillery box when I was calling in barrages. All of the 8 inch guns showed, but not this larger one. Any ideas why? 4. Useless Destroyers: The thing that had me salivating the most in this scenario was the two destroyers that were floating offshore. I wanted to move them up to plaster some of the bunkers, but I could never get them into any position where they could see any enemy units. Are the destroyers not able to direct-fire? Here hoping I can get some help and not be thrown back into the ocean next time. Dan Stone

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- 12/9/2001 6:31:00 PM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

I dont think Ive ever gotten around to playing that particular scenario, but Ill throw some ideas out there. 1. Use scout/recon teams moving slowly to detect the bunkers/nests/pillboxes.
2. Ive used engineer squads to bust open those hardpoints. It takes a while, but youll eventually crack it open.
3. Sometimes there is a 2nd page of artillery. There is a button to get to the next page.
4. Ive never played a scenario where I had destroyers, but if they work like LCI(R)s/etc, they should be able to direct fire...

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Post #: 2

- 12/9/2001 6:50:00 PM

peter hellman

Posts: 217
Joined: 7/29/2001
From: Finland
Status: offline

When you attack a bunker, or tank for example, the game runs some kind of experience check on the guys attacking. If they fail, there will be no attack, and the suppression level raises those 20-30. This doesn't usually happen to experienced troops.

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- 12/9/2001 6:52:00 PM

peter hellman

Posts: 217
Joined: 7/29/2001
From: Finland
Status: offline

Forgot to write, this may happen only when you attack at close range, 0-1 hexes away. Sorry.

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Post #: 4

- 12/9/2001 7:10:00 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, when a squads suppression goes to 20 without an attack taking place it means they failed their morale check. Things to consider
1. You don't need to make an assault just target the bunker and then click the grenade and pick the weapon you want to use (flame thrower or satchel charge)
2. If you do choose to close assault only use squads with a suppresion of zero.
3. Use smoke, cover the battle field with it. Then search with recon units moving slow. Isolate each enemy position with smoke and take them out one by one. (they can't move or change facing so approach accordingly)

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 5

- 12/9/2001 7:42:00 PM

Warrior

Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline

When possible during any assault, I'll bypass fortifications I can't destroy fairly quickly. Let the follow-up troops deal with them if you can. (Especially since you don't need to worry about the follow-up since it happens after the game ends!)

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Retreat is NOT an option.

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Post #: 6

- 12/9/2001 8:47:00 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Sabathius42:
As a semi-newbie to playing SPWAW, I tend to only play the smaller, more manageable scenarios. The other day, however, I decided to fire up the Utah Beach scenario and have a go at storming the beaches. Things didn't go so well for me. So, I have come asking for some veteran advice. 1. Hidden Bunkers: Exactly why is it so hard to spot the giant concrete monstrosities? I had broken through the initial beach and cliffside with my forces, and I had detailed 10 or so squads to walk up and down the area behind the bunkers to reduce them, so they would stop taking out my ships. On more than a couple occasions I wouldn't be able to spot a bunker until I actually walked on top of it, and it gunned me down. This includes the HUGE bunker at the top of the map. Why are they so hard to spot? Dan Stone

Probably the scenario designer wanted to make the scenario to be more challenging!? Historically I think (most of) the Utah beach fortifications were well known to the US intelligence, at least the biggest ones. The size0 bunkers are hard to detect at times though, the more they are deployed in good cover terrain (rough, buildings ect.) and with high experience crews!
2. Non-Hidden Bunker Busting: After locating and putting squads behind the bunkers I DID find, I proceeded to try to blow them up. I tried with Enginner Squads, I tried with regular squads, I even parked a tank directly behind one and laid some fire down on it's top. In some cases it would take me (not exaggering) 40+ assaults to take out a MG Bunker from behind. Does this seem right, attacking with an engineer squad?
Try this: Hit "t" key for targeting the bunker, then "C" key to choose particular weapon. If engineer squad, take flamethrower. This way you at least have two tries before you can use the assault command (simply "fire" on target). This effectively triples your chance to destroy the nasty bunker. Non-Engineer units: Use any HEAT capable weapon like bazookas or AT-mines with "T+C" key combination. (if this fails...you still have 1-2 "assault" tries left, depending upon unit experience/morale and movement status) ___________
Harry

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- 12/9/2001 10:35:00 PM

Jacc

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline

Yeah, I've noted the same problem also. The suppression add seems a fine idea, but how come do even elite forces (like a raider squad) gain superb suppression as trying to assault a bunker from behind? For example scenario "Castle Hill (-1944)", where you have to first conquer a hill, then defend it. My units were still trying to assault a bunker in the northern part of the hill, as my troops troops in the southern part (company F) were holding back the VG assault.

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Post #: 8

- 12/10/2001 12:30:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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I'll try to add a little here, though most of the questions have been well answered, in my opinion. The FOW in the game means that the enemy units are hidden, of course. Now there is a legitimate argument here by Sabathius about these being visible due to size and pre-invasion recon. This is the price we are paying for the FOW inclusion. I do think that larger complexes should be much easier to discover than smaller ground units. That being said, let me suggest that you also try this. A unit under any type of suppression is less apt to spot enemy forces. Try every unit in a possible LOS to the target. Once one unit sees the enemy, all units in the LOS of that same target can see it. What I am saying is that sometimes your attacking unit may not see it for some reason but another unit in good order will. So use all units to check the hex before attacking. It costs nothing to do so. Having DDs on the map came primarily due to my request to have one for the St Nazaire scenario I did about a year or so ago. I think, even as on map units they should have direct fire and indirect fire capabilities. They do have direct fire capabilities now. I've just been disappointed with some of the results I get with direct fire with 5" guns. As for off map artillery/support appearing in the menu, they should. They may not be accessible for whatever reason (counterbattery fire, suppressed observers, inexperience) but their name should appear in the list if they do have that capability. Wild Bill

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Post #: 9

- 12/10/2001 2:36:00 AM

Whitestreak

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/27/2001
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline

For the Normandy landings, I've been having similar troubles. I do note that the big naval gun does *not* appear in the artillery dialog. It appears only in the units listing. I've been able to take out many bunkers with the support landing craft and DDs. You have to maneuver the boats into position to see the bunkers, and you can indirect fire onto a hex with no visible targets. You can't, however, call them for fire beyond their LOS. Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how to those &*$% gliders to come in at Utah. Reinforcements, in the units list, show their arrival turn. Those gliders, though, they're showing as being available on turn one.

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Post #: 10

- 12/10/2001 3:09:00 AM

Sabathius42

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

I seem to have made a slight error in my original post. I played the Omaha Beach landing, not the Utah, although most of the issues should be similar. Anyway, I just fired back up at the start of the Omaha scenario and double checked, and the 14" naval gun shows up on the unit list (its the second unit designated M) but not in the Artillery Selection screen. I checked both pages. I am thinking perhaps this is a problem with the unit designations, as the other M unit is a different type of artillery (80something inch mortar). Perhaps the engine can only handle one artillery unit per letter designation? Enquiring minds want to know.
DS

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- 12/10/2001 4:12:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

On the off chance, I loaded that scenario as the US (Im using SPWAW 6.1) and I also see M0 as 14in guns in the unit listing but it does not appear in the bombardment listing. Could it actually be one of those unmentionable things??

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"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

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Post #: 12

- 12/10/2001 7:13:00 AM

Anthony_MatrixForum

Posts: 124
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Melbourne, Vic, Australia
Status: offline

Hi This is not a B**, but a possible problem resulting from the many different OOB revisions and some of the older scenarios. The unit type for the bad 16" guns is 204, which (examined using the supplied OOB editor) is not associated with any unit in the current OOB. Using Freds editor, I changed the unit type to 202 (Large naval guns)and it now shows up on the
artillary list...... This one really needs to go back to the scenario designer (WBW) for a proper fix, but given the changes due in v7, maybe just wait for a bit :-) Anthony

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Post #: 13

- 12/10/2001 10:49:00 AM

chief

Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline

Sabathius: I found the best way to attack/destroy a fortification like a bunker was to lay smoke around it and attack from the front (gun port) with engineers (preferance to flamethrower) after surpressimg it with attacks from its blind sides, tops and backs don't do much and use up ammo. Don't send in an engineering squad alone if you can avoid it, the game will eat them up. Attacks from the 1 or 11 o'clock position also work with Flamers. Good Hunting.

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- 12/10/2001 11:55:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

I took a quick look at the scenario myself .. not only does the 14 inch arty not show up ..but the mines and tank obsticals are quantified as (10) in a hex .. attemting to display the 14 inch Gun unit from the Unit Roster gets a halftrack Icon and centers on an LCVP ..I suspect the scenario is suffering from versionitis .

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Post #: 15

- 12/12/2001 1:02:00 AM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

BTW: Scenario designers can make forts visible with Freds WaWEditor, by setting the "visible" flag, so the bunkers are (and stay) visible right from games start! ___________
Harry

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Post #: 16

- 12/12/2001 2:29:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by James Coscinu:
Yeah, I've noted the same problem also. The suppression add seems a fine idea, but how come do even elite forces (like a raider squad) gain superb suppression as trying to assault a bunker from behind? ...

Suppression represents several things but the end effect is that a unit is less capable of fighting when suppressed. This can be because their weapon is not behaving properly and they are attending to it. This can even occur after a succesful attack due to adreneline overload. If you've every been in a fight and won, you may feel very weak as the adreneline rush starts to taper off. There are other factors, perhaps the unit just used up a satchel charge and needs time to prepare another, etc. There have been many posts about the dumb but very real things that happen in war. In one case a rocket launcher could not fire as the asst gunner wandered off and the gunner could not pull the safety pin then the grenedier got mud in his barrell. Perhaps this happened to your elite units.

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