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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

 
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 6:28:13 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
If I run my eye across the Korsun Pocket map, I can spot one graphic and understand in an instant what it means. Before computers I would have needed to consult half a dozen charts.



What's killed PC wargames is that there are more luddites than people like Joe 98. People confuse the amount of time it takes to make a turn with depth. Unfortunately, most of the "depth" is deciphering the interface and making repetative mouseclicks. Korsun Pocket and Highway To The Reich are shining examples of how the genre can be made great and accessible.

It's just a shame that accessibility and graphics are dirty words to most wargamers.



Amen

Games like PacWar and WiR while awesome back in the day SUCK in todays times.
The very dull graphics and piss poor interfaces just dont cut it any longer.
WiTP is an example of how changing times are going to make a much better wargame.
Its deeper, prettier and has an interface that isnt archaic and cryptic to most users.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 7:00:58 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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What the heck, I am going to read it as a compliment. I am clearly so well known, and that sort of baggage, that people seem more interested in putting down my comments, instead of trying to understand them.

I guess I will just have to take it as you guys gunning for the old pro, what else am I to think?

Joe98, that was a nice image. Pity it wasn't "fancy".

It is colourful, nicely rendered, 2d and look down perspective. And not even remotely new radical or any of what annoys me.

Now Blitzkreig is another matter. And I am sure Sudden Strike 3 will be very pretty too.
Then there is Code Name Panzers. And almost any game of their sort.

Those are "fancy". Rendered in oh so spiffy 3d and everything.

And judging from comments I am seeing, not all that tangibly credible as a serious wargamers wargame.

PacWar and WiR are indeed "old" looking. But they only suffer from interfaces that are not as efficient as the latest designs. The most efficient interface out there is the one for Strategic Command.

I have HTTR, and I rather like it. I have to say I am glad real time can be made real credible. Until HTTR I frankly didn't think anyone out there knew how.
With some luck, the designer will grace us with 5 or 6 follow on titles for other famous battles.

Korsun is a good game, only thing is, I am not big on that battle. I am planning on trying to get the Normandy one.
I hope that design generates several battles as well.

When I say "fancy", I am talking about the obsession with 3d.
With the exception of a tank sim, I have no use for 3d for the most part.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 5:11:58 PM   
mavraam


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More than any other type of software, high end computer games and the people willing to plunk down $50 for them are responsible for the incredibly fast development of PC's. Outside of video games there are very few applications that people use on a regular basis that come anywhere neer using up the processor speed, memory, disk access and graphics of a modern PC.

It is because of them that you can walk into Circuit City and plunk down $120 bucks and get a high end graphics card with its own 3D processor on board.

I started programming on a Commodore 64. I remember writing a joystick reader in assembly back then. Took me forever to get a black rectangle on a white screen to move smoothly when I used the stick. If you had told me then, that we would have PC's like we do today, I and everyone else would have said you were nuts. It seemed inconceivable.

The other factor, love them or hate them, was Microsoft. By monopolizing the OS market, they made it much easier for PC game developers because they effectively had only one platform to target. It doesn't really matter if Windows was the best, what mattered is that it was on 95% of the PC's in the world. That's a big target.

Add direct X which fixes many of Windows inadequacies in handling graphics cards, game controllers, sound, networking and you have a world class platform for game development.

And that allows game programmers to build bigger maps with better graphics and better AI and more units and more realistic physics models and all that adds up to better games.

And that drives better graphics cards and better processors and faster memory...

And the cycle goes on and all PC users benefit from the reduced costs and improved performance even if they never invade the beaches of Normandy with their little electronic armies!

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 6:21:25 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Wargame designers shoulnt care if people dont want to upgrade...its there loss,not the designers."

Well actually no that is not to brilliant a stance. Because if your audience is to many people like me, and coming from a market whic is already small, then it is also likely if you want to make graphically intense games, you might just have to forget wargames.
Actual wargames that is.



The audience isnt people like you,you are a minority just like the ALL the people on this board are...let me explain so I dont lose you and youre attention span.

Its a fact that only MAYBE 5% of wargamers even contribute to ANY forums.

For wargames to survive they are gonna have to draw in NEW players,not just try to "bring back" old players to the genre.

You take some newbie who is thinking about getting into wargames and show him the back of even a good game like KP and chances are he will say "no thanks" just from looking at the back of the box.

Show him somthing like CM,SA or some shots of some of the new 3d games coming out and chances are they will say "thats more like it".Im not talking about shooters either...strictly wargames.

Its the "guts" of the game that make it,the graphics are just a bonus.

The wargaming crowd is evolving,older players are being lost to real-life,to busy,not into it anymore...whatever.This means,like everything else in life,they need to be replaced in order for our hobby to continue to advance and thrive.

This wont happen if the games dont appeal to *gasp*...younger players.

If you look at games outside of wargames...I saw atari mentioned...I still play asteroids.Does this mean if atari ever puts out another version of this game they wont advance the graphics?

If wargame devs thought like Les,we wouldnt get anywhere.Fact is the genre would have been dead a long time ago.

Lets look at the evolution of wargames.

Table top board games.
Miniature wargaming
DOS games
2d chit pc games
2d RTS ala CC
3d RTS or WEGO

Once again...why go backwards?In order to please the minority of a minority?

Chit style games have there place but to think its the future or the only way is insane.

If the majority of wargamers had the views Les does the genre would have died off a LONG time ago.

If you chose to stay stuck in the stone age than so be it but dont stand in the way of progress.If you so chose to protest the advancement of gaming then so be it,you are only hurting yourself and the gaming community.

Poubt and watch the world go by...its youre choice.

Lead,follow or get out of the way.

Leading is out of the question,cant follow somthing he doesnt understand,so that leaves one option....get out of the way.

< Message edited by riverbravo -- 6/7/2004 4:23:20 PM >


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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 6:21:43 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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I can't argue that PC game demands have likely played a part in hardware development.

But, it is not absolutely certain that hardware would NOT have pressed forward in the absence of games.

Still, its a neither here not there situation with me. It's not nearly how pretty the game lucks that determines it's worth where wargames are concerned, but rather, how credible the simulation that counts.

You don't need "accuracy" in a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
It is not important if the simulation is "credible" in a game of Grand Theft Auto.
Because they are just visual amusements entirely.

It's when you tell me you are going to put me in command of the forces of a famous moment in history, that you better have your facts in order while the game is running.

Because a pretty sham, is going to be just a sham that is pretty, no matter how awesomely pretty that sham is.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 6:42:45 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1


It's when you tell me you are going to put me in command of the forces of a famous moment in history, that you better have your facts in order while the game is running.

Because a pretty sham, is going to be just a sham that is pretty, no matter how awesomely pretty that sham is.



Ok, you are in command...this little chit represents the "Regina Rifles"...Now,do youre duty as a commander

Ok,so it goes from graphics to the actual AI.

Funny how when people dont see it his way the subject changes or its a sham.Ok,I'll bite.

Thats were technology comes in.

In order to have a proper wargame (if its based on history and not some space deal) then you must have youre facts in order as well as AP values,ranges,ammo,fire ratios,accuracey,ammo loads,correct number of men in each unit,correct terrain,Moral...etc etc.

You dont get this without progressing.

Everyone here is in agreement (at least I hope) that without a good AI the game sucks...no matter what...I know this first hand....trust me

The trick is getting every thing to mesh together.

If you dont try than it will never get anywhere.Kinda like putting a man on the moon...I guess one day a man will just appear on the moon?

Its a trial and error thing...not all wargames will live up to everones expectations.But without trying it becomes a lost cause as well.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 7:00:33 PM   
Real and Simulated Wars

 

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Nice topic,
I will shoot some disarranged thoughts on the subject.
1) I read somewhere that because computer programmer's time is becoming more and more expensive and that hardware is becoming more and more cheap, computer programs are becoming bigger. Programmers dump piles of (sometimes unneccessary) data to process on more and more capable hardware. Optimization is not important, more capable hardware is the philosophy.
2) A clear example of the previous comes from the industry of flight simulators. Let's take two flight sims Flanker 2.5 and its follower Lock On, Modern Air Combat. The two were done by the same company. You fly an hypothetical mission in F 2.5: 50 frames per second. You fly the same mission in LOMAC: 15 frames per second. The cause: new revamped graphics in LOMAC. A quick search on the forums for LOMAC will make clear to you that the low fps is YOUR fault. Come on! You should get new flashy hardware for LOMAC (why did you believe the minimum specs posted in the box?). And (more stunningly) if you do have new flashy hardware YOU are supposed to optimize your hardware. And people go trying to clean their sinful computers out of glitches that stop LOMAC from runing as it should.
Not all flight sims are the same. IL-2 Sturmovik shines in performance when LOMAC barely stutters all the time.
Now, is there more substance in LOMAC? Something you feel like an improvement apart from the graphics? Some new planes, that's it. Besides that a boring, scripted predictable virtual battlefield as usual. Is LOMAC a significantly better representation of a conflict from fighter pilot point of view? No, defenetively not.
Was LOMAC successful? Yeah, toped the scores in reviews. Post in the forums go like this: this sim is amazing, the graphics are superb! They don't care if a barely believable mission (10 planes in the air or so) crawls in their computers.
Is all about the graphics, I am afraid. People wants them and developers respond. What is frightening is the fact that people is willing to accept more and more dull games at the expense of graphics. Developers have sensed this since a long time. A recent comment by a leader at UbiSoft made it clear to me: " we are not in the GEEK games business anymore".
3) Coming back to war games. I find sometimes very though to "read" the many variables in the battlefield. Where is my division located? Is it a good terrain to defend? Should I expect heavy losses if I leave it an extra turn in its position? That's where I welcome new graphics. Anything that makes it less though to realize what your situation is.

Edited for a missing word and other things.

< Message edited by Chelco -- 6/7/2004 5:40:37 PM >

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 7:11:35 PM   
Real and Simulated Wars

 

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Ah!
An additional thought:
Nothing would please more than to see my son (now 2 years old) getting into wargames when he grows up. I make that extensive to teens and young people who are now into FPS and other genres. Well, without some attractive graphics, the genre will never atract them.

< Message edited by Chelco -- 6/7/2004 5:23:05 PM >

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 7:40:12 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chelco

Ah!
An additional thought:
Nothing would please more than to see my son (now 2 years old) getting into wargames when he grows up. I make that extensive to teens and young people who are now into FPS and other genres. Well, without some attractive graphics, the genre will never atract them.


My son is 13 soon to be 14.

He has tried KP and HTTR and it was a no-go.

CC....yea.

Being how new wargamers or would be new gamers are younger and are USED to more bells and whistles means that dont be suprised if bells and whistles become the norm.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 7:57:09 PM   
Real and Simulated Wars

 

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Hi riverbravo!
Nice to hear from you!
I have not doubts that, as he grows, he will be into those two. He is in the right path! He has seen the light!
Joke aside, do you two guys H2H in CC?

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 8:08:28 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chelco

Ah!
An additional thought:
Nothing would please more than to see my son (now 2 years old) getting into wargames when he grows up. I make that extensive to teens and young people who are now into FPS and other genres. Well, without some attractive graphics, the genre will never atract them.


My son is 13 soon to be 14.

He has tried KP and HTTR and it was a no-go.

CC....yea.

Being how new wargamers or would be new gamers are younger and are USED to more bells and whistles means that dont be suprised if bells and whistles become the norm.


Cc is a good start for a 14 year old. When he´s really interested in WW2 or "the art of war" then he most probably also switch to the more abstract wargames like KP or HTTR. If not, well, then he might be like me and simply prefers "to be down there with the grunts" . Which simply ain´t happening for me with counters, sorry.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 6/8/2004 1:08:51 AM >


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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 8:57:46 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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I say this and I say that, but truth is, I just don't know if wargaming with be an enduring past time.

My son is a contradiction.
He's in grade 4, and has been rated as reading at a grade 8 level. He isn't dumb.

But the second he gets any sort of difficulty in a console game, it's online for a cheat code. Life so many of his current era, to used to to much for to little effort in entertainment areas me thinks.

Wargames, if the software is made right, don't have cheat options. The game requires you actually know what you are doing (if the game is any good at all).
I am not sure he will every really care squat about wargames if the game requires you to master it or fail.

I like the challenge myself. When I win, it was because I was superior to the challenge. The last thing I want is a cheat code.
Pleasing to the eye is acceptible, as long as the designer didn't spend all his time on it.
If all the designer is good for is pleasing to the eye, then it is likely he should team up with a real wargamer to make sure it looks like a pleasing "wargame" when he is done.

People can say what they will, but I personally feel Strategic Command IS pleasing to the eye.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 9:18:05 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck


Cc is a good start for a 14 year old. When he´s really interested in WW2 or "the art of war" then he most probably also switch to the more abstract wargames like KP or HTTR. If not, well, then he might be like me and simply prefers "to be down there with the grunts" . Which simply ain´t happening for me with counters, sorry.


Exactly.

I think a lot of gamers want to get "down and dirty" with the troops.

They think of playing wargames as kinda like "playing army" or whatever you called it as kid with plastic guns going "bang bang ...youre dead".

I can remember playing some really heated games of CC atthe zone.I was totaly into it,nothing else was going on in the world exept this battle Im fighting.Wow,that stuff was fun....let me stress that again..."WOW...THAT WAS FUN!!!"

To me CC was the best.I have yet to ever "get off" on a wargame like I did in the "glory days" of CC.

Maybe its me but I just cant get the same enjoyment out of it by moving around chits.

Not only do i like graphics but also sound...please bring back "the blood"...it was great.While being serious it also had some "tongue in cheek" sounds that made it kewl and FUN at the same time.

Not only was everthing there to see and hear but you also had to think...all the stuff great wargames are made of.

A lot of stress is put into AI,I will say straight up the SP AI in CC sucked.CC2 seemed the best as far as SP battles went.

I feel wargames shine in MP mode.Nothings funner than playing another human...win or lose..its a hoot.

When the majority of people think about war more than likely they think about death,bullets flying,explosions,screams and all the other "bells and whistles" that go along with it.

If it conjours up that image,a pretty accurate image at that,then,shouldnt the game represent these things.

I guess when some people think of war they think of the German high command sitting around a big map pushing around markers and making battle plans.....cool enough.

Some folks like playing the Field Marshall/General role and thats fine and dandy.

I prefer the role of a captain or somthing...A few squads or maybe a company or two with some support and THROW DOWN,IN YOURE FACE,LOUD,UGLY and TOTALY IMERSIVE war.

weres that darn CC disc

How many of you guys are still playing CC in these parts.

Ive been begging for some kind of tournament,wether it be CC,CM or SA.

Lets get some MP action going!

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/7/2004 9:24:39 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chelco

Hi riverbravo!
Nice to hear from you!
I have not doubts that, as he grows, he will be into those two. He is in the right path! He has seen the light!
Joke aside, do you two guys H2H in CC?


Im working on it.

Unfortunatly the shooter games like COD and Wolfenstien he will play to death.

He is coming around,maybe the civil war is more his thing since we have been to a battlefield or two.He can relate to it better since it happened on home turf so to speak.

I figure one day his interest in ww2 history and games will be pretty big.

I mostly let him decide,I mite give a little nudge in a certain direction and if he doesnt really dig it I dont push the subject on him.He will come around....I hope.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/8/2004 12:36:01 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

Ive been begging for some kind of tournament,wether it be CC,CM or SA.


Tournamenthouse.com is till doing big tournaments for all three of them.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 6:51:51 PM   
CCB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The question I'm posing is, are the minimum PC requirements of new titles pushing you away?


No. I have more PC wargames now than I could ever hope to finish playing if I lived to be a million. (see Talonsoft's Campaign series ) 3d games just don't interest me that much. I prefer PC wargames that look and play like my favorite old board games. (see HPS sims Panzer campaigns and Squad Battles series.)

Also, if you got Steel Panthers, you shouldn't need another wargame.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 7:20:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Looking at past threads and comments both here and abroad, I have to only conclude one thing.

I have seen plenty of wargames I don't yet own, that use older system specs than newer system specs.

I have my eye set on picking up cheap CC4 and CC5 through CDAccess.com for instance.
I can say there are a dozen John Tiller titles I likely would like to have if I had the cash.

I have also seen in recent years a growing number of board games I would like to buy.

Sure those titles are either being sold by after market venders not helping the designer any, or the titles are not mainstream titles.
Is that my fault? nope.

I am not now mainstream, and frankly, I have no interest in being mainstream.

Mainstream wants the sexy looking games, so fine make them if you can.

But, what I would like, is to see companies that want to sell to me, mr I don't want those sexy pretty games realising the sort of games I want, will NEVER be mainstream if done the way I want them done.

Don't hold your breath waiting for me to ever gush over games based solely on their visual appeal.
I for instance, think "visually" Strategic Command is quite pleasing to the eye.
I like the sound effects in John Tiller games eh.
But I also like how you can't escape the reality you actually ARE playing a wargame while playing one.
They bear no similarity with a console game, and that is ok.

Want to get rich, sell to mainstream. Want to get famous, sell to those that will give that credit :)

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 8:57:10 PM   
KG Erwin


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Many good points raised here, so perhaps my fears of wargaming "spec"-ing itself out of existence are unfounded. Perhaps my concerns are more geared to the aging of the wargamer demographic. I was born in the middle of the baby-boom generation, and we're the ones that embraced board wargames in the 60s & 70s and then made the transition to computer games from the late 80s to today.

I'm encouraged by the steady growth of the Matrix membership, which implies that the following generations are still being attracted to the wargame genre, though maybe not in the same numbers. Les touched upon this, but in reality, this could be a good thing, if new games based on new wars slowly die out for lack of subject matter. Once again, the baby-boomer game designers had a wealth of material to draw upon from "The Century of War" we were born in.

So, if in 50 years time, there wouldn't be any major wars to "game", then I should be happy if the genre no longer had any reason to exist.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 10:39:20 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Having read through the thread I'll stick my 'two-pennorth' in.

None of my wargames stretch the 2 year old system I use. Looking to the future I can't see anything coming up that will over the next two years. 'Fancy graphics' almost certainly won't feature in upcoming games from 'Panther', '2by3' or 'SSG', indeed their graphics aren't a big leap forward over TOAW. However, they will require greater pc processing power as they aim for ever more realistic (and complex) combat modelling. This is largely why wargames are taking longer to develop (that's Grigsby's excuse anyway). At the moment it seems we could have quality graphics or realistic combat modelling but we can't have both. Yet!

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 10:40:13 PM   
mavraam


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quote:

So, if in 50 years time, there wouldn't be any major wars to "game", then I should be happy if the genre no longer had any reason to exist.


Don't hold your breath.

We all like to think that the world has finally put war behind us, but as long as there are oppressive regimes in the world, there will be war. And we are a long way from a free world.

The best we can hope for is that the only wars will be wars of liberation, not conquest.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/11/2004 10:40:24 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Man I sooooo wish war and warfare and conflict gaming could become boring and dull due to it no longer being part of what it is to be part of this race.

Not expecting that to happen any time soon. But it is not like I believe WW2 to hold infinite charm, it might one day become "dull" to the point no one cares much any more.

We will be pondering these matters though for another 40 ish years at least yet though.
After that I suppose the last of the board gaming age group will be worm food mostly :)

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 12:49:58 AM   
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I have several WW2 wargames, but really that's not why I play them. It's the thoughtful strategy that gets me. I'd just as soon (and do) play sci-fi turn-based economic/empire games. Lots of detail, big manuals, complex processes to manage and master, and a good group of people on a forum to discuss stuff with.

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Post #: 52
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 1:31:06 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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I think the reason I like WW2, is because it was a big war, invloved the whole planet, many nations and wasn't mired in questionable politics.

It was cut and dried, us vs them, actual declarations of war, large sums of forces, major tech advances.

The sort of things you can build countless simulations out of.

Modern stuff, well it is sometimes to depressing.

I still recall the break up of Yugoslavia, and the predominant thought being, we humans just never learn a bloody thing no matter how many die trying to teach us.

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Post #: 53
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 1:53:58 AM   
New York Jets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The question I'm posing is, are the minimum PC requirements of new titles pushing you away? Is the PC wargame genre advancing itself into extinction? This is an important question, as the best new games require top-notch PCs. Do you really want to buy a new PC just to play a game? SPWaW can be played on most older PCs. Combat Leader and Close Assault will require higher-end machines. Is this the problem? Should new wargames retro-fit to our obsolete PCs, or should the gamers cough up the cash to upgrade?


It depends on what type of 'wargame' you're talking about. Medal of Honor? BAAAHH! Tiller's Battleground Series or Panzer Campaigns (or most HPS titles) or Uncommon Valor/SPWaW? Now you're talking!

As someone who has spent a large portion of the last 30 yrs standing over/looking at hex maps all O have to say is, it's not about the graphics, it's about the game play.

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Post #: 54
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 1:54:00 AM   
miclogic


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Nice thoughts all around. One challenge presented by the genre in and of itself is the learning curve, period. Good interface or not, beautiful graphics or not, without some level of understanding on the part of the player most wargames simply will never make it past an initial, cursory glance.

To further make my point, I present myself and my 4 brothers. I am in my mid-30's and I've been playing war games from back in the Ancient Art of War days on something like a TRS-80 or something like that. Having been instilled with an initial love from this simplified game, I've gone on to read many books on military history, biographies of military personnel, watch movies about war, visit battle sites whenever I get the chance, and of course, play just about every war game I could get my hands on since then. (It didn't hurt that I became a programmer and thus had a constant need to upgrade my computer hardware, allowing me to keep pace with technological improvements). My 4 brothers, on the other hand, range from in ages from 19-34 and never had these influences working for them. They only recently acquired computers of their own (within the last 5 years) and my efforts to get them interested in war games has fizzled on every front with very few exceptions, ie., Call of Duty, Blitzkrieg, and of course the online games like Vietnam or Road to Rome, etc.) I love Highway to the Reich, for example, but trying to help them come to love the game simply doesn't work because the manual doesn't provide them with enough information to play it well. Yes, it explains the interface and how to make things happen the right way, but how can they WIN? (Well, they could invest another $20 in the strategy guide, of couse, but GOOD LUCK trying to get another $20 from someone who doesn't like the game yet anyway!) Without some background into what type of units work with other units, what their roles are, how they operate properly and coordinate with each other, and a background in the history of the battles, they have little if any hope of winning and that is simply NO FUN. When you boil it all down, games have to be FUN or why will we play them? If I want to learn, I have several options, I can read a book or watch a movie, etc, both of which would probably help me learn faster and better, or at least be more enjoyable, why would I try to hack my way through 50 hours of gametime trial and error before I can play properly? Pick up one of the above mentioned games, however, and you can play at an acceptable level in no time at all, in part due to their simplistic nature.

My point is, wargames can be fun and immersive, most of us have experienced that, but not without the right kind of understanding on the player's part. If publishers want to open up a larger market with new players, they might want to consider making wonderful tools like the strategy guide for HTTR a part of the game package to begin with, because that is what this newer market of players NEED in order to enjoy the game at the level they want. They want to WIN, and they have a chance right from the get go, not be required to invest weeks of their lives before they have a prayer at playing head-to-head with another player.

Anyway, I doubt I've made any kind of point, much less the point I am intending to make, but it's my 2 cents anyway. Enjoy!

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Post #: 55
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 1:59:02 AM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Want to get rich, sell to mainstream. Want to get famous, sell to those that will give that credit :)



koo-koo

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 3:38:53 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Nice imitation of a clock Riverbravo :)

But were you trying to say something?

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Post #: 57
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 3:40:10 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Miclogic, are you the same Miclogic from Warfare HQ?

I only ask, because you seem to have abandoned your thread there asking for sales (if it is the same person that is).

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 58
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 4:12:56 AM   
New York Jets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

The above quote is why wargames are dieing.


Wargames are not dying. I don't mean to be rude or picayune but this is the second time I've seen you spell the word this way, so I don't believe it to be a typo.

<snip>

quote:

Why is there an unwritten rule that wargames must have crappy graphics and only use minimal requirements?

You can make good wargames without the bells and whistles but.....why?Just to please "old timers" who cant see the advantages of a graphicaly superior game.Who wants to read charts or strain there eyes to see if a unit is destroyed?If its possible to represent this on the screen then do it.


Wargames don't have to have crappy graphics to be good. I'll settle for a good AI. As one of those 'old timers' you decry so much I'd be interested to have you give me one example where the 'bells & whistles' have compelled you to continue playing an otherwise piece of crap war game? Us 'old timers' prefer historically accurate and well developed games. Great, flashy graphics are 'gravy'.


<snip>

quote:

I would think "dumbing down" games for 5% of the wargaming crowd who is more than likely cry about it anyway is damaging to designers and all involved.

Keep on pushing it as far as you go and dont sweat the "bored game" crowd.

Whats next?....Lets make models with less pieces and parts so we dont have to pay an extra 2 bucks.


Actually, 'dumbing down' is what the 'great graphics over great game play' crowd have done to war gaming. Great graphics are fine. First I want to see a great game with a great interface and one that is historically accurate and compelling to play. If you can't do that, then screw great graphics.

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Post #: 59
RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/12/2004 4:13:13 AM   
miclogic


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Yes, Les, it is in fact me. Back in town only today and haven't made all of my rounds. Apologies to all.

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Post #: 60
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