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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> quick question... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
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quick question... - 6/15/2004 12:45:08 PM   
SamRo

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/23/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Suspect already answered but will subs historically capable of flying subs be able to do so?
Post #: 1
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:02:55 PM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		yes

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RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:22:04 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		What game are you testing? I have seen no flying subs launched from other subs. In fact there are no flying subs at all. Although there is a sub called Flying Fish.

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 3
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:23:59 PM   
Rainerle

 

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline 		Raising old question:
When will sub vs. sub be included ?

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Post #: 4
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:25:23 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		When subs fly.

< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 6/15/2004 7:26:44 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:41:56 PM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		your in a jolly mood tonigh Tired, you get laid or something

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I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

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Post #: 6
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:44:06 PM   
SamRo

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/23/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		opps....

right so there are no flying sub's but subs capable of lunching aircraft will beable to do so then?

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 7
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:46:09 PM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		yes

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

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Post #: 8
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:50:06 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Wait a minute.

You mean this game will have NO FLYING SUBS?

That's it; I quit.

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Fear the kitten!

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RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 2:51:03 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

your in a jolly mood tonigh Tired, you get laid or something


As far as I can recall I have not been passed into this world by a chicken recently.

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Post #: 10
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 3:17:19 PM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		oh thats good

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

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Post #: 11
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 3:54:32 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		Little does Raver know I slipped a rocket propelled I-Boat into the OOB for our game (Iboat with six V2's strapped to the back).

I plan to launch her from the Tokyo launch pad - if she lands in the ocean on the west coast, her crew should still be alive, so she'll ditch the rockets and become an ultra long range sub, or if she hits land (she's aimed at LA) her crew will be dead - but I'll have packed her FULL of propoganda leaflets . . . that way I win either way.

I was also thinking that if Germany can lend me enough v2s, I might be able to retrofit the Nates into something useful . . .

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Post #: 12
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 4:04:06 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		Better hope he doesn't have 800mm ASAA (anti-sub anti-air) guns stationed at LA.

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Post #: 13
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 4:21:14 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Raising old question:
When will sub vs. sub be included ?


That was a Cold War era thing, when us and the Soviets developed wolfpack tactics with nuclear attack subs to go after the "boomers". The sub on sub engagements, in WWII, if they occurred at all, were probably surface engagements using the deck gun.

(in reply to Rainerle)
Post #: 14
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 4:38:41 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

That was a Cold War era thing, when us and the Soviets developed wolfpack tactics with nuclear attack subs to go after the "boomers". The sub on sub engagements, in WWII, if they occurred at all, were probably surface engagements using the deck gun.


These Japanese subs were destroyed by Allied submarines in Pacific 1942-45, 15% of all IJN subs losses. BTW, almost all were sunk by torpedoes

I-4,
I-122,
I-28,
I-29,
I-34,
I-42,
I-43,
I-64,
I-166,
I-168,
I-73,
I-183,
I-351,
I-364,
I-365,
I-371,
I-373,
RO-112,
RO-113,
RO-115.

< Message edited by Subchaser -- 6/15/2004 5:40:37 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 5:13:26 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

That was a Cold War era thing, when us and the Soviets developed wolfpack tactics with nuclear attack subs to go after the "boomers". The sub on sub engagements, in WWII, if they occurred at all, were probably surface engagements using the deck gun.


These Japanese subs were destroyed by Allied submarines in Pacific 1942-45, 15% of all IJN subs losses. BTW, almost all were sunk by torpedoes

I-4,
I-122,
I-28,
I-29,
I-34,
I-42,
I-43,
I-64,
I-166,
I-168,
I-73,
I-183,
I-351,
I-364,
I-365,
I-371,
I-373,
RO-112,
RO-113,
RO-115.


Yea, and probably in a surface engagement much the same way a sub sank any other ship. There were no "Red Storm Rising/Hunt For Red October" sub on sub style engagements in WWII. The ASW technology simply wasn't there yet....

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 16
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 5:26:43 PM   
Radzy

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Warsaw, Poland
Status: offline 		If You take look at Sensuikan on the famous Nihon Kaigun homepage and search the fates of subs mentioned by Subchaser, you will find, that many of them were sunk by torpedo hit.

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"When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears
Ains a year say a prayer faur me
Close yir een an remember me"
Sgt. MacKenzie

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 17
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 5:44:54 PM   
soeren

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Bayern/Germany
Status: offline 		It was common for allied subs to hunt for axis subs, particulary the RN did it a lot ( at least in europe ). As subs spend most of their time surfaced, they are not invulnerable to an torpedo attack.

< Message edited by soeren -- 6/15/2004 3:45:12 PM >

(in reply to Radzy)
Post #: 18
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 6:38:14 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		ULTRA intercepts allowed the USN subs to intercept and "lie in wait" for them. The Japanese sub would show up (often right on schedule). One torpedo is all it takes to kill a sub 99.9% of the time

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Post #: 19
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 6:45:56 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I remember reading about a US submarine, can't remember which, that would actually try to track the Japanese subs by the interference that their radar would cause on the US submarine's radar. Apparently very few IJN ships had radar, but most subs had it. (this must have been towards the end of the war) Unfortunately I can't remember the exact reference.

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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
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Post #: 20
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 7:25:47 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Yea, and probably in a surface engagement much the same way a sub sank any other ship. There were no "Red Storm Rising/Hunt For Red October" sub on sub style engagements in WWII. The ASW technology simply wasn't there yet....


Sorry, but I have to post some more statistics: 46 enemy subs (20 Japanese subs and 26 German U-boats) were sunk by Allied submarines during the war. In return U-boats killed 9 Allied subs, Japanese submariners claimed 4 boats, although only one is confirmed kill. So…56 submarines were lost in sub vs sub combat during ww2, this number is not so miserable as you think.

Almost all these subs were sunk by torpedoes as I said, and I don’t see anything unusual here. Subs of that era weren’t truly submarines, as it was pointed out they spent most of their time during a mission on surface and during this time there was no difference between them and surface vessels, they all were targets for submerged subs, no need for sophisticated ASW equipment here.

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Post #: 21
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 7:35:34 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		For this to be in the game one sub would have to be determined to be submerged hunting while the other would be sailing along on the surface. SO basically someone would get the jump on the other and treat it as a normal sub on ship combat.

I can see it now.

"Allied fanboys got their way, their subs are always submerged and kill my subs. How come my subs are never submerged?"

(in reply to SamRo)
Post #: 22
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 7:46:18 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

"Allied fanboys got their way, their subs are always submerged and kill my subs. How come my subs are never submerged?"




I want some borrowed subs with 88mm deck guns

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Post #: 23
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 7:46:54 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

...one sub would have to be determined to be submerged hunting while the other would be sailing along on the surface...

Actually, if you look into it I believe you would find that most of the killer subs were on the surface too. Probably most of these sub-on-sub kills happened at night, when subs were likely to surfaced and charging batteries, and when detection of these extremely stealthy vessels would be most difficult. Radar would be a huge advantage....

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Fear the kitten!

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Post #: 24
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:05:06 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

For this to be in the game one sub would have to be determined to be submerged hunting while the other would be sailing along on the surface. SO basically someone would get the jump on the other and treat it as a normal sub on ship combat.

I can see it now.

"Allied fanboys got their way, their subs are always submerged and kill my subs. How come my subs are never submerged?"


I don’t want to say that missing sub vs sub combat is something worthy to loose sleep about, but in fact, it can be modeled quite easily. Here is one of possible way to do it -

Submarines should try to intercept and attack submarine TFs that move through their hex during execution phase, chance of such interception (not attack) should be quite low. Here we can assume that submarine that moves through a hex, which is current patrol zone of the enemy submarine(s), moves on surface while enemy sub on patrol is submerged. It should always be ambush, submerged sub on patrol attacks one that moves thru her hex on surface.

There were enough examples of successful “ASW” action of Allied subs without any help from ULTRA, kills by Taurus, Telemachus, Tautog, Batfish, by 3 Soviet subs etc. etc. Don’t forget that all allied subs were killed by axis subs without help of intel services of their navies.

< Message edited by Subchaser -- 6/15/2004 9:07:13 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:12:15 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Yea, and probably in a surface engagement much the same way a sub sank any other ship. There were no "Red Storm Rising/Hunt For Red October" sub on sub style engagements in WWII. The ASW technology simply wasn't there yet....


Sorry, but I have to post some more statistics: 46 enemy subs (20 Japanese subs and 26 German U-boats) were sunk by Allied submarines during the war. In return U-boats killed 9 Allied subs, Japanese submariners claimed 4 boats, although only one is confirmed kill. So…56 submarines were lost in sub vs sub combat during ww2, this number is not so miserable as you think.

Almost all these subs were sunk by torpedoes as I said, and I don’t see anything unusual here. Subs of that era weren’t truly submarines, as it was pointed out they spent most of their time during a mission on surface and during this time there was no difference between them and surface vessels, they all were targets for submerged subs, no need for sophisticated ASW equipment here.


Well I gathered the initial question of sub on sub combat was more pointed at fully submerged sub vs sub combat, ala Hunt For Red October where subs go at it, fully submerged using active sonar homing torps, which, of course, were non-existant in WWII. I image all those sunk subs killed by torp were hit and sunk while on the surface as any other ship was. And that kind of combat, is of course, realistic of the time.

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 26
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:13:13 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		I wasn't saying it shouldn't be in the game with my joke. I'm merely stating that it's a small part of operations and one that would for sure cause complaints when modeled because someone's sub would be given the advantage. For it to work whether one or both is on the surface someone is going to get the jump. But it's a moot point close to getting released. Maybe for a patch but that's a call I can't make.

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 27
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:16:34 PM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

What game are you testing? I have seen no flying subs launched from other subs. In fact there are no flying subs at all. Although there is a sub called Flying Fish.


Haven't been watching "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" recently I see. The Seaview had a flying sub. And since it was technically possible for the Japanese to have developed this during the war, I am demanding that it be put into the production cycle as of 1/1/46. If not, the game is broken.

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Post #: 28
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:22:29 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Watch it when you send your subs into bases with CD guns if trying to transport troops or lay mines!

*while we are on the sub topic*

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Post #: 29
RE: quick question... - 6/15/2004 8:29:44 PM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Watch it when you send your subs into bases with CD guns if trying to transport troops or lay mines!

*while we are on the sub topic*


Excuse me, sir. Are you suggesting that this is the quickest way to make a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea? And probably one-way?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 30
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