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UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 2:08:33 PM

Subchaser

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Sorry if it was already answered. When Matrix/2by3 are going to release retrofit patch for UV? I still have one UV pbem game going and it would be nice to see how WitP innovations work on 30 miles scale map. Thanks.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 2:19:19 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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We've been asking that for a while and keep in mind it all could change. When they get time the word is they are going to do a patch to put some refinements and tweaks into UV, but it's not going to be a major overhaul to bring UV up to WITP's interface. We've all pitched suggestions of what we'd like to see in the patch, but no decision has been made as WITP is the focus now. The priority is to get WITP released and then add some features in a follow on patch that didn't make the deadline. I think the main focus if they do anything will be some of the formulas and stuff under the hood. Alot of the screens and changes to what is displayed in WITP aren't going to change in UV I BELIEVE. I can't stress that this might change or never be done at all. That's just from what we've heard when we've asked over time if a new change we like will make it UV eventually.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 2:23:07 PM

Rainerle

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Will UV get cheaper when WitP is out ??
Not that it would affect me since I have the game for 2 years now, but it might bring in new players who have been scared off by the price so far.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 2:24:28 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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That's a Matrix decision that we have no info on. If they email and ask I'll put in a good word.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 7:38:54 PM

Subchaser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

We've been asking that for a while and keep in mind it all could change. When they get time the word is they are going to do a patch to put some refinements and tweaks into UV, but it's not going to be a major overhaul to bring UV up to WITP's interface. We've all pitched suggestions of what we'd like to see in the patch, but no decision has been made as WITP is the focus now. The priority is to get WITP released and then add some features in a follow on patch that didn't make the deadline. I think the main focus if they do anything will be some of the formulas and stuff under the hood. Alot of the screens and changes to what is displayed in WITP aren't going to change in UV I BELIEVE. I can't stress that this might change or never be done at all. That's just from what we've heard when we've asked over time if a new change we like will make it UV eventually.

I understand that major overhaul is impossible, I thought about basic features, which could be easily retrofitted into UV within a patch scope. I hope they will find some time to do it.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 7:49:08 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

I understand that major overhaul is impossible, I thought about basic features, which could be easily retrofitted into UV within a patch scope. I hope they will find some time to do it.

I doubt even 10% of what has changed could be done. But there are a number of bugs that we found that go right back to the UV code. These might be fixed, but you have to think about it this way. Time spent doing that is time not spent moving forward. UV has already gotten a fair number of patches. Where do you draw the line?

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:11:05 PM

Subchaser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Where do you draw the line?

Ask me when I will grab my WitP copy!

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:28:44 PM

siRkid

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Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:37:15 PM

kaleun

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Bomb alley!

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:39:10 PM

pad152

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If 2by3/matrix plans on doing a Med game, would it be based on the UV engine (30 mi per hex) or Witp (60 mi per hex)? Is there any future in the UV game engine? I think this may factor in new UV improvements.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:39:44 PM

Fallschirmjager

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I understand that major overhaul is impossible, I thought about basic features, which could be easily retrofitted into UV within a patch scope. I hope they will find some time to do it.

I doubt even 10% of what has changed could be done. But there are a number of bugs that we found that go right back to the UV code. These might be fixed, but you have to think about it this way. Time spent doing that is time not spent moving forward. UV has already gotten a fair number of patches. Where do you draw the line?

I say they issue the final UV patch.
They address all the known bugs and fix all the coding errors that they know of.
And then leave it at that.
Otherwise it turns into something like SpWaW...which is becoming like the Vietnam of games.

< Message edited by Fallschirmjager -- 6/15/2004 1:42:00 PM >

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:40:18 PM

Fallschirmjager

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

A new WiR

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:43:19 PM

tsimmonds

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With WitP in my CD/ROM I'll be like Homer Simpson with a doughnut: nothing else will matter. I expect my UV PBEM game will get dropped like a hot rock as we both dig in.....

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:44:45 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

If 2by3/matrix plans on doing a Med game, would it be based on the UV engine (30 mi per hex) or Witp (60 mi per hex)? Is there any future in the UV game engine? I think this may factor in new UV improvements.

Why spend much of any time at all making significant modifications to a game that has run its sales course? Major mods won't generate additional new sales so why bother? It's not like we are purchasing a long term maintenance contract with these games or anything.

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Post #: 14

RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:48:55 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

Why spend much of any time at all making significant modifications to a game that has run its sales course? Major mods won't generate additional new sales so why bother? It's not like we are purchasing a long term maintenance contract with these games or anything.

Thats my thoughts too. If we were talking about completely refitting UV, i'd see a point, but it was really a test bed to see if WitP could be done. WitP basically replaces UV. Lets focus on improving WitP with new features instead of retorfitting UV which will get deleted by everyone who buys WitP.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 8:49:14 PM

kaleun

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That's what's great about Matrix. They keep upgrading/modifying/improving games that they have put out, even if they won't make more money on them. I guess the upside is that once you buy from Matrix, you expect that level of service, and nothing else will do, so you will come back to Matrix for more.
(Kind of like what happens when you buy a Toyota)

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 9:06:15 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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There are a few formula tweaks I'd like to see ported over to UV to clean things up but other than that I'd rather start on War in Europe.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 9:08:11 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

That's what's great about Matrix. They keep upgrading/modifying/improving games that they have put out, even if they won't make more money on them. I guess the upside is that once you buy from Matrix, you expect that level of service, and nothing else will do, so you will come back to Matrix for more.
(Kind of like what happens when you buy a Toyota)

Some MAtrix games are based on a pretty mature set of core libraries (reusable kernel-level code) and some aren't. When you have a game like that, continually patching it is not too hard. But you will notice, Matrix never wholesale rewrites games (sans those WIP and WIR Dos titles). WitP basically has a completely reworked kernel (the engine) and from what we hear is a REPLACEMENT game for UV. UV appears, in hindsight, more and more to be nothing but a "Beta" game for WitP. Kind of a feasability study.

Now once maybe WitP stablizes, may that will be the reusable kernel for other follow-on games. But then again, over on the tech forum, I get the impression they are moving to yet again, to a completely new game engine design using structured disk files, and some OOP paradigms, so that may not be the case either....

But long term, it is Matrix or 2X3's best interest to develop an underlying turn based wargame engine that is reusable for years to come, based on modern data and object oriented designs, and then start spitting out games using that kernel, much like companies have been doing with the Unreal engine, rather than reinventing the kernel over and over again..... And if it's solid enough, they could even license the engine itself to other gaming companies just like Unreal does with theirs...

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 6/15/2004 7:09:55 PM >

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 9:12:18 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

That's what's great about Matrix. They keep upgrading/modifying/improving games that they have put out, even if they won't make more money on them. I guess the upside is that once you buy from Matrix, you expect that level of service, and nothing else will do, so you will come back to Matrix for more.
(Kind of like what happens when you buy a Toyota)

Some MAtrix games are based on a pretty mature set of core libraries (reusable kernel-level code) and some aren't. When you have a game like that, continually patching it is not too hard. But you will notice, Matrix never wholesale rewrites games (sans those WIP and WIR Dos titles). WitP basically has a completely reworked kernel (the engine) and from what we hear is a REPLACEMENT game for UV. UV appears, in hindsight, more and more to be nothing but a "Beta" game for WitP. Kind of a feasability study.

Now once maybe WitP stablizes, may that will be the reusable kernel for other follow-on games. But then again, over on the tech forum, I get the impression they are moving to yet again, to a completely new game engine design using structured disk files, and some OOP paradigms, so that may not be the case either....

But long term, it is Matrix or 2X3's best interest to develop an underlying turn based wargame engine that is reusable for years to come, based on modern data and object oriented designs, and then start spitting out games using that kernel, much like companies have been doing with the Unreal engine, rather than reinventing the kernel over and over again..... And if it's solid enough, they could even license the engine itself to other gaming companies just like Unreal does with theirs...

I know, replying to myself.....

But if there was ever a Genre of game suited to being coded in Java, this is it! Then they could sell this stuff to MAC and Linux users as well....

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 9:58:52 PM

Damien Thorn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

If 2by3/matrix plans on doing a Med game, would it be based on the UV engine (30 mi per hex) or Witp (60 mi per hex)? Is there any future in the UV game engine? I think this may factor in new UV improvements.

Why spend much of any time at all making significant modifications to a game that has run its sales course? Major mods won't generate additional new sales so why bother? It's not like we are purchasing a long term maintenance contract with these games or anything.

God, zombie, you sound like a marketing weasel with the above statment. Very disappointing.
You guys want a reason to make another patch for UV? How about they PROMISED us one after the WitP release. We were told there would be one more patch that would retrofit as many of the WitP improvements as possible back to UV.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 10:51:47 PM

freeboy

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This goes to the qa theme from Matrix... they are the best.. Note some others do not do upgrades.. some do.. one that comes to mind is Combat missions..( Battlefront Games) while people port over their fav scens to the newest version. the lack of backward conversion left me less than thrilled with the company( not the product which is awesome). Panzer Campaigns does do "retrofits' keeping myself and others happy

So I would askt who could want for more .. a game associated with gg and matrix qa(quality assurance). You most definately will see upgrades to this game after gold.. my prediction

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 10:54:18 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

How about they PROMISED us one after the WitP release. We were told there would be one more patch that would retrofit as many of the WitP improvements as possible back to UV.

Just curious Damien, who made that statement? I don't remember ever seeing it. Not saying it didn't happen, it's just rather unusual for companies to state such things.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:05:31 PM

Toro

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I also wonder if such a statement was made before WitP morphed into a different animal. Originally, it was UV based. It may be OBE now.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:09:26 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

If 2by3/matrix plans on doing a Med game, would it be based on the UV engine (30 mi per hex) or Witp (60 mi per hex)? Is there any future in the UV game engine? I think this may factor in new UV improvements.

Why spend much of any time at all making significant modifications to a game that has run its sales course? Major mods won't generate additional new sales so why bother? It's not like we are purchasing a long term maintenance contract with these games or anything.

God, zombie, you sound like a marketing weasel with the above statment. Very disappointing.
You guys want a reason to make another patch for UV? How about they PROMISED us one after the WitP release. We were told there would be one more patch that would retrofit as many of the WitP improvements as possible back to UV.

Well, there is one and ONLY one viable reason to EVER go into business. And that includes the computer gaming business.

To make money, period. If the work does not have much hope of generating additional profit, short or long term for the company then the work is a waste of time. 2X3 is NOT a hobby for its principals, it is a business. If they indeed "promised" a post WitP patch, then they have their reputation at stake, which can be directly tied to long term profitablity. But I don't recall such a promise, and regardless, from what I understand, most of what is now in WitP is not possible to backport into UV without a near total rewrite of the internals.

Don't hold your breath.....

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:21:42 PM

Damien Thorn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Well, there is one and ONLY one viable reason to EVER go into business. And that includes the computer gaming business.

To make money, period. If the work does not have much hope of generating additional profit, short or long term for the company then the work is a waste of time.

From that thinking it is only a small step to say that a company should only be in business to MAXIMIZE their money-making. Thank God 2x3 doesn't think that way or else WitP would never have been made. Purely from a bottom line perspective they should have made another real-time piece of crap (or first person shooter. Both are popular with the drool-crowd). This brings up your next point...

quote:

2X3 is NOT a hobby for its principals, it is a business.

It is a business but it is a business of guys who make games because they LIKE it, not because they plan on becoming billionares doing it. In many ways it is a hobby for these people. I remember reading an interview from the one who used to work for SSI (forgot which one) and he said that after a while it stopped being fun when he stopped dealing with the making of games and started dealing with other aspects (like marketing, for example). I think their attitude is "its a hobby and we are lucky enough to be able to make money at our hobby". That's the reason they have provided such great support in the past and that is why I am sure they will continue to do so in the future.

quote:

If they indeed "promised" a post WitP patch, then they ve their reputation at stake, which can be directly tied to long term profitablity.

Well, no one used the word "promise". I belive they said they 'intend to' or 'plan to'. So I guess they have an "out" if they need one. I believe they will honor they (at least implied) promise and make at least one more patch.

quote:

Don't hold your breath.....

I'm holding it.

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:31:40 PM

Point Luck

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quote:

We were told there would be one more patch that would retrofit as many of the WitP improvements as possible back to UV.

I heard(read) that there wan not going to be any new patches until WiTP was completed.

Besides that, I would rather see scenarios provided for WiTP modeled after some UV scenarios. I pretty much made up my mind that after still playing UV for 2 years that UV would wind up being another throw away game.

The only reason I bought UV was because when that game was in beta they where already talking about WiTP based on the same engine. UV was just the naval academy now the the real war begins.

I�ve purposely been playing PBEM games with edited UV scenarios that pretty much had every ship plane and LCU�s plus more, all starting the game at the same time, just to practice handling a lot of sh_t

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Post #: 26

RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:44:32 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

2X3 is NOT a hobby for its principals, it is a business.

quote:

It is a business but it is a business of guys who make games because they LIKE it, not because they plan on becoming billionares doing it. In many ways it is a hobby for these people. I remember reading an interview from the one who used to work for SSI (forgot which one) and he said that after a while it stopped being fun when he stopped dealing with the making of games and started dealing with other aspects (like marketing, for example). I think their attitude is "its a hobby and we are lucky enough to be able to make money at our hobby". That's the reason they have provided such great support in the past and that is why I am sure they will continue to do so in the future.

Yea, and it is business logic like this that cause most gaming companies to wither and die withing a few years of their formation. Again, you go into business to MAKE MONEY, end of story. There is NO OTHER VIABLE reason for ever doing so, so stick to game programing as hobby, then, as that is the environment for doing things you "like" without regard to feeding yourself. 2x3 has a little niche, developing turn based wargames, and their business plan is to MAKE MONEY doing that, not providing you a charitable service! Now that business may very well fail, and taking the tact you suggest just about guarantees that. If doing a PROFITLESS venture like bringing UV up to WitP's engine level, causing the company to LOSE MONEY, is the choice, vs blowing it off so they can move on to other MONEY MAKING ventures, then I say BLOW IT OFF! Because this is about the ONLY company that does this type of game to this level left in the world today. And I'd like to see them stand the test of time.

I'm holding it.

Sucks to be you, I guess. How blue can you make yourself?

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 6/15/2004 9:46:53 PM >

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RE: UV retrofit - 6/15/2004 11:45:49 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

How about they PROMISED us one after the WitP release. We were told there would be one more patch that would retrofit as many of the WitP improvements as possible back to UV.

Just curious Damien, who made that statement? I don't remember ever seeing it. Not saying it didn't happen, it's just rather unusual for companies to state such things.

It was mentioned a couple times that there would be a retro patch.....but how 'much' of WitP can be feasilby patched to the earlier engine is subject to practicality i would imagine

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Post #: 28

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 12:11:40 AM

ADavidB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

Bomb Alley - I'll play the UV scenario of WitP if I want a later version.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 29

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 12:15:50 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

Bomb Alley - I'll play the UV scenario of WitP if I want a later version.

Dave Baranyi

Good point. All the more reason why almost ANY work on UV is a useless waste of time and money for 2X3. The major UV scenarios will all likely be WitP mini-scenarios anyway.... UV indeed is a throw-away game once this one is out.

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 30