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They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 6:50:56 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I just came from the HOI2 forums and found a thread where they are bashing or at least a few, hehe, are bashing Gary Grigsby's games.

Someone brought up a post about what Trotter said in PCgamer that "IF" HOI2 does all they say it's going to do, then it MIGHT give Gary Grigsby's "World at War" some competition in the grand strategy department.

Here's the link if yah wanna go tell em whatcha think. ;)

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152264

So whatchall think, who designs better games Grigsby(Matrix) or Johan(Paradox)? ;)

Darn I wish LES were here, he always has fun things to say in a Paradox thread. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 6/20/2004 11:54:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:12:18 AM   
GameTester


Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Well to me the funny thing is that most people over there agree Gary is better... and it's the Paradox website! Case closed.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 2
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:38:51 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline 		Funny, two years ago a gamer couldn't rub two big strategy wargames together. Now we have them coming outta the woodwork (thank goodness).

Nothing like some healthy competition - heheh

Even though we know which will be the better games

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 6/21/2004 6:08:50 AM >

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:56:55 AM   
.50Kerry


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: a long dark river winding through the jungles....
Status: offline 		Well to a degree it is akin to comparing apple pie to cherry?

Are they both pie?

Yeah but they are not really comprable other than the crust.

I know I can expect a LOT more and better detail from Grigsby, but I also know I can expect some nice bells and whistles from Johan....

like most things competition is "good" for the client....

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 8:08:19 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

Well to a degree it is akin to comparing apple pie to cherry?

Are they both pie?

Yeah but they are not really comprable other than the crust.

I know I can expect a LOT more and better detail from Grigsby, but I also know I can expect some nice bells and whistles from Johan....

like most things competition is "good" for the client....


I agree that Paradox has done some unique games. I like EU2.

However, Paradox needs to find a suitable engine to do a grand WWII wargame.

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 8:16:18 AM   
.50Kerry


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: a long dark river winding through the jungles....
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

Well to a degree it is akin to comparing apple pie to cherry?

Are they both pie?

Yeah but they are not really comprable other than the crust.

I know I can expect a LOT more and better detail from Grigsby, but I also know I can expect some nice bells and whistles from Johan....

like most things competition is "good" for the client....


I agree that Paradox has done some unique games. I like EU2.

However, Paradox needs to find a suitable engine to do a grand WWII wargame.




Agreed.

I think Vicky really suffers from the same engine issues in spades and that game is heads and shoulders above HoI....


they could also use a good manual writer.

regards,
sven

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 10:54:10 AM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		Personally, I hated EU. Its another game gathering dust on the reject shelf.

Nice, idea ruined by unecessary use of real time programming and 3D animation that got in the way of gameplay.

I have no idea what HOI2 is so can't comment on the comparison but EU didn't even last to the end of a single campaign on my PC.

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 1:43:13 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Heretics!

Oh, a heretic would suggest that they were once Grigsby followers. Yeah right! Don't diss the Grig!

I read that thread, and while the suggestion is made that the majority of the members don't like Gary's games,
the thread is more of adulation than contempt.

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Post #: 8
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 2:18:48 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Hearts of Iron 2
World in Flames
GG World at War
War in the pacific
Strategic Command 2
Guns of August
Empires in Arms

****

As for grand strategy, I am not complaining!

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Post #: 9
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 2:30:37 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Played HOI for about 15 hours.

Thought it had great potential if it was 1. Turn Based and 2. Bug free (well at least a little bit).

Gary Grigsby makes wargames for old time/hardcore wargamers. Paradox makes games for RTS crowd who want to play a more serious wargame.

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Post #: 10
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 3:18:41 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		I am going to buy WITP as soon as it is downloadable AND I will buy HOI 2 ... and I believe we should be happy to have at least 2 companies designing complex WW II "grand-strategy" games instead of "Command & Conquer"-like RTS, FPS or "tactical"-only wargames.

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 4:09:49 PM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline 		Both games look like Risk++ though I would wager HOI will be a deeper game with more gameplay options and WaW will probably be more stable and a more accurate WW2 game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
Personally, I hated EU. Its another game gathering dust on the reject shelf.
Nice, idea ruined by unecessary use of real time programming and 3D animation that got in the way of gameplay.



How did the limited icon animation "get in the way" of gameplay? Do you think they could have squeezed out a new generation AI in the afternoon it took to animate the icons?

The game lasts 400 years and thankfully the continuous time design prevents pressing the next-turn button every week, this is one game the truly benefits from being RTS.

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Post #: 12
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 4:41:35 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		I'll maybe take Paradox serious when I don't have to buy the same game twice with different names with fixes then wait a year to collect all the required patches to actually be able to play once. Paradox is firmly on the "do not buy" list until such time as someone tells me they actually released a game that is functional out of the box. Everything has bugs, we accept that, but you have to draw the line at functional. I'm not paying for HOI2, I already paid for EU2 (the bug patch for EU).

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 4:54:11 PM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'll maybe take Paradox serious when I don't have to buy the same game twice with different names with fixes then wait a year to collect all the required patches to actually be able to play once. Paradox is firmly on the "do not buy" list until such time as someone tells me they actually released a game that is functional out of the box. Everything has bugs, we accept that, but you have to draw the line at functional. I'm not paying for HOI2, I already paid for EU2 (the bug patch for EU).


I agree with you about Paradox's horrendous release quality. However, it's hardly fair to call EU2 a bug fix. EU1 already had several patches which fixed almost all the bugs in the game, and EU2 added new features. Perhaps not enough to be a stand-alone game, but at least an add-on. Calling it a paid bug-fix is inappropriate.

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Post #: 14
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 4:59:57 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.

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Post #: 15
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:07:36 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Calling it a paid bug-fix is inappropriate.


If it had been a $20 addon, I wouldn't. If it had worked, I wouldn't.

Such was not the case. Twice burnt, twice as angry.

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Post #: 16
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:07:56 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.


Paradox just dumped Strategy First for the "Crusader Kings" release in North America so I presume their relationship is over

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Post #: 17
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:08:43 PM   
.50Kerry


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: a long dark river winding through the jungles....
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.


Paradox just dumped Strategy First for the "Crusader Kings" release in North America so I presume their relationship is over




THANK the maker.


Maybe Matrix could be their pal here...?

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Post #: 18
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:09:13 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.


Paradox just dumped Strategy First for the "Crusader Kings" release in North America so I presume their relationship is over


Why blame the publisher for shoddy development? They have nothing to do with the code.

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Post #: 19
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:16:26 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.


Paradox just dumped Strategy First for the "Crusader Kings" release in North America so I presume their relationship is over


Why blame the publisher for shoddy development? They have nothing to do with the code.


Well, the HOI 2 release will be a good test

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Post #: 20
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:18:45 PM   
.50Kerry


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: a long dark river winding through the jungles....
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Paradox should seek another publisher. Strategy first is well known for horrendous relieses.


Paradox just dumped Strategy First for the "Crusader Kings" release in North America so I presume their relationship is over


Why blame the publisher for shoddy development? They have nothing to do with the code.




Not true....

the Publishers exert pressure on regional release dates.

StratFirst pushed Vicky out of the gate before it was ready(and the engine as I said has limits IMHO) and then gave it NO hooplah....

a better publisher/dev relationship will HELP the coding by having less pressure exerted.

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Post #: 21
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:37:25 PM   
PlacidDragon

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Dont know if they are bashing him (they as in plural). One of the people said to boycott Grisby (he couldnt even spell the name right, the poor guy, hehe), but i havent seen a single bad comment after that. Grigsby probably has a *lot* of fans in the range of gamers that are over 20 years old (that have seen his many excellent games throughout the years) :)

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Post #: 22
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 5:41:33 PM   
PlacidDragon

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		And i just saw that you were the "AMEN brother" (at least its the same name, so i imagine its you) lol, good one that

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Post #: 23
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 6:01:31 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Added my 2 cents at Paradox.

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Post #: 24
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:07:25 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

Both games look like Risk++ though I would wager HOI will be a deeper game with more gameplay options and WaW will probably be more stable and a more accurate WW2 game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
Personally, I hated EU. Its another game gathering dust on the reject shelf.
Nice, idea ruined by unecessary use of real time programming and 3D animation that got in the way of gameplay.



How did the limited icon animation "get in the way" of gameplay? Do you think they could have squeezed out a new generation AI in the afternoon it took to animate the icons?

The game lasts 400 years and thankfully the continuous time design prevents pressing the next-turn button every week, this is one game the truly benefits from being RTS.


I'm afraid it just irritated the hell out of me watching those lame little figures trudging over the landscape for ages when all I needed to do was pick tyhem up and move them to the next province and the stupid animate comabt sequences acheived nothing but delay the point when the programme told me who had won the battle.

I'm afraid I have no time for such teenage gimmicks, escpecially when the net result of all that 3D rubbish is that I can't play the game as a PBEM with my friends.

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Post #: 25
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:34:17 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Heh, they dumped Strategy First and picked up with ATARI, lol ATARI, oh boy, let me go find my JOYSTICKS from my ATARI days! lol

But, about Paradox and their "buy it now, we'll fix it later" policy, I certainly agree with waiting to buy any of their games now. I can understand "1" or maybe "2" patches, but, "7" or "8" a year and a half from the release date??? no way man (I'm nobodies beta tester when I have to pay for it). It took them a year and a half to make HOI 1 playable to me in a realistic sense. Allied invasions, in fact any AI's amphibious invasions and naval combat was to laugh at. And I don't buy these games for their "multiplayer" features, so the gameplay and the AI had better be pretty up to snuff if any of them want my $$. HOI 1 was the first and last Paradox game I will ever buy retail. I got EU II for $7.95 after patch 1.07 came out. If that's how they intend to do business, then that's how I intend to buy their products, when they are actually finished and not some "beta" program out of the box.

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Post #: 26
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 7:50:05 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I got EU II for $7.95 after patch 1.07 came out.


Bet you still feel gouged on the price.

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Post #: 27
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 8:12:39 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Heh, they dumped Strategy First and picked up with ATARI, lol ATARI, oh boy, let me go find my JOYSTICKS from my ATARI days! lol


Its not atari really but interplay which bought the atari logo after their own trademark (interplay) was tarnished by multiple bad releases. Not that it helped much in their case. The bad releases still continue. (temple of elemental evil etc)

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Post #: 28
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 8:13:01 PM   
Phillip V

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 6/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Heh, they dumped Strategy First and picked up with ATARI, lol ATARI, oh boy, let me go find my JOYSTICKS from my ATARI days! lol

But, about Paradox and their "buy it now, we'll fix it later" policy, I certainly agree with waiting to buy any of their games now. I can understand "1" or maybe "2" patches, but, "7" or "8" a year and a half from the release date??? no way man (I'm nobodies beta tester when I have to pay for it). It took them a year and a half to make HOI 1 playable to me in a realistic sense. Allied invasions, in fact any AI's amphibious invasions and naval combat was to laugh at. And I don't buy these games for their "multiplayer" features, so the gameplay and the AI had better be pretty up to snuff if any of them want my $$. HOI 1 was the first and last Paradox game I will ever buy retail. I got EU II for $7.95 after patch 1.07 came out. If that's how they intend to do business, then that's how I intend to buy their products, when they are actually finished and not some "beta" program out of the box.

As you just mentioned, Paradox has dropped Strategy First - the reason that they had to release games that were not ready. Now, they are their OWN publisher. Atari is helping with distribution.

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Post #: 29
RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/21/2004 8:19:27 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Now, they are their OWN publisher. Atari is helping with distribution.


So the next time we have this discussion, there will be no more excuses as to the state of the game. Good. Tired of excuses.

(in reply to Phillip V)
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