RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby!

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 5:59:28 PM

max_h

Posts: 187
Joined: 10/18/2002
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calling all hoi players morons or other things like les did isn�t name calling, or what? btw, he wasn�t impressed with SC intially and bashed it everywhere.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 61

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:03:09 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz

quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Well the units don't teleport, so there has to be some indication that they have movement orders. Same with battle, it takes time segments out of the continous time.

But continuous time is an unecessary gimmick in a game supposed to represent hundreds of years of gameplay.

IMO: All it does is ruin the gameplay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Those "gimmicks" have nothing to do with you not being able to play PBEM. That would be because continous time is not compatible with PBEM.

Most people would consider Continous time to be a style of play, not a gimmick, but then again, the world went downhill when ink replaced slate tablets.

And presumably the designers decided that continuous time was a more saleable gimmick than allowing the game to be played against other human players.

Strange choice for a wargame company in my opinion and not a company I'll be spending any more of my money with.

You can play the game against other human beings....

Not sure where you come up with this pap, but it is absolutely wrong. I've played many games against 4+ humans.

_____________________________

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 62

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:07:04 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I have nothing against EU or EU2, just sick and tired of the patch syndrome. If the game is not ready, don't let me buy it and find out just how unready it is. It does not get you a loyal customer. It gets you an angry frustrated customer who is unlikely to buy your products again. If they don't understand that, then it really is time to get into another line of work.

When I bought EU2, I made the mistake of assuming that it would finally be a working EU only to get burned *again*. You think I was angry about EU, EU2 just made it worse. Not only do I feel ripped off twice, but now I am just seeing red anytime anyone mentions Paradox stuff. If this is the kind of customer they want on their hands, they are certainly going about it the right way. Don't blame me for my attitude. I am a nice guy until you go out of your way to screw me.

Paradox needs to get a bunch of 10's from many review sites before they ever end up on my list of games to buy again. Their new publisher is firmly on my "never buy from" list so that really is not going to help matters.

How many patches did UV have? Is it doing being patched?

Somehow, I don't think you're going to say UV wasn't ready and apply the same screws to 2by3/matrix like you're doing towards paradox. This isn't to defend games that need patching including UV, but obviously your rose colored glasses are a bit biased.

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Post #: 63

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:11:00 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

you would see that the patches mostly add new FEATURES and ENHANCEMENTS to the game, NOT bugfixes.

See that word "MOSTLY" you used, that tells me a lot about CK out of the box. If you had said ALL that were in the patches were features and enhancements, that would have made a difference, but, you didn't, you said mostly.

Also, Features and Enhancements should have been in the box as well, it's still the same process if one has to wait six months, a year or a year and a half for these "features" and "advancements" that improve the game or make it a "finished" game.

I've stated this before, what about those 1000's of people that don't even have internet connections, those 1000's of people that never get or see a patch or an update with these socalled "features" and "advancements", what about them? Tough? That's the problem with "buy it now, we'll fix it later" a lot of people get ripped off, because they never see the fixes.

The whole world of wargamers is not on the internet, not even a large portion of the world is on the internet, thus games should be absolutely finished upon release and if there are patches and enhancments the manual should contain a phone number or address to recieve these patches and enhancements for FREE.

It's almost like saying software has this independence from the rest of the marketing world that they can have buggy and faulty unfinished products for sale on the shelves, quite rediculous, it's greed and total greed that releases these unfinished products, they could put more resources and time and money into testing these games to perfection, but, nooooooooooo, they'd rather just rip the public off, because they can get away with it (for now), eventually someone somewhere is going to take a stance and "regulations" are going to be imposed on software developers/publishers to either put out finished unbuggy products or they "must" accept paying out "full refunds" on these products.

In my case, my retaliation for Paradox's policiy of "buy it now, we'll fix it later" or "become a live beta tester for full price of the game" is to either not purchase any of their products, or wait until they are so low in price, it doesn't really matter.

I'm tired of their crapola and I'm not gonna take it anymore. ;)

(in reply to Phillip V)

Post #: 64

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:34:40 PM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

You can play the game against other human beings....

Not sure where you come up with this pap, but it is absolutely wrong. I've played many games against 4+ humans.

So, how long does it take to play a complete campaign of EU against four other human players?

I thought the game was supposed to cover hundreds of years of history?

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 65

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:43:02 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
So, how long does it take to play a complete campaign of EU against four other human players?

I thought the game was supposed to cover hundreds of years of history?

What's your point? Is there some time expiration which renders a game invalid as a wargame according to your criteria?

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 66

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 6:53:51 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

You can play the game against other human beings....

Not sure where you come up with this pap, but it is absolutely wrong. I've played many games against 4+ humans.

So, how long does it take to play a complete campaign of EU against four other human players?

I thought the game was supposed to cover hundreds of years of history?

I've completed one over a period of about 3 weeks playing nightly for the longest campaign, 1419 - 1821. Could have taken longer but each of us were able to play for a good chunk of time each night.

Take this vs a panzer campaign and it's much much shorter. My longest time in completing a 120 turn pzc took me and 1 oppenent 4 months to finish.

_____________________________

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 67

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:00:25 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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quote:

Somehow, I don't think you're going to say UV wasn't ready and apply the same screws to 2by3/matrix like you're doing towards paradox. This isn't to defend games that need patching including UV, but obviously your rose colored glasses are a bit biased.

UV works. UV patches added features. I don't have to buy UV2 to get my fixes, it was 3 free patches. None of them were patches to deal with broken interface bugs that caused the game to crash.

You will note if you dig back into the UV bug forum that I have lots of complaints there. I don't have rose colored glasses. I also happen to be the guy to cause the BoB patch way back because I beat the game in 2 days. The difference is that GG games get patched and work out of the box. Paradox crap does *not* work out of the box.

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 68

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:06:16 PM

dinsdale

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Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
UV works. UV patches added features. I don't have to buy UV2 to get my fixes, it was 3 free patches. None of them were patches to deal with broken interface bugs that caused the game to crash.

You're joking aren't you? You honestly think not one bug fix was in those patches.

In the gamespot list of downloads for this game

-The v1.10 patch fixes a bunch of bugs in the game.

-The v1.11 patch fixes even more bugs found in the game. It requires the v1.10 patch to be installed

-The v1.20 patch fixes more bugs and further adjusts gameplay balance. Note: You will need v1.10 or v1.11 installed for this patch

and there are three more besides.

Just shows that fanatics come in all shapes and sizes both Paradox and Grigsby flavoured.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 69

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:08:08 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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quote:

You're joking aren't you? You honestly think not one bug fix was in those patches.

The simply fact that you can download UV 2.0 pretty much responds to your post completely.

Wheres the EU2 download? Opps, forgot, You have to PAY for Paradox's patches.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 70

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:11:02 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Somehow, I don't think you're going to say UV wasn't ready and apply the same screws to 2by3/matrix like you're doing towards paradox. This isn't to defend games that need patching including UV, but obviously your rose colored glasses are a bit biased.

UV works. UV patches added features. I don't have to buy UV2 to get my fixes, it was 3 free patches. None of them were patches to deal with broken interface bugs that caused the game to crash.

You will note if you dig back into the UV bug forum that I have lots of complaints there. I don't have rose colored glasses. I also happen to be the guy to cause the BoB patch way back because I beat the game in 2 days. The difference is that GG games get patched and work out of the box. Paradox crap does *not* work out of the box.

EU works. EU patches added features. 3 patches for UV? It was more than 3.

Wow!! You caused the BoB patch because you beat the game in 2 days?? Can I have your autograph?

EU and EU2 both worked out of the box for me. Can't speak to other's experiences with them. To argue that they don't work out of the box is as usual fluff.

_____________________________

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Post #: 71

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:11:13 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The simply fact that you can download UV 2.0 pretty much responds to your post completely.

Perhaps you've already forgotten what you wrote:

quote:

UV works. UV patches added features

Which is false, as is obvious from the number of patches and their content.

As for EU2, you've ignored the fact that

1) EU1 was finished with >5 patches already
2) It was a new game with added content and extra gameplay

quote:

Wheres the EU2 download? Opps, forgot, You have to PAY for Paradox's patches

So I can download War In The Pacific for free? Please let me know the link.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 72

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:14:39 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You're joking aren't you? You honestly think not one bug fix was in those patches.

The simply fact that you can download UV 2.0 pretty much responds to your post completely.

Wheres the EU2 download? Opps, forgot, You have to PAY for Paradox's patches.

Pay to get their patches? They are all free to download.

Oh wait, you're being facetious... how clever!

_____________________________

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Post #: 73

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 7:28:41 PM

McNaughton

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Joined: 4/13/2004
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One thing that most people are missing here is the differences between the games. UV is a game designed to work the way the developers want it to, it is not very moddable, which is not a bad thing. However, Paradox games are probably the most moddable, and most supported, of games I have ever seen. Their engines are solid, albiet very abstract, and are never perfect out of the box, but you KNOW it won't be that way forever. HoI has been imensely enhanced by the CORE mod, which has improved AI, events, historic gameplay, etc. None of this would have happend had Paradox not have provided a moddable game, and provided support to add features to improve the game (such as adding event triggers). They didn't have to do this, but they did anyway.

What really is the difference from delaying a game for a few weeks to weed out bugs or to release it, get a much wider testing audience who can not only point out bugs, but also request features? Technically, you won't get

Posting patches within days of one another is seen as a failure? How the heck did you ever get to this conclusion? OMG, I cannot believe that you see dedication to getting it right as a failure.

The differences between EU and EU2 are phenominal, and would be virtually impossible to do within a patch. It would be like expecting Matrix Games to have WitP as a patch for UV! Basically, people here are against Paradox regardless for what they do. No matter what, you only have negative things to say. I don't limit myself and will enjoy not only Paradox Games, but also Matrix Games, and highly respect both. Hey, wait a minute, I bought "Pacific War", which is really just an early version as "War in the Pacific", so I guess Gary is ripping me off just like you say Paradox is, eh?

Paradox provides message board space for modders. This is a major drain on bandwidth, with hundreds of people browsing and/or posting a day. They provide moderators, and developers frequent these threads and have shown that they LISTEN to requests, not only to fix bugs, but to add enhancements. They don't censor attacks on their products, and they have PROVEN to support their games well beyond what is reasonably expected. To attack these people is stupid, as they are doing just as a phenominal job as those in Matrix games.

These days, NOBODY releases a perfect game on version 1.0. What matters more than releasing a buggy game is future support, not only to fix bugs, but to also enhance.

Each IS different, each has its spectacular points, each will have its fanboys insult one another, which is just showing individual patheticness than actually representing the games and developers. I am very disappointed with the childish behaviour.

< Message edited by McNaughton -- 6/22/2004 5:33:11 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 74

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 8:25:56 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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People here are not against Paradox, they are against Paradox's proven track record of releasing software long before it is even remotely ready for release.

If the problem happens to a publisher who forced them to release the game early, so be it, but that does not excuse them. They too got a slice of the $$$. Obviously if that was the case, they should have gotten a different publisher the second time around. I think they just fell into the habit of accepting that people will buy their products and wait for patches. I will not.

The assumption that bug ridden games are the norm these days is killing the industry. You wonder why consoles are taking over? They get it right the first time because they have to. It is unacceptable for the PC world to think they are immune from producing quality work yet time and time again, that is the norm.

(in reply to McNaughton)

Post #: 75

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 8:29:53 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

They don't censor attacks on their products

LOL, I've seen the moderators ban people for attacking their products, I've seen them close threads, don't try to come here with that crap they don't censor attacks on their products, it's like top priority!

They even "moved" that thread that this thread is about to the OT forums to HIDE if from the point it was making, Grigsby's games are better than Johans games expecially HOI and soon HOI2.

It's Paradox's track record that makes them a bad apple, it's the constant same thing every single game CTD's, manuals that are about as helpful as a hat rack without any racks, pitiful if any tutorials. It's not just patching, it's the whole picture as a whole. Their track record speaks through and through "don't expect a finished workable playable game out of the box", you certainly won't find one from Paradox.

Johan himself even came out and admitted that VICTORIA was a "failure" what more proof does anyone need than that??? He said they would no longer make games of that nature and go back to the likes of EUII's and HOI's. Told me a lot right there, the guy and the public as a majority found VICTORIA to be craptolicholia.

I'll also give you some more examples of why Paradox has craptastic games. You can find an HPS/Tiller game on ebay and you'll be lucky if you can get that game for less than $30. You can get EU, EUII or HOI, even Victoria now for less than $15, proves pretty much to me the value of HPS/Tiller games vs Paradox's abstract silly crapola. Also try to score Korsun Pocket, UV or HTTR on ebay at all for less than $30, good luck. These Matrix games hold their value, Paraflop games do not. I even saw Victoria one time for sale for $15 and nobody even bid on it! Craptastic! And when I see someone list it for $29.95, I get such a belly laugh I nearly fall out of my chair.

Victoria 62%, HOI 73.7%, Crusader Kings 79%, Europa 81.1%, Europa II 86.3%, EU Crown of the North 67%, they reached their peak with that engine at EUII, everything else has been downhill ever since. I found it a laugh that Crown of the North scored better than Victoria.

"We're very proud to annouce that "Korsun Pocket" won Gamespy's "2003
Game of the Year Award - PC Wargame"

"Korsun Pocket is arguably the best traditional hex-based wargame of all time."

"Korsun Pocket is the runaway winner of wargame of the year -- and ranks among
the best in the genre of all-time. "

I rest my case MATRIX/HPS/TILLER make the best wargames. ;)

(in reply to McNaughton)

Post #: 76

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 8:36:23 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
People here are not against Paradox, they are against Paradox's proven track record of releasing software long before it is even remotely ready for release.

As you have repeatedly commented on "buying patches" from Paradox and Uncommon Valour "working" then it leads one to assume that you are taking a biased position with regard to the different developers. Classic case of "the developer I like is better."

quote:

I think they just fell into the habit of accepting that people will buy their products and wait for patches. I will not.

They actively champion the fact that the games will be released unfinished. IMHO it's a loathsome attitude, but there are plenty of people who appear to enjoy being part of the bug-fix.

quote:

The assumption that bug ridden games are the norm these days is killing the industry. You wonder why consoles are taking over? They get it right the first time because they have to. It is unacceptable for the PC world to think they are immune from producing quality work yet time and time again, that is the norm.

Thief 3 has a critical bug in it which will be patched on the PC version, and probably not on the console, so consoles suffer too, just less so than PC gamers.

Release now patch whenever is not monopolized by Paradox, IMHO their games are rougher out of the box than most, but patches are available for almost all games these days. There's a simple way to deal with the problem; don't buy the game until it's been patched multiple times, but gamers don't appear capable of self restraint.

Some of that is through beta programs and AARs, either through innocent exhuberance or deceit, these postings are little more than free marketing for the company involved.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 77

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 8:42:45 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
LOL, I've seen the moderators ban people for attacking their products, I've seen them close threads, don't try to come here with that crap they don't censor attacks on their products, it's like top priority!

I criticize their products, haven't been banned yet, and neither have you.

quote:

They even "moved" that thread that this thread is about to the OT forums to HIDE if from the point it was making, Grigsby's games are better than Johans games expecially HOI and soon HOI2.

They moved it because it was off topic, same as the HOI thread in the WAW forum was closed. When you own and operate a forum then you can do what you like, but when you go to someone else's, don't be too surprised if they actually follow their own rules.

quote:

I'll also give you some more examples of why Paradox has craptastic games. You can find an HPS/Tiller game on ebay and you'll be lucky if you can get that game for less than $30. You can get EU, EUII or HOI, even Victoria now for less than $15, proves pretty much to me the value of HPS/Tiller games vs Paradox's abstract silly crapola. Also try to score Korsun Pocket, UV or HTTR on ebay at all for less than $30, good luck. These Matrix games hold their value, Paraflop games do not. I even saw Victoria one time for sale for $15 and nobody even bid on it! Craptastic! And when I see someone list it for $29.95, I get such a belly laugh I nearly fall out of my chair.

No, it simply proves that the price on ebay is at the moment.

For someone with no interest in Paradox, you certainly spend an unhealthy amount of time reading and posting about them.

quote:

I rest my case MATRIX/HPS/TILLER make the best wargames. ;)

So reviews and awards (as well as price on ebay) are now the mark of great games. In that case, Painkiller is the greatest game of all time.

Sadly you won't rest your case and you'll be ranting and raving about Paradox, despite not buying their games, forever. How much longer are you going to hold onto that HOI grudge?

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 78

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 8:45:25 PM

Pippin

Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
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quote:

. You think I was angry about EU, EU2 just made it worse. Not only do I feel ripped off twice, but now I am just seeing red anytime anyone mentions Paradox stuff.

Reminds me, of going through Axis&Axis, then having a shread of hope that Iron Blitz would fix some of the critial errors. What a crazy dream that was.... anyone mentions Hasbro now, I get a tad upset :P

_____________________________

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(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 79

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 10:09:43 PM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
What's your point? Is there some time expiration which renders a game invalid as a wargame according to your criteria?

No. I'm seeking to explore the practically of your assertion that you played an entire EU campaign online with four players.

Personally, I've found it difficult to complete a single battle lasting less than 60 minutes online with four players. But I would assume that a 400 hundred year campaign would take at least 10 if not 20 times that duration. I'm curious how you managed it.

Having said that I wouldn't class EU as a wargame anyway in my book its an RTS, and a rather poor one at that.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/22/2004 8:11:14 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 10:28:19 PM

McNaughton

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What is being said here is more opinion than fact. The facts are, both Matrix and Paradox are very successful, and they go about making products with different focus'. Is one better than the other? No, they are too different to compare when basing it objectively. However, too many people here assume that everyone in the world thinks like them, and make opinions as facts, when they are just opinions. I have spent more hours playing Paradox games than Gary Grigby games, but do I state that Paradox games are better? No, just that Paradox games are more interesting TO ME, in subjective terms, based upon their ability to play a historic game beyond a limited timeframe, as well as its highly moddable engine. In objective terms, both provide products that suit their genre, and are extremely popular, individually we each decide which we perfer, but don't DARE tell me that I am wrong for perferring what I do, just because you don't share the same feelings.

Also, outside reviews are misleading. You can find extremely positive reviews for the worst things out there (from music, movies to computer games). Someone may say that Brittney Spears is way better than Audioslave, I mean, look at the reviews, look at the products sold, and according to a lot of logic here, everyone should admit that Brittney Spears is the superior musician. However, it is all a matter of opinion. IMO, Brittney Spears makes poor music, but that is not a fact, but an opinion. I am not going to belittle others because they like something I don't.

I have never been able to finish a GGPW campaign, solo or PBEM, and can find it in the $9.00 bin, does that mean that this game is utter crap?

< Message edited by McNaughton -- 6/22/2004 8:32:15 PM >

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 81

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 10:29:41 PM

McNaughton

Posts: 113
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

dp

< Message edited by McNaughton -- 6/22/2004 8:30:00 PM >

(in reply to McNaughton)

Post #: 82

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/22/2004 11:16:45 PM

Koper

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
(...)Having said that I wouldn't class EU as a wargame anyway in my book its an RTS, and a rather poor one at that.

Blasphemy!

Sorry, but that exactly what I was saying about the difference of design approach... Not a single product of Paradox is turn based. Even if they make impressive and bug-free-right-from-the-box-game (now that would be the feat!), it will be still RTS for most of the hardcore GG fans...

Pity, really.

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 83

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 12:02:04 AM

Pippin

Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline

quote:

IMO, Brittney Spears makes poor music, but that is not a fact, but an opinion.

PHEW!! Glad I found someone who has the same opinion as me! :P

I started to think I was a major world-outcast.

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

(in reply to Koper)

Post #: 84

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 2:54:45 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
No. I'm seeking to explore the practically of your assertion that you played an entire EU campaign online with four players.

You need to double check, I didn't make that assertion. However, there are reports and AARs all over the PE fora, so perhaps you could peruse and satisfy your morbid curiosity.

quote:

Personally, I've found it difficult to complete a single battle lasting less than 60 minutes online with four players.

A battle? Perhaps you need to explain, battles are fought automatically when two hostile armies enter the same province, no further input needed from the player. That must have been some battle to last an hour, or are you confusing EU with another game.

quote:

Having said that I wouldn't class EU as a wargame anyway in my book its an RTS, and a rather poor one at that.

Of course you would

That entire hour you claimed to play the game must have been enough to form such a clear, concise and open-minded evaluation of the game.

(in reply to Didz)

Post #: 85

RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 3:45:32 AM

elmo3

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If there were only some way to harness the passion that we wargamers have for our games and redirect it. We would surely solve all the world's problems with energy to spare!

(in reply to dinsdale)

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 3:51:39 AM

dinsdale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

If there were only some way to harness the passion that we wargamers have for our games and redirect it. We would surely solve all the world's problems with energy to spare!

Not a chance.

1) No one would agree what energy really was.
2) The confines of The World would have to be defined as The World In 1974
3) We'd have to do it all without technology, or fancy graphics
4) It would take hours to decide on a turn, only to discover that the world moves in real time

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 5:18:33 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

only to discover that the world moves in real time

And what is "real time" anyway, is this some higher elitist time than "regular time" or "Past time"?? Is the speed of time really 60 seconds equals one minute? Or is that time based merely on the revolving of the earth? ;) RTS games in no way no fashion play out in "real time", it's a fallacy to even suggest such a thing, if they did, it would take days, weeks, months and years to play out a really "real time" battle situation. It would take 6 years of real human life time to play out a WWII RTS game. ;)

IMHO RTS should be renamed to FFS games Fast Forward Strategy game.

Grab your joysick an doe see doe
rush that grunt and destory your foe
hit that barracks, kill that fiend
plow those peaseants, crush that field
raise 10000 catapults and chariots with wheels
real time has changed, it's much faster now
you'll finish a game yesterday, whatdoyah mean how?
RTS is a wargame, no it's not
yes it is, you're full of snot.

lol

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 6:48:31 AM

dinsdale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And what is "real time" anyway, is this some higher elitist time than "regular time" or "Past time"?? Is the speed of time really 60 seconds equals one minute? Or is that time based merely on the revolving of the earth? ;) RTS games in no way no fashion play out in "real time", it's a fallacy to even suggest such a thing, if they did, it would take days, weeks, months and years to play out a really "real time" battle situation. It would take 6 years of real human life time to play out a WWII RTS game. ;)

IMHO RTS should be renamed to FFS games Fast Forward Strategy game.

There's an amazing concept in HTTR and EU.......the pause button.

Continuous time is neither better nor worse than any other paradigm, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but at least I'm open minded enough to try it and not reject it out of hand because it's new and "fancy"

I wonder what the reaction was when they went from plastic to cardboard counters, must have been a grognards revolt

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RE: They are bashing Gary Grigsby! - 6/23/2004 7:34:03 AM

ravinhood

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Nah, it was the CAT that revolted against board wargames. Sneaky lil bassurds. ;) And I still blew my plastic soldiers up in the sandbox just like always with firecrackers, board wargaming sort of took the fun out of that, cardboard pieces blown up with a firecracker just didn't have the same feeling to it.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 6/23/2004 12:35:10 AM >

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