Commissar-unit in SPWAW?

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Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/22/2004 3:20:35 PM

Riekko

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Joined: 6/21/2004
From: Finland
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What would you think of SPWAW-unit called Commissar (or political officer)?
This unit could be interesting when you have masses of conscripts and they start to flee. You could try to rally them normally with commissar but if they were still fleeign you could execute some of men as warning. This would "rally" men back to attack. So the point of this unit would be that men are more afraid of their commissar than enemy.
This might not be politically correct unit but many wartime stories indicate that Soviet commissars were sometimes shooting their own (fleeing) men to get them back in fight.

Or is this just nonsense?

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/22/2004 4:23:15 PM

Gallo Rojo

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I don't think that the SP code can allow to introduce any type of unit that fires upon your own units.

In addition, the 8.2 Team is finishign the new (and we all hope last) version of the game, so I don't think they are very receptive for new ideas right now

But... there's a way to re-reate this idea of yours without incorporating any new unit.
Here goes the tip:

as you probably know, when you fire upon a enemy unit it gets suppressed.
And suppression keeps increasing with under enemy fire up to a certain poit; but if you insist firing upon a unit that is routed, it may happens that that unit suppression becomes to go down and the unit becomes pinned ! (this is not a bug, is intentional in the game)

so there is the tip: if you have a unit that is routed and you have tryied to rally it without any success, you can fire upon it with one of your units using the attack an hex with direct fire button ("Z" Hot-Key).
This will work as if the comandant (acting a a commisar if you like) was firing rounds above the head of his comanded units to force them to go back to the fight. And as attacking an hex can eventually cause casualties on the unit on the attacked hex, you can assume that some of the soldiers have been "executed."

I have used that tip playing solitarie as the Soviets some times

If you plan to use it in a PBEM or ON LINE game I sugest that you ask you partener if he considers it a fair tactic

have fun

< Message edited by Gallo Rojo -- 6/22/2004 2:26:01 PM >

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/22/2004 6:54:59 PM

stevemk1a

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Well, you learn something new everyday! That tactic never occurred to me ... Would it only work for the Soviets? IIRC according to "National characteristics" they will sometimes revert to a suppression of zero after taking a loss when routed.

However, I don't recall ever noticing another nations troops do that, but I could be wrong!

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/22/2004 9:12:06 PM

Voriax

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Unless memory fails Combat leader will have such commissar unit.

Voriax

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Post #: 4

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 12:49:38 AM

Kevin E. Duguay

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From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
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Voriax,

You beat me to it!! I had no idea that Combat Leader would have such a unit but what a fantastic idea. I can just see the Russian infantry advancing, facing heavy fire, retreating, facing heavy fire, advancing, facing heavy fire, GONE!! God bless Stalin and the NKVD!!

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Post #: 5

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 1:04:36 AM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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You just have to wonder how blood-thirsty Gallo must have been to discover this phenomenon!!!!!!!!

Shooting at your own people!!!!!)Realistic in battle though...

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 2:27:29 AM

BruceAZ

Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Riekko

What would you think of SPWAW-unit called Commissar (or political officer)?
This unit could be interesting when you have masses of conscripts and they start to flee. You could try to rally them normally with commissar but if they were still fleeign you could execute some of men as warning. This would "rally" men back to attack. So the point of this unit would be that men are more afraid of their commissar than enemy.
This might not be politically correct unit but many wartime stories indicate that Soviet commissars were sometimes shooting their own (fleeing) men to get them back in fight.

Or is this just nonsense?

No, not nonsense. All of the above are good suggestions. If it is really important to you, create your own Commissar in the Russian OOB. Just select a HQ unit and modify the attributes. Presto, your own custom "Commisar" you can use in your own battles. Of course there are draw backs such as inability to share or shoot your own troops

but it does wonders for your own personal and unique units.

Give it a try in the SPWAW OOB Editor. Sorta fun.

Recon
Semper Fi

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 5:10:15 AM

Gallo Rojo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willy

Well, you learn something new everyday! That tactic never occurred to me ... Would it only work for the Soviets? IIRC according to "National characteristics" they will sometimes revert to a suppression of zero after taking a loss when routed.

However, I don't recall ever noticing another nations troops do that, but I could be wrong!

It works for all nations.

In the specific case of the Soviets, it may work better if they're deffending -- If I'm not wrong, this National Characteristic of reverting or ignore high levels of suppression under fire and fire-back only happens when they're fighting defencive battles.

Be careful when usign this trick: it works some times, but other tiemes you may end by killing your own people without reducing any suppression

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 5:21:39 AM

Gallo Rojo

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From: Argentina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
You just have to wonder how blood-thirsty Gallo must have been to discover this phenomenon!!!!!!!!

Like Dracula!

I discovered it by chance actually: I shooted against a enemy infantry sqd that was placed in the same hex of one my infantry sqd that was routed; and my routed squad become pinned and recovered some shoots! ... that allowed me to kill the enemy sqd with my previously routed sqd!

So, I thought: "D@m! It works!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Shooting at your own people!!!!!)Realistic in battle though...

yeah ... if they retreat, they're not real communist and therefore they should be shooted.

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 5:23:43 AM

Gallo Rojo

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From: Argentina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BruceAZ

No, not nonsense. All of the above are good suggestions. If it is really important to you, create your own Commissar in the Russian OOB. Just select a HQ unit and modify the attributes. Presto, your own custom "Commisar" you can use in your own battles. Of course there are draw backs such as inability to share or shoot your own troops but it does wonders for your own personal and unique units. Give it a try in the SPWAW OOB Editor. Sorta fun.

that's a good idea Bruce.

Riekko: if you don't know (or don't want) to try with the OOB Editor, you may simply re-name your HQ Platoon units as "Commisar" and then use the trick I described above.

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 1:57:08 PM

Riekko

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/21/2004
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gallo Rojo

But... there's a way to re-reate this idea of yours without incorporating any new unit.
Here goes the tip:

as you probably know, when you fire upon a enemy unit it gets suppressed.
And suppression keeps increasing with under enemy fire up to a certain poit; but if you insist firing upon a unit that is routed, it may happens that that unit suppression becomes to go down and the unit becomes pinned ! (this is not a bug, is intentional in the game)

so there is the tip: if you have a unit that is routed and you have tryied to rally it without any success, you can fire upon it with one of your units using the attack an hex with direct fire button ("Z" Hot-Key).
This will work as if the comandant (acting a a commisar if you like) was firing rounds above the head of his comanded units to force them to go back to the fight. And as attacking an hex can eventually cause casualties on the unit on the attacked hex, you can assume that some of the soldiers have been "executed."

I have used that tip playing solitarie as the Soviets some times

If you plan to use it in a PBEM or ON LINE game I sugest that you ask you partener if he considers it a fair tactic

have fun

That supression reverting is interesting. So when playing for example Germans you shouldn't shoot routed russian units (because that might bring them back in fight) but instead shoot only pinned and "ready" units?

Voriax: Do you remember how that commissar-unit worked in Combat leader?

I have to check that OOB editor thing (never used it

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Post #: 11

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 2:40:33 PM

Resisti

Posts: 1351
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From: Livorno, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Riekko
Voriax: Do you remember how that commissar-unit worked in Combat leader?

the game is still in development ;)

By using Paul Vebber's words:

"LIkewise, other wise pokey leader, with smaller command point allotments (which are somewhat random each turn) can be machines at inspiring morale state changes (the prototypical Soviet Commisar) while being an abslute dolt at lowering suppression (a leader with the actual "commisar" skill can actually CAUSE suppression and even casualties in the pursuit of "berserk" status.) or calling in fire."

If you want to know more, I suggest you to post a specific question on the Combat Leader Forum.

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Post #: 12

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 3:13:57 PM

Riekko

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Resisti

By using Paul Vebber's words:

"LIkewise, other wise pokey leader, with smaller command point allotments (which are somewhat random each turn) can be machines at inspiring morale state changes (the prototypical Soviet Commisar) while being an abslute dolt at lowering suppression (a leader with the actual "commisar" skill can actually CAUSE suppression and even casualties in the pursuit of "berserk" status.) or calling in fire."

If you want to know more, I suggest you to post a specific question on the Combat Leader Forum.

I guess i just have to wait and see it in Combat leader.
Thanks for info Resisti.

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Post #: 13

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 9:20:50 PM

Voriax

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Here's the workings of CL's Commissar unit. It is a leader special ability.

Commissar (inf)- affects the leaders� ability to lower morale state and initiate human wave (berserk) attacks. A Commissar may attempt to lower the morale state of all the units in its maneuver formation that are within 50m with a single inspiration check. If it fails by 3 or more or succeeds by 2 or more a random unit in the formation takes 1d4 casualties, and if failed, rolls again.

Voriax

ps. This is taken from scenario design guide document so this info may change.

< Message edited by Voriax -- 6/23/2004 9:22:11 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/23/2004 9:54:15 PM

Gallo Rojo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Riekko

That supression reverting is interesting. So when playing for example Germans you shouldn't shoot routed russian units (because that might bring them back in fight) but instead shoot only pinned and "ready" units?

The suppression reverting affects all nations, not only Soviets.
You have to be more carefully with the Soviets because its national characterists allow them to ignore high levels of supresion and fire back. But units of every nations can have a reversing supression.

It affects "routed", not "pinned" units. It goes this way: a "routed" unit is a unit whose moral is broken. The unit simply doesn't want to fight any more. It can't neither move nor fire. If you shoot against a "routed" unit it may either take more supression or have one of those "reversing supression" and become "pinned", and eventually fire-back (when a unit is pinned it can't move but can fire as you know). I guess that is because the men in the routed unit sudenly realizes that they're between a rock and a hard place and dedices to make you pay a price for their death.

So: if you see a pinned unit, you can fire agaist it as much as you want. It won't become "ready" because of that.
But if you see a "routed" unit, you have to be carefull. It may be better to leave it as it is (since it won't shoot you) and focus your fire against "pinned" and "ready" units.

But if you are sure that you have a good chance of finishing a "routed" unit (i.e.: you have a tank that can over-run it, or you have a squad in an adjacent hex that carries smgs, flametowers, etc.), then finish it! Kill them all! Take into account that a "routed" units is a very (very) supressed one, so a few good shoots may force them to "surrend" (if you have a unit in an adjacent hex) or to "disperce."

Of course, the desition about whether to leaveing along or try to finish a routed unit is a choise you have to make. You may destroy it or it may have a "reversing supression" and become pinned (and back into fight).

Something that can help you to reduce the risk involved in that desition is looking to the number of casualties that the "routed" unit has taken. If you see that the sqd has a half or less of its original men, then shoot it and try to finish it: it is more likely that it will either "surrend" or "disperce" than become "pinned"

to sum up:

- A "pinned" unit won't become "ready" if you shoot at it (but it may return fire simply 'cos pinned units can't move but can fire); and it may become "routed" (due to an increment in its supression). Hence, you should fire upon them.
- A "routed" unit (can't move and can't fire) may become "pinned" if you insist in shooting at it (due to a "reversing supression"). So be carefull. ... but: a "routed" unit may also "surrend" or "disperce" (since is very supressed); so if you think you have a good chance to finish it, do it!

and you can always shoot against your own "routed" units using the "attack an hex with direct fire" option in order to make them get pinned and come back to fight

cheers,
Gallo Rojo

PS: I wonder if in CL the US may have a "Patton" unit to beat "routed" individual soldiers

< Message edited by Gallo Rojo -- 6/23/2004 9:52:50 PM >

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/24/2004 1:06:12 AM

Jamminji

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This is probably a newbie question, but how do you find out how many men have died in a squad? Also if a unit is routed you do not see now many people are in the hex. How would you find that info, without shooting them that is.

jam

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RE: Commissar-unit in SPWAW? - 6/24/2004 2:42:37 AM

Gallo Rojo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamminji

This is probably a newbie question, but how do you find out how many men have died in a squad? Also if a unit is routed you do not see now many people are in the hex. How would you find that info, without shooting them that is.

jam

In the GENERAL PREFERECES Screen you have to have the "NUMBER UNITS" preferences setted in "NUMBER UNITS All Units".
This will show you the number of units in your sqds and your enemy units as well.
A squad usually has among 8 to 12 soldiers. So if you spot an Sqd with 4 or 6 men you can consider that has lost aprox 1/2 of its soldiers.

If you aren't using the "NUMBER UNITS All Units" Option... well, you will have to guess. But the icon of the infantry sqd looks like having fewer men when the squad have taken some casualties. So you can figure out.

any way ... my advice is: if you don't want to take the risk of that a "routed" unit becoming "pinned" due to a "reversing supression" effect, shoot against it only if you have one of your units in an adjacent hex to the "routed" enemy unit. Because doing that you improve the chances of that the enemy unit gets surrender.

hope that helps

Gallo Rojo

< Message edited by Gallo Rojo -- 6/25/2004 12:11:13 AM >

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