C&C mortar poll

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

C&C mortar poll

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> C&C mortar poll

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

C&C mortar poll - 12/20/2001 3:10:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

How many people are playing with C&C on and how much of an effect on their play styles would it be if it cost a forward observer two or three times the present point cost to call in mortar fire? Artillery as a whole would be unaffected, just mortars - a slight bit of workaround relief would be available since each tube could be its own platoon in many cases. (Thus saving C&C points by using the mortar unit itself to direct fire - wouldn't help for FO with los to target though). Would it help if each mortar battery had an FO as its commander? (ie a mortar battery would be a company with an FO captain commander (more C&C points) and multiple single tube platoons.) I really need answers to this to help decide what direction to go with in my own mortar mod OOBs as well as for suggesting possible additions/enhancements/fixes to future official OOB versons. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

Post #: 1

- 12/20/2001 9:06:00 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

Mortars were normally organic to a unit (perhaps this is not true for some large Soviet or Japanese mortars, I do not know). This means that leaders in that unit were trained and used to calling in fire from their own mortars. This is the whole purpose for having small mortars; cheap hip pocket artillery readily availible to a maneuver unit. This would seem to argue for not adding more cost to call in mortars. I often play with C&C on.

_____________________________

Never take counsel of your fears.

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 2

- 12/20/2001 9:30:00 PM

Alexandra

Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline

Well, here's what I do with mortar's, in any campaign, C&C on, or off. I buy my infantry units, normally by company. I then break down the support platoon, giving each rifle platoon a MG, and, when possible, an AT team. I then take all the Co mortars, regardless of size, and create a new 'Mortar Platoon', with an FO as it's 0 unit. I've yet to have fire probs, C&C on or off, with this setup. Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 3

- 12/21/2001 12:02:00 AM

Redleg

Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline

I have tried similar to Alexandra's method. On occasion, have tried other things. The main thing is to get mortars out of infantry units and into mortar platoons/squads... Especially the 50mm variety. Even tried making my AO an off-board artillery unit one time. ;-) At least I didn't have to worry about commandos in that scenario! Putting a HQ (tent) near a mortar squad works pretty well. I have used a HQ unit for a Fire Direction unit and assigned mortars to that unit to keep orders flowing. Sometimes I assign mortars to a 0 unit ammo truck
or a non 0 unit ammo truck to an 0 unit mortar. Same for Katys. Keeping the number of units in an artillery formation small (say, 2 max) seems to help also.

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 4

- 12/24/2001 10:48:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

Thank you for your responses. Due to various OOB restrictions imposed by certain nation's OOBs (ex Germany's unit portion of that OOB), along with the weapon's breakdown side effect of the v1.2 Mortar Mod with larger mortar sections, and a few other issues, I've decided to go with the single unit per tube multiplier replacement solution for v1.3 of Mortar Mod. To mitigate C&C effects, I'll be creating (where necessary) platoon level formations of a single tube unit - and using company level formations to represent mortar sections, batteries, and platoons. For the larger groupings I'll be using an FO as the 'company' (really battery) commander. I've tested this solution extensively and given the various limitations we are under, I'm convinced it is the best overall solution. The other manual multiplication solutions to the mortar problem all have various side effects that are practically impossible to address. I would also like to address some other mortar related issues such as FO cost and rarity, and secondary weapons, but due to those factors having greater impact to the game than just mortars I'm going to skip any changes of that nature for the present. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 5

- 12/25/2001 1:25:00 AM

richmonder

Posts: 158
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: Richmond, VA USA
Status: offline

"single unit per tube multiplier replacement" I guess I am confused. I thought the 'multiplier' code was screwed up and started this issue in the first place?

_____________________________

Respectfully,
Richmonder
(formerly Gen. Richmond)

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 6

- 12/25/2001 1:47:00 AM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by richmonder:
"single unit per tube multiplier replacement" I guess I am confused. I thought the 'multiplier' code was screwed up and started this issue in the first place?

Sorry for the confusion - yeah the multiplier code is screwed up and is what started this issue - what I meant by that quote was the solution approach which uses X number of single tube per unit units in place of each mortar unit times X multiplier in v6.1 and earlier. Example: a 6.1 unit might have been 81mm mortar x2 - the 'single tube per unit' replacement approach replaces that with two units, each being 81mm mortar x1. The 'manual multiplier' solutions Paul and I used run into problems due to the restricted unit space available in the OOBs (Germany is the prime problem - *no* remaining unit slots). Plus Paul's solution has accuracy problems and my solution runs into weapons breakdown problems. The main problem with the 'single tube per unit' solution is C&C point costs - but by burning up a few OOB formation slots - there's a workaround that gives about the same C&C point cost for mortar battery fire mission orders (overall - it's not clean but close). So far my analysis shows Italy may be the sticking point (only 6 formation slots open), but I still have half a dozen OOBs to double check yet. I'm being careful to try to keep C&C point costs overall in line with what v6.1 would've been *had the multipliers worked* - but even if it costs more C&C points than that would have - you're getting more tubes on target. IOW you'll not only have the correct number of tubes, but they'll actually fire... Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 7

- 12/25/2001 3:57:00 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

When I'm calling in continuous fire to the same location, I'll cycle through the command units using the 'G' key. Using other units, (particularly the Command HQ), excess C&C points, I can call quite a few artillery plots into existing position with no point cost to the FOs or A0.
I then use my meager FO C&C points to call in the new targets and to adjust those continuous fires I replotted with other units. Adjustment of fire has no C&C point cost, but the FOs have the most versatility in this task.
My experience has been that this method provides plenty of command points at a ratio of 3 or 4 Arty units per FO.

I like that suggestion to re-assign arty to an FO. Have to give that a try sometime.

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 8

- 12/25/2001 6:41:00 AM

Stuart Millis

Posts: 217
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline

Now I am confused. I understand that the units with class "80- Light Mortar" are directly controlled by the platoon commander. Therefore all Light Mortars should be divied among the platoons. (digressive note: this is not the case with USSR formation 1072,1074. These mortars should be given to the platoons 1071,1073. Platoon 1073 should probably lose the HMG and in it's place 1074 should have 1112 attached.) Those mortars with class 5-mortar or 82-heavy mortar may be called by any unit that is in contact. Light mortars in formations that do not have an infantry squad in the command slot are not much value- unless they are in LOS of their own target. All mortar fire is much more effective when the observer has direct LOS on the targeted hex. Please note: this is a game code issue and not necessarily related to any army doctrine. btw, I (almost) always play with C2 ON [ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Stuart Millis ]

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 9

- 12/25/2001 7:46:00 AM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Stuart Millis:
Now I am confused. I understand that the units with class "80- Light Mortar" are directly controlled by the platoon commander. [ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Stuart Millis ]

Supposed to be, used to be, but aren't. That limitation was lost in one of the upgrades (unintentionally as I understand it). Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 10