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Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/6/2004 5:42:56 AM

BulletMagnet

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The polish atr rifles are a bad joke rngfinder of 3.I think not.Pen higher than german tank guns...nope. Why is russian atr rgnfinder of 1.

The amount of smoke that infantry pop.Used to only occur when you cranked up the ai level, now happens all the time.

The lethality and accuracy of infantry fire. Way to accurate at too long of ranges.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/6/2004 8:01:36 AM

BryanMelvin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

The polish atr rifles are a bad joke rngfinder of 3.I think not.Pen higher than german tank guns...nope. Why is russian atr rgnfinder of 1.

The amount of smoke that infantry pop.Used to only occur when you cranked up the ai level, now happens all the time.

The lethality and accuracy of infantry fire. Way to accurate at too long of ranges.

Glad to hear your comments. As for the Polish ATR having a rangefinder of three, I'll try to answer as best I can but first let me clarify what Spwaw defines as Rangefinders and Fire Control from the SPWAW Manual as this will clear the air concerning what these are and how they were designed to be used in spwaw system:

The SPWAW Manual states:
--------------------------------------
Rangefinders

A high rangefinder value is vital for long-range shots. This value +1 is
multiplied times 6, 8, 10 and 12 for a series of �range bands� where a penalty of times .67, .5, .33 and .25 kick in. For instance a tank with a rangefinder value of 2 (effectively 3) has a normal hit chance out to 18 hexes (900yrds). At 900-1200 yards, it�s times .67, at 1200 � 1500 times .5, at 1500-1800 times .33 and beyond 1800 yards, .25. If the rangefinder value is greater than 12, it actually improves the accuracy of the first shot (or rather mitigates the penalty against initial shots).

Fire Control and Range Finder

The Fire Control and Range Finder ratings can provide a substantial bonus to a unit�s ability to hit by improving its accuracy. The Fire Control rating is multiplied by five and added directly to the accuracy rating for the unit in question. The range, speed of the firing unit, the speed of the target
and terrain it is in, the unit�s experience, suppression, and the leader�s command rating for that kind of unit then modify this number. This value with one added, times 6, times 8, times 10, and times 12 is used to define �range bands� that impose penalties of �x times 0.67�, �x times 0.5�, �x times 0.33� and �x times 0.25� to the hit chance. For example a unit with a Range Finder value of 2 has a normal hit chance out to (3*6) 18 hexes (900yrds), from 900-1200 its multiplied by .67, 1200 � 1500, by 5, 1500-1800, by .33 and beyond 1800, by .25. Fire control and range finder damage is automatically repaired between campaign battles.

---------------------------------------

These are modifiers used in the spwaw game and not to be used to reflect as actual Gyrostabilizers, optics, super sniper scopes and such as many tend to think.

Why the FC of three for the Polish ATR? Simple, it was one of the best ATR's used in its day. It used, in spwaw terms, an apcr round. To reflect its ability, it was given an RF of 3. Next, compound this with the Early War Polish National Characteristics that Spwaw uses and it balances out. That is, if the "Characteristic�s" setting is turned "ON" in the Preference Menu.

Next, as for the amount of smoke infantry units pop, this really has nothing to do with the oobs. If this could have been changed in OOBs, we would have done so. I went on a check and it appears that the same amount of smoke is used in 7.1 when using Fred's waw editor to check between 8.2. This is when the Realism Preference setting "Reduce Ammo On" is used. If this setting is not used, a unit receives more smoke in both versions.

Manual States:

------------------
Limited Ammo/Reduced Ammo Limited Ammo On - The unit receives the ammunition listed in the purchase screen and the ammunition is reduced when the unit fires.
Reduced Ammo On - The unit receives 50% to 99% of the ammunition listed in the purchase and the ammunition is reduced when the unit fires.
Limited Ammo Off - The unit receives the ammunition listed in the purchase screen and the ammunition is NOT reduced when the unit fires.
-------------------

What setting do you use? This maybe causing the effect you are seeing.

Finally, to your last observation: The lethality and accuracy of infantry fire. Can you be specific on what nation's Infantry you are seeing this occur? Is it possible that the units being fired at have been moving? Or they non-moving? This could be due infantry movement. Can you provide more details here? So this can be pin pointed better.

Thanks for your response.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/6/2004 2:40:19 PM

Voriax

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Bryan, where did you get the info about Polish Maroszek atr being one of the best of its day? What I've read it was a good weapon but did *not* have a steel cored round but instead fired standard 7,92mm mauser round at high velocity. Result was a decent penetration (25mm or so) at close ranges but at longer ranges it was almost useless. It should be only marginally better than Boys atr which was the worst atr of ww2.

Voriax

ps. I have one real Wz.35 round but I'm _not_ gonna cut it open to examine the bullet

Voriax

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/6/2004 8:05:18 PM

BryanMelvin

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I'll check the references for you but I am off to work in a few minutes abd cannot do much right now.

I think Ian Hoggs books on Artillery has this info in them. There are a few others and I'll look these up tonight or next day and let you know more details. ASL may have this info too in its index.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/6/2004 8:35:33 PM

Voriax

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Okay, and what I meant in earlier post was that bullet diameter was standard mauser, but of course the case was longer (7,92x107). Panzerfaust site does not consider this atr very useful http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust6.htm

Voriax

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Post #: 5

polish atr info via google search - 7/6/2004 8:35:51 PM

STEELER13

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http://ankkurinvarsi.com/jaeger/LIBRARY_MAINPAGE.shtml

An SPWAW fan

...anyway, here is the info:

8 mm M/35 Maroszek:

(Pz.B.35)

Calibre:

7,92 mm x 107 DS

Length:

176 cm

Barrel length:

120 cm

Weight:

9,5 kg

Muzzle velocity:

1200 - 1350 m/s

Magazine:

4, removable box

Bullet weight:

14,58 g

Ammunition weight:

64,3 g

Ammunition types:

AP

Basic principle:

Repeater with cylinder lock

Country of Origin:

Poland

Finnish use: Small number (30) used shortly by Finnish frontline troops during early Continuation War.

Armour penetration:

"Arma Fennica 2" (1220 m/s):

100 meters 90 degrees: 15 mm

300 meters 90 degrees: 14 mm

"Polish firearms" website (1200 m/s):

100 meters (90?) degrees: 33 mm

300 meters 30 degrees: 15 mm

"Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich" (1280 m/s, probably German modified ammunition):

300 meters 90 degrees: 25 - 33 mm

"Nowa Technica Wojskowa 6/95 (1250 - 1275 m/s)":

100 meters (90?) degrees: 33 mm

300 meters 30 degrees: 15 mm

This Polish at-rifle was developed by J�zef Maroszek (with T. Felsztyn according some sources) at early 1930's and was accepted to weaponry of Polish Army at November of 1935. Ammunition developed for this rifle had very large cartridge case necked down to use 7.92 mm bullets. Ammunition produced very large muzzle-velocity, but it came with a price - barrel life was very short and barrel needed to be replaced with new one after only 200 shots. If barrel got too much wear the muzzle velocity started to drop very fast. DS-ammunition had lead core bullet with steel coat. The bullet wasn't designed to penetrate through armour, instead it created secondary projectile by when impact punched of a "plug"/"cork"-shaped piece from armour plate it hit. Both this secondary projectile (typically even 20-mm in diameter) and the actual bullet went inside armour vehicle and did damage in there. Poles naturally used these at-rifles against Germans at 1939. Germans captured them in relatively large numbers (at least some 6,500 had been made) and used over 600 of them during their attack to Belgium, Netherlands and France at 1940. After that they gave large number PzB 35(p) (as they called Polish Maroszek M/35) to Italian troops that (mostly to Italian 8th Army that used them at eastern front). German also modified ammunition that Poles had manufactured for this weapon by replacing Polish DS-bullets with same tungsten-cored bullets already used in their own 7.92 mm PzB-39 antitank rifles. This German modified ammunition had 1297 m/sec muzzle velocity.

During Winter War Finland also managed to bought 30 Maroszek M/35 at-rifles from Hungary, but they didn't arrive until March of 1940 (too late to be used in Winter War). When Continuation War started they were issued to Finnish frontline troops, but didn't remain in frontline use very long. Soon they proved to be too ineffective against Soviet armour, when at the same time their small number and rare ammunition type created extra problems they were gathered away and warehoused. Considering from where and when Finns bought the rifles they probably arrived with Polish ammunition. Little by little they were scrapped and the last four M/35 at-rifles were sold to USA at 1956.

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/6/2004 9:22:26 PM

Orzel Bialy

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The Poles had success with this rifle because of the way (or where) they used it...far more so than because of it's performance values.

The penetration values were actually very good for a shell of that caliber...and it was because of it's size and weight that it enjoyed success against the early model panzers and A/C's. It was far more portable and easier to fire from a trench/ditch, a clump of trees, a house or other types of concealment than other ATR's of the day...which were not as easy to move around or conceal.

Therefor it was the close quarter ambushes that accounted for most of the success attributed to the rifle and lead to it being hailed as a "handy weapon" in the 1939 campaign.

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/7/2004 1:50:24 AM

BulletMagnet

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Being of Polish ancestrory myself, Im proud.However consistant kills on a PzIV frontal shots from 8 hexes which corelates to 8x50= 400 meters right? No way. Ok I can handle the accuracy but not the kill rate which coupled with the fact the poles are going to get tons of these It feels like playing against a cheeseball pbem game where someone buys a million zooks. As for Infantry it seems kill rates are insanely high with BOTH target and shooter moving. This is on a fresh install so I know my steel.prf is cool. My Fj company just gets decimated when advancing on advancing polish troops. Even tried "creeping" one hex at a time.

On a positive note the new sounds and icons rock...

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/7/2004 2:12:06 AM

Orzel Bialy

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BM,

Please don't take my post as vindication of the results you are getting.

The post was merely to explain why some sources seem to look upon the Polish ATR as a real gem of a weapon in terms of performance values. In the fog of war somewhere, someone, got confused and lost site that it was the good tactical use of a moderate performing weapon...more so than the weapon being one of par excellence.

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/7/2004 3:15:27 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

it was the good tactical use of a moderate performing weapon...more so than the weapon being one of par excellence.

As concise a statement I've seen to explain the issues with the OOBs over the years. The game eliminates all the "human" errors and variables like bad command structures, out-of-date tactical doctrines, incompetent leadership, faulty supply, and a host of others. Here we have the weapons used in optimal conditions, by fully competent cyber-soldiers, under near-omnipotent leadership. And yet we still try to "swag" the weapons to make them less/more effective, depending on the current "customer complaint".

If the weapon has good stats, and is used effectively, how can anyone say it should perform more like it's real-world counterpart without subjecting it to the same parameters that those soldiers in 1939-1945 existed under?

It's time to stop saying "It doesn't feel right" every time a weapon performs out of expectation...this is a game, and a simulation.

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/7/2004 3:15:41 AM

BulletMagnet

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No prob Orzel. Im just concerned because the side effect of fighting this weapon in this particular time period makes a uber weapon. Nothing in 39 has much armor except maybe some heavy french and russian tanks. Law of probability is in effect here. If i hit your tank 6 out of 6 times at 8 hexes, chances are really good of killing it. I went and replayed it just to make sure its not luck. Same thing. Polish .50 Barret Sniper rifle.

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RE: polish atr info via google search - 7/7/2004 3:51:10 AM

Orzel Bialy

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For me this is another side effect issue of the max range/RoF values of a weapon being used...instead of effective combat ranges and a RoF that was more usual in combat conditions.

Of course that can of worms has been opened before...to very ugly reviews.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/7/2004 4:39:49 AM

Tuli Vapaa

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If Real World is what we 'aim' at, then anything in game can be brought down with AT-rifle. After all, Whitmann lost Tigers from his unit to Soviet 14,5 mm rounds. Straight through the vision block.

Actually, SPWAW does NOT model this fact very well. AT- rifles and guns were accurate enough to aim at different locations and any experienced crew did not waste six shots from Pak 50 in to front armor of KV-1. First four were propably aimed to tracks, two remaining to periscopes at top of the tank and then it was molotov coctail time.

So, if your infantry knows how- and where to shoot, anything could be killed. Perhaps only polish know how to shoot in SPWAW?

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 1:58:44 AM

BulletMagnet

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Maybe so However. If this is true then germany would never have blizkrieged poland. Stopped instantly by the hordes of atr's.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 6:18:00 AM

BryanMelvin

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Okay, here are some of the references:

ASL Ordance chapter H Polish Ordnance Notes section 2. Avalon Hill / Multiman Publishing. States that it used a sub-calibre (apcr type) ammo.

There is also a book on Artillery that has this info on in it but I cannot locate it at the moment. I thought the data was in one of Hogg's books or it could have been Janes's. It is at the local University Library and I cannot get there till the weekend. Sorry..

Here are a few web sites that you may find interesting:

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Wz35.htm

http://miniatures.de/html/int/shells-infantry-anti-tank.html

http://fasttrack.janes.com/janesdata/ft/2358/2435/2446/2455/2456/

http://www.phoenixcommand.com/Boys55atr.htm

http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/

Next, there a few stats out there that I cannot find and maybe one of you could locate the stats for how many German APC's, AVF's, AC's were destroyed/damaged during the 1939 Polish campaign by what weapons as well as how long it took for Poland to fall compared to France, etc.

This is would make an interesting topic to discuss

Let me state that the "UR" wz. 35 ATR used in spwaw is only available to Poland's infantry units from Jan 1937 till the end of 1939 after which the BOYs ATR comes into play. It is only used in this Polish OOB. Therefore, it is used only in a limited manner and disappears viva 1940-1949 eras.

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians. After all, they put up one hell of a fight against all oods

On average, spwaw gives 1939 Polish Infantry an experience rate from 54 to 64 with most rates in the fifties. Morale is about the same but can drop to 48 - 62 ranges. Rally seems to stay in the 50's range. This makes very weak troops.

Unfortunately, spwaw does not portray the Polish forces very well and they are one of the easiest for a player to roll over during an spwaw game/campaign. This was not the case in 1939 Poland. To help offset this - the FC of 3 was given to the "UR" wz. 35 ATR and that is all.

In order to help give the Polish spwaw side a chance - giving the "UR" wz. 35 ATR a FC 3 form 1937 to 1939 was a small consolation. Giving a slight edge in spwaw may help a player of spwaw realize what the Polish people did in defense of their nation. They held out against the odds and took a great toll on both the invading Germans and Russians in 1939. Lets remember to honor the Polish Veterans of WW II and what they did.

Also, lets enjoy the game

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 7:45:08 AM

FlashfyreSP

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Unfortunately, I have been unable to duplicate the claims Bulletmagnet has made concerning the Polish ATR kill rates. The FC rating of 3 does increase the hit percentage, but the number of kills doesn't seem to affected.

I created a test scenario, with samples of all German available armour in 1939. All vehicles have been disarmed, so as to not fire back. All firing was done to frontal armour form 6 and 11 hexes distance, stationary target and firer.

Against 2 armoured cars, 2 PzKpfw I's, 2 PzKpfw II's, and 4 PzKpfw IV's, one armoured car damaged and abandoned, one PzKpfw I destroyed after numerous hits, one PzKpfw II damaged, one destroyed, and one PzKpfw IV suspension disabled.

If interested, I can send a copy of the scenario and the combat.txt log created during this test.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 2:00:40 PM

BulletMagnet

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quote:

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians. After all, they put up one hell of a fight against all oods

On average, spwaw gives 1939 Polish Infantry an experience rate from 54 to 64 with most rates in the fifties. Morale is about the same but can drop to 48 - 62 ranges. Rally seems to stay in the 50's range. This makes very weak troops.

Unfortunately, spwaw does not portray the Polish forces very well and they are one of the easiest for a player to roll over during an spwaw game/campaign. This was not the case in 1939 Poland. To help offset this - the FC of 3 was given to the "UR" wz. 35 ATR and that is all.

In order to help give the Polish spwaw side a chance - giving the "UR" wz. 35 ATR a FC 3 form 1937 to 1939 was a small consolation. Giving a slight edge in spwaw may help a player of spwaw realize what the Polish people did in defense of their nation. They held out against the odds and took a great toll on both the invading Germans and Russians in 1939. Lets remember to honor the Polish Veterans of WW II and what they did.

I catogorical reject this assesment,repectfully of course. The polish did not put up this fantasic resistance your talking about. Look up the word Blitzkrieg. That is not used for a army bogged down by someone putting up a reliable defense.

I guess I will just adjust the unit myself since no one can seem to emulate this. I wish more historical reference went into the making of the oobs instead of one or two people's opnions on how they thought things were back then, especialy since they were not. All of the early war, well documented the Germans ruled the battlefield, ask yourself why not in 8.2?

< Message edited by BulletMagnet -- 7/8/2004 7:04:08 AM >

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 3:41:48 PM

Jackk

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The main thing I do not like about 8.2 is the same thing I didn't like in the past versions. Over and over this "feature" stays in the game while they change darn near everything else.
I really dislike the lack of sleep it causes.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 3:59:24 PM

Voriax

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Bryan, thanks for the refs..the Jane's page gives out blank though...

It is kinda funny that the performance values vary so much, from 15mm to 35mm or so at same range. For me this suggests that the higher values were achieved when firing at mild steel targets.
It could mean different ammunition, but as I recently got a largish box of some rather weird ammo I spent days browsing various ammo collecting websites and I did not see any other Maroszek ammo than the polish round.

As for the miniatures.de..while they have some good stuff their claim that Maroszek round is based on 20mm cannon case with a 'subcalibre' bullet is bullsh*t. The maximum diameter of the case is 16mm and I am not going to believe that a 20mm cannon has such small case

more likely they enlarged standard mauser case. Heck, a 50 bmg case is bigger than Maroszek case.

But anyways, if I feel it is way too big value I'll just use the editor. No matter how individually brave the Poles were.

Voriax

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/8/2004 5:02:18 PM

Orzel Bialy

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German vehicle (both tanks and armored cars) losses in the Polish Campaign were actually rather heavy. According to Steven Zaloga and Victor Madej 674 tanks actually sustained some form of damaged from combat, 217 of those written off as total losses:
89 PzKpfw I's
78 PzKpfw II's
6 PzKpfw 35(t)'s
26 PzKpfw III's
19 PzKpfw IV's

There were reportedly 319 Armored Cars that received some sort of battle damage as well, but there is no breakdown listed as to how many were total write-offs nor how many of each model.

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/9/2004 12:18:54 AM

Hunpecked

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians.

Let me see if I understand exactly what Bryan has written here. To offset a perceived historical inaccuracy in the game (low Polish national characteristics), he deliberately introduced ANOTHER inaccuracy (fantasy value for Polish ATR)?

Please tell me I've misunderstood him!

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Post #: 21

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/9/2004 4:58:06 AM

FlashfyreSP

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The low national characteristic is not perceived, it exists. Whether it's right or wrong is immaterial to the issue of the Polish ATR weapon.

Some facts about the weapon and unit statistics (which really haven't been stated so far):
The Polish ATR unit has an FC of 3. According to the manual, this adds 15 to the accuracy (5xFC rating). The British ATR unit also has this FC rating. Most other ATR units have FC ratings of 2.

The ATR weapon has an AP Pen of 38; the same as the German PzKpfw IIc, and less than the PzKpfw IVc or PzKpfw IIIe, all of which the Polish would face in 1939. It's Accuracy is 28. Claims that it has a higher Pen value than German guns are mistaken.

It also has an APCR rating of 42; this is less than the APCR rating of the PzKpfw IIc, which has a 74. THIS IS THE ONLY ATR THAT HAS THIS RATING.

The Russian PTRD ATR has an AP Pen of 37 and it's Accuracy is also 28.

The British Boys ATR has an AP Pen of 26 and an Accuracy of 20 (the worst of the ATRs).

The Hotchkiss ATR has an AP Pen of 31 and an Accuracy of 24.

The Solothurn ATR has an AP Pen of 32 and an Accuracy of 32.

As can be seen, the Polish ATR has the same Accuracy as the Russian weapon, and a lower one than the Solothurn. It's AP Pen value is the highest, beating the Russian weapon by 1 point. The only significant difference is the APCR rating of the Polish weapon; the reasons for giving it one have been explained previously in this thread.

As I stated before, I have done a test with this weapon, and cannot produce a kill against German medium and support tanks. And it takes a number of hits to kill the light versions. Penetrations do occur, but with little effect; no damage is done.

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Post #: 22

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/9/2004 5:02:27 AM

BryanMelvin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hunpecked

quote:

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians.

Let me see if I understand exactly what Bryan has written here. To offset a perceived historical inaccuracy in the game (low Polish national characteristics), he deliberately introduced ANOTHER inaccuracy (fantasy value for Polish ATR)?

Please tell me I've misunderstood him!

Let me try to state one more time: this was the only unit in the entire set of oobs was adjusted to help a Nation due to poor spwaw NC's. This unit end date is 1939 and has little effect in entire game. How many gamers play against the 1939 Poles verse the Computer or PBEM? I am not sure? Does anyone have a guess?

If anyone does not like this - they can adjust their own Polish OOB's and swap them around and no problem. Also, note that this unit has a rarity of two which limits its purchase for spwaw games. Heck, a player may not be able to purchase these at all or run accross them.

The best way to play a campaign/battle type game is to have Perference setting "True troop Cost/Rarity" set to ON. This was how spwaw was meant to be played but many do not like this feature. With this setting set to On - it really helps the game but again, this feature is an option one can use or not.

All I ask is that people do not judge the entire game by one unit used is 1939 and no where else.

I do ask, play the game and enjoy.

Also note any things that slipped through the cracks. If everyone hates the FC of three - this can be changed viva true update. No problem..

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Post #: 23

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/9/2004 6:01:00 PM

FlashfyreSP

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I think there is a misunderstanding about the Fire Control rating: it only affects the ACCURACY (how often the unit hits a target with the weapon), not the PENETRATION, which determines damage/kill results. Changing the FC down will only lessen the number of hits, not whether it kills the target, regardless of the range. If it's an issue over the number of kills the weapon gets, then change the APCR Penetration rating, because this is what's different from all the other ATRs in the game.

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Post #: 24

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 12:52:09 AM

Belisarius

Posts: 4041
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet
The amount of smoke that infantry pop.Used to only occur when you cranked up the ai level, now happens all the time.

Are you kidding me, bulletmagnet?

In 8.01 (and ALL previous versions), infantry and crew popped smoke like there was nothing else to do! I usually, when routing an enemy squad, end up with smoke trail 5 or 6 hexes long. All. The. Time.

If nothing else, I noticed that infantry (and more importantly CREWS) pop LESS smoke now.

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Post #: 25

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 1:37:01 AM

Losqualo

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I second that. Gone are the days when you could make your oponent lay a smoke screen for you.

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Post #: 26

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 1:44:33 AM

Hunpecked

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

The low national characteristic is not perceived, it exists. Whether it's right or wrong is immaterial to the issue of the Polish ATR weapon.

Fact: 1939 Polish national characteristics (NC) are low compared to 1939 Germans.
Perception: 1939 Polish NC are ahistorically low compared to 1939 Germans.

I used the term "perceived" because at some time someone set Polish NC to the current level, presumably in the belief that they were historically accurate. Also, BulletMagnet seems to agree with the "low" Polish NC, so opinion is not unanimous even today. BTW, I disagree with BulletMagnet and agree with Bryan on this point, but that's another post.

As for the "rightness" of the NC, it IS relevant to the extent that perceived "wrongness" leads a game designer to compensate by making a game adjustment he thinks is otherwise ahistorical.

quote:

Some facts about the weapon and unit statistics...[blah blah].

My thanks to FlashfyreSP for compiling the data. My concern, however, is that Bryan apparently adjusted the ATR FC for play balance and not historical performance.

In an earlier post he claimed the Polish ATR actually WAS an unusually effective weapon (though Orzel Bialy seems to disagree), but since then has twice stated that the FC adjustment was for play balance.

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Post #: 27

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 2:36:44 AM

Hunpecked

Posts: 66
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From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

Let me try to state one more time: this was the only unit in the entire set of oobs was adjusted to help a Nation due to poor spwaw NC's. This unit end date is 1939 and has little effect in entire game. [snip]. Also, note that this unit has a rarity of two which limits its purchase for spwaw games. Heck, a player may not be able to purchase these at all or run across them.

So in other words, "This is important enough to introduce an ahistorical weapon rating, but don't worry because it's not big enough to offset the National Characteristics problem anyway and besides it will only affect a few people and furthermore even they will hardly ever suffer/benefit from it and oh yeah you have to have the really BAD National Characteristics set to ON otherwise the Poles get an ahistorical advantage but only rarely and..."

Now I respect and admire Bryan for his contributions to one of my favorite games of all time, but might I suggest that in this particular case his good intentions have led him just a wee bit astray?

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Post #: 28

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 3:13:22 AM

Hunpecked

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From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

The polish did not put up this fantasic resistance your talking about. Look up the word Blitzkrieg. That is not used for a army bogged down by someone putting up a reliable defense. [snip] All of the early war, well documented the Germans ruled the battlefield, ask yourself why not in 8.2?

From what I've read, the Poles were beaten so quickly for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with their performance at the SPWAW level: (1) Their forward deployment ("defend everything") left them vulnerable to encirclement (2) Their air force was greatly outclassed by the Luftwaffe (3) They had few mechanized units (4) They were outnumbered, especially when you consider that (5) They were attacked by the two largest armies in the world.

In other words, a higher National Characteristics level in SPWAW (tactical level) wouldn't preclude a devastating defeat at the strategic level. When facing comparable forces in a stand-up fight, the Poles could and did give the Germans a tough battle (e.g. the Polish counterattack at the Bzura river).

I wish that Matrix had just bit the bullet and fixed the Polish National Characteristics, or if that was too difficult, posted suggested corrections for players to implement themselves. Either would be preferable to fudging the data for one(!) weapon.

(in reply to BulletMagnet)

Post #: 29

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 3:43:36 AM

Orzel Bialy

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I agree with the idea that the National Characteristic value should have been tweaked instead...but I think that would have required a program modification instead of anything the OoB team had access to.

I have played the Poles on several long campaigns (yes a glutton for punishment you might say) and have seen the majority of my units start out with values that were quite a ways from the listed "average" range.

Made for some were dicey survival at times.