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Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines

 
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Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 12:30:43 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I am playing a human as US in the first-year scenario, need some help on PI strategy from some experienced players.

1. Last Stand: It looks like I will have to commit to either Manila or Bataan as a place to make a last stand. I am leaning to Manila, because it has more supplies and more fortifications; I just hate to give up the CD unit on Bataan. Any thoughts here? Or should I split the forces and do both?
2. Reserves: In the PI you get some great reserves, the ART, ARM, and 4 Mar. I moved them to the front right away, and am holding right now at Clark and Naga a month in. Was that wise though? I decided to try to hold those two points, mostly to use up the supplies there.
3. SUBS: I rebased the subs right away in Soerbaya, figuring that I didn't want to have them sucking supplies from Manila. Smart, or not useful? I don't know how much in supplies subs actually use, that is definitely a longer trip to DEI. PLus, I will have to move them again when DEI falls.
4. I cleared all Surface Ships out of PI right away, even the AS's since I moved the base...the only thing left is PT's, who are dead now anyway. Is that what everyone does?
Post #: 1
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 12:37:42 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am playing a human as US in the first-year scenario, need some help on PI strategy from some experienced players.

1. Last Stand: It looks like I will have to commit to either Manila or Bataan as a place to make a last stand. I am leaning to Manila, because it has more supplies and more fortifications; I just hate to give up the CD unit on Bataan. Any thoughts here? Or should I split the forces and do both?
2. Reserves: In the PI you get some great reserves, the ART, ARM, and 4 Mar. I moved them to the front right away, and am holding right now at Clark and Naga a month in. Was that wise though? I decided to try to hold those two points, mostly to use up the supplies there.
3. SUBS: I rebased the subs right away in Soerbaya, figuring that I didn't want to have them sucking supplies from Manila. Smart, or not useful? I don't know how much in supplies subs actually use, that is definitely a longer trip to DEI. PLus, I will have to move them again when DEI falls.
4. I cleared all Surface Ships out of PI right away, even the AS's since I moved the base...the only thing left is PT's, who are dead now anyway. Is that what everyone does?


I've gotten those little PT's to reak havoc with Japanese landings. They hit and run real well. Have yet to have a single one scratched! The like to torpedo Jap AP's. No sinkings yet but they have done some serious damage as more than a few AP's are shown as "on fire" with "heavy damage" in the Combat Reports. I was able to force two Japanese retreats from Naga before they finally forced me out three weeks in.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 2
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 4:31:58 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Whereas my first experience with the PTs was to see them all get plastered by the IJN CAs, CLs and DDs covering the landings. I just get bad die rolls!!

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 3
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 9:21:08 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		I used the transports at Manila to bring over nearly all the supplies in Manila to Bataan. Manila only has about 2000 supplies left. All my troops are retreating into Bataan immediately, with a few Filipino divisions left behind to stall the enemy. I hope to hold out there for a looooong time.

_____________________________


(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 4
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 12:17:38 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		In the games that I have played (and as the allies I have played this part of the game A LOT) I have found that the best thing to do is as follows:-

1/ Fall back to Clark and Manila. Don't warry about Bataan just yet because if you look at the map the IJN has to go through Clark to get to Bataan. From the first shot fired, pull everything thng back to Clark and start building your fort, same goes with Manila start building forts right away.
Clark should be your "center of gravity" and thatb is where you should concentrate your forces, Manila is not as important but you should at least put up a fight there if only to hold it open while sucking out as much as the supplies as you can. (Send the HQs to Clark and the supplies will follow)

2/ decide if you are going to keep your aircraft in the PI or move them to say Oz or the DEI. I tend to move the B-17s and the P-40s out to Oz as they are far more value to me latter rather than getting shot down over the PI by far more experianced jap pilots. What ever you do keep in the PI make sure that the "accept replacements" is not switched on as this will suck important supply points for little return.

3/ Check oll the industry at Manila and make sure that repair is set to "NO" as this also sucks up valuable supply points.

4/ You are right about the ships, and I have already posted what I do about them in The War Room. But I always like to try and keep 10 subs around just to **** the IJN as much as I can, and I like to have at least 3 AKs in Manila to drain the supplies by loading and sending them to Bataan.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Alikchi2)
Post #: 5
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 4:10:21 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Whereas my first experience with the PTs was to see them all get plastered by the IJN CAs, CLs and DDs covering the landings. I just get bad die rolls!!


Well, you can't go after those initial landings in the north. They are all escorted by heavy cruisers and such. And there is a CVL or two off the coast, early on. Wait until the unescorted landing on the smaller islands on Mindanao and elsewhere. They can do same significant damage against unescorted AP's....

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 6
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 4:13:55 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

In the games that I have played (and as the allies I have played this part of the game A LOT) I have found that the best thing to do is as follows:-

1/ Fall back to Clark and Manila. Don't warry about Bataan just yet because if you look at the map the IJN has to go through Clark to get to Bataan. From the first shot fired, pull everything thng back to Clark and start building your fort, same goes with Manila start building forts right away.
Clark should be your "center of gravity" and thatb is where you should concentrate your forces, Manila is not as important but you should at least put up a fight there if only to hold it open while sucking out as much as the supplies as you can. (Send the HQs to Clark and the supplies will follow)

2/ decide if you are going to keep your aircraft in the PI or move them to say Oz or the DEI. I tend to move the B-17s and the P-40s out to Oz as they are far more value to me latter rather than getting shot down over the PI by far more experianced jap pilots. What ever you do keep in the PI make sure that the "accept replacements" is not switched on as this will suck important supply points for little return.

3/ Check oll the industry at Manila and make sure that repair is set to "NO" as this also sucks up valuable supply points.

4/ You are right about the ships, and I have already posted what I do about them in The War Room. But I always like to try and keep 10 subs around just to **** the IJN as much as I can, and I like to have at least 3 AKs in Manila to drain the supplies by loading and sending them to Bataan.



You can also use some AK's very early to go around and grab the supplies off all those minor little islands and bring them to Manila or Bataan. I like to make a stand for a while in Naga to allow fortifictions to have more time in Manila. The initial Japanese assault at Naga is weak, you can usually force as many as two Japanese retreats before they finally beef up enough. And even then it takes them over a week to root me out of there. Same in the north. After they take the initial three northern bases they tend to move weakly at first. You can force some retreats, again, and give Clark more time.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 7/7/2004 2:19:26 PM >

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 7
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/7/2004 4:15:10 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Guys, great advice thanks! Didn't think to move the HQ's to suck supplies, I thought I would have to camp in Manila only because that's where the supplies are. I should have kept AK's around to move supplies around PI, but it's too late now. Maybe next time!

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 8
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/8/2004 5:45:14 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I'm restarting my game versus the AI based on the advice in this thread, really good stuff here. One thing I'm thinking of doing as an addition is moving the 3 engineer units and 2 PA inf divisions back to Clark as well.

Do you turn off Accept Replacements or let the units rebuild?

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 9
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/8/2004 6:05:15 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline 		As a complete n00b, who played PacWar for ~3 month and now has this monster - how big is the penalty when moving defending units to other bases with respect to the additional points you get when defending their assigned bases.
Guess nobody understands it this way...
When attacking, you can improve results when you define the target of the unit a few weeks ahead to simulate preparation - preparation points is this called, iirc.
If I'm not completly wrong, it works the same way with defending units. I guess at the start of the big one, all allied forces (maybe except China) have their target set on the current base or at least the same as its HQ.
Now with all this moving units around and prob. redefining the target (bringing prep. to 0) doesn't this hurt more then it does good?

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 10
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/8/2004 8:01:33 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Some units have PPs already around 50 and some have it at 0 so check that and consider it before you move. If you do move you can also change the destination hex as the target hex at the same time and accumulate PPs as you move! I turn off all replacements to the PI and select base forces in DEI immediately as this will channel the trickle of reinforcements to critical points that I determine.....think strategically and long term in that regard.

Moving the armor and artillery units forward is good as they are helpful in hitting back at the Japs. Armor is not very good in the defense in real life....

(in reply to WhoCares)
Post #: 11
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/8/2004 8:13:01 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

As a complete n00b, who played PacWar for ~3 month and now has this monster - how big is the penalty when moving defending units to other bases with respect to the additional points you get when defending their assigned bases.
Guess nobody understands it this way...
When attacking, you can improve results when you define the target of the unit a few weeks ahead to simulate preparation - preparation points is this called, iirc.
If I'm not completly wrong, it works the same way with defending units. I guess at the start of the big one, all allied forces (maybe except China) have their target set on the current base or at least the same as its HQ.
Now with all this moving units around and prob. redefining the target (bringing prep. to 0) doesn't this hurt more then it does good?


Just remember.. unless the PPs are 100 I do not believe there is any bonus awarded. Also every day its at 100 the unit has a chance of being trained (increased experience) but only if below 75 I believe. So if its at 100 leave it there for some extra experience.. If its at 0, pick a place to hold up and assign it. Although, I doubt the units will have enough time to build up to 100, it may.

Xargun

(in reply to WhoCares)
Post #: 12
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/9/2004 10:03:29 PM   
daniel123

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 8/30/2000
From: Orlando
Status: offline 		i managed to wipe out the tf bound for Davo. i used the Repulse and PW and other to Davo and in a 3 day battle they destroyed the tf. i dont think i was awarded the points for killing the invading infantry. it was a division ?

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 13
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/9/2004 10:24:54 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

I've gotten those little PT's to reak havoc with Japanese landings. They hit and run real well. Have yet to have a single one scratched! The like to torpedo Jap AP's. No sinkings yet but they have done some serious damage as more than a few AP's are shown as "on fire" with "heavy damage" in the Combat Reports. I was able to force two Japanese retreats from Naga before they finally forced me out three weeks in.


I sent my PTs to the northern landing zone, they got a torpedo apiece on 4 Jap DDs, but got whacked in return. Maybe I should have sent them to other landings; live and learn.
However, I don't think a real commander in the PIs would have held them back anyway.

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 14
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/12/2004 5:58:44 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		So far so good here, I only made a few mistakes. I had my aircraft accepting replacements and they really sucked down the supply. I have 5 or 6 single AK TF's running around gathering as much supply now as they can from the outlying islands and the eastern portions of DEI. The good news is I now have a 40 plane strong P-40e group crated and heading to OZ now.

That leads me to some other questions regarding supply and replacements. When do you stop units from receiving supplies? I'm leaving my base forces to accept replacements now as I need the support, but at some point bullets will be more important than replacements. I think I'll leave them to rebuild until the shooting starts at Clark. I don't know if that will leave me enough supply to fight the battle effectively though.

Also how do you split your combat units between Manila and Clark? Right now Clark is loaded up leaving only 3 PA Divisions in Manila. I'm not sure if this will be enough to hold. I got luck with a 1 DD, 3 PG TF turning back a very lightly escorted invasion force which I think was heading for Manila. So far nothing appears to be heading that way.

I'm using a two hex deep screen of subs in the deep water hexes surrounding the north PI, a DD force in the straights near Manila and 2 PT squadrons each with a destroyer leading them based at Manila. So far so good!

Oh and one of those subs put a torp into a CVL! I think it was Ruijo (or however that's spelled).

(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 15
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/12/2004 11:16:42 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

As a complete n00b, who played PacWar for ~3 month and now has this monster - how big is the penalty when moving defending units to other bases with respect to the additional points you get when defending their assigned bases.
Guess nobody understands it this way...
When attacking, you can improve results when you define the target of the unit a few weeks ahead to simulate preparation - preparation points is this called, iirc.
If I'm not completly wrong, it works the same way with defending units. I guess at the start of the big one, all allied forces (maybe except China) have their target set on the current base or at least the same as its HQ.
Now with all this moving units around and prob. redefining the target (bringing prep. to 0) doesn't this hurt more then it does good?


Just remember.. unless the PPs are 100 I do not believe there is any bonus awarded. Also every day its at 100 the unit has a chance of being trained (increased experience) but only if below 75 I believe. So if its at 100 leave it there for some extra experience.. If its at 0, pick a place to hold up and assign it. Although, I doubt the units will have enough time to build up to 100, it may.

Xargun


Just wanted to point out: Training troops thread
Prep. Points don't have to be 100 to be effective while attacking and defending bases - 100 is only required for training.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 16
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/14/2004 9:04:37 PM   
Synjin


Posts: 46
Joined: 6/6/2003
Status: offline 		Here's the way I did it, so far it's worked for me (especially my sub use), but I guess I'll find out in the long run. I basically fight a complete rearguard action, and in someplaces, all out retreat. I just want to stall the IJA long enough to evacuate as many US units as I can.

I sent about 7 APs and 10 AKs to Manila from nearby DEI islands and disbanded them. I set every unit in the North end to fall back to Clark. I evacuated all other ships except for 1 AS and the PTs. Load any TKs with fuel (I actually brought in a couple from nearby DEI islands) and ship it to some of the DEI bases you'll be using to support your surface tfs (Soerabaja, Tarakan, Balakipena). Remember to keep your evacuation ships to 1-2 ship TFs to avoid big air strikes... you're ships are much harder to detect that way.

Since there were soooo many subs, I figured I could have some fun. I took all the subs, set about 2/3rds of them to base in Soerabaja, and with the final 3rd, I set half of them to base back in Pearl, and left the rest based at Manila...

The ones I left based in Manila, I used as a subscreen between the northern PI and the IJN, along with a couple along the NE coast of the PI (I also used a couple of the Soerlabaja-based subs in this action). With the subs I based in Pearl, I sent them to screen Guam, Palua, and Tinian islands (use high-endurance subs for this).

I took all of the rest of the subs and placed them right along the Chinese coast, ESPECIALLY along the line from Camrahn Bay to Saigon. I didn't double up any hex with subs. This line from Camrahn Bay to Saigon will catch a LOT of transports. So many that after just 2-3 days, you will likely have to replace these subs since they've run out of torpedoes. Working in concert with the Dutch Navy subs, keep this line covered.

Now back to the PI, I sent the CA Houston to Tarakan to meet up with some Dutch CL's and the evacuating DD's from Manila. With this TF (12 or so ships) I really put a smack down on the IJN invasions once they started dropping troops off in the South PI, especially around Davao. If you wanted to, you could also swing the Repulse/PoW TF around the southern side of Borneo and have a 2nd TF to play with, but they aren't as fast and might not be as useful.

I use all the AKs and APs to evacuate units from the Manila/Bataan/Clark area. As I gain enough PP, I use them to switch the HQ to SWPAC. I've since evacuated both Warhawk FGs, the B-17 sq in in the south (which I actually sent to SE Asia). I've also gotten out both Tank, both Artillery units, and the 4th USMC Reg from Bataan, and the USMC CD unit and the AA unit in Manila. Base forces and fighter groups were the last things to leave, and I just got them out as the IJA marched into Clark. All of that stuff is in PM right now or at least on its way.

As for the land war, I have everyone retreating to Clark except for the units around Naga. They were holding strong up until just a few days ago when the tide seems to have turned. I give it another 3-4 days before I'm forced to retreat those as well.

It's Christmas Eve, 1941.

My strategy in Malaya is the exact same, except I was able to evacuate about 90% of my forces to India becuase I didn't need PP to move them. Singapore fell last night.

_____________________________


(in reply to WhoCares)
Post #: 17
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/14/2004 9:47:50 PM   
Brun

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/8/2004
Status: offline 		Instead of basing your subs to Soerbaya send an AS to Balikpapan and operate the subs from there

Brun

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 18
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/15/2004 7:32:51 AM   
Larz6235


Posts: 48
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		Early in my GC AI=Japs, they landed @ Legaspi on the Southern end of Luzon Island. They also make the normal landings in the north.

Intel showed that they had approx. 2500 troops in Legaspi. I had marched my troops from Lagaspi to Naga. I also marched the 2 American Tank battlions, the US 31sr, and the 41st PA to Naga. I had something like 15,000 troops to his 2500. Sure enough, here they come, and attack. I cause them to retreat back to Lagaspi, but I figure the forces the North are still moving slowly South, so I march into Lagaspi and wipe out approx. 3000 japs. They been back yet.

I think it does a couple of things. It give me a place to retreat. Naga. Then Lagaspi. It's easier to get ships into Lagaspi than Manila now to save units.

I've now consolidated in Bataan, Clark, and Manila. I've been able to save both tank battlions, both the USAAF and Asiatic HQ's, and three base forces (large capacity).

Don't get me wrong. No way am I going to hold Luzon, my goal is delay.

Have fun with it. Try different things.

(in reply to Brun)
Post #: 19
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/17/2004 3:25:33 PM   
chili614

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/13/2002
Status: offline 		I played the first month of Scenario 15 and tried to defend the beaches while beefing up Manila and Corrigedor. I sent my subs to other bases and tried to take out as many Japanese ships as possible with my meager forces. I eventually ended up with all my ground forces in Manila and the Japanese captured it on January 6th...

A replay has worked out much better for me. I sent every sub I had out and moved all the ships to DEI with a few down at Davao. I held back the PT and PG units and immediately moved my forces to Clark and Manila. Corrigedor was just left with the CD unit while I split my ground forces with a majority as Clark as the Northern landing force seems larger then the southern one. So far I have lost just about all my bases in the islands but Manila, Clark, and Corrigedor are still holding out on February 12th. The supply situation is beyond critical at this point and I am seriously considering a forced resupply run with the hope of getting 20-30K worth of supplies in with the expected loss of many, many AK's. I feel that the resupply may be worth it in the long run as Japanese efforts and a significant number of troops are tied down in the Phillipines right now and I am getting ready to retake most of Malaysia and some of Indochina right now. I do not know what may happen to my Indian forces when the 100K+ troops attacking Singapore decide to move up the peninsula, but I feel a presence in the Phillipines until May or June may be the key to being able to significantly disrupting the Japanese resource bases.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 20
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/17/2004 4:54:15 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		In my current game against the AI, I held Naga until February 4, 1942, and I still hold Clark, Bataan, and Manila. Supply is certainly a problem, and I made all the newbie mistakes: based my subs out of Manila for too long; left all replacements on. To be honest, I'm surprised I've got as much supply as I do.

At least I didn't suck up supply running B-17 missions out of the PI; they moved to the DEI early.

(in reply to chili614)
Post #: 21
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/19/2004 1:09:07 PM   
chili614

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/13/2002
Status: offline 		Just for information, the PI supply run from Karachi was a dismal failure. Luck counts in war and I had none that day. The Japanese carriers that I had not seen for over a month showed up in the South China Sea as the 15 ship AK-only convoy headed east. Needless to say, there are now 15 fully-laden AK's on the bottom of the South China Sea. The only redeeming thing about the whole incident is when a Dutch submarine had the good fortune of putting two fish into the side of the Akagi.

(in reply to chili614)
Post #: 22
RE: Need Some Advice--Defending the Phillipines - 7/19/2004 4:54:43 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I am fighting for a delay on Luzon and am using many of the tactics found here. So far so good. I only reccomend evacuating one LCU, the 150 Av Support unit and the B-17 BG/S.

Two questions, I've moved as much supply in as I could before the IJN closed the souther approaches to Manilla with airpower.

1) Do you turn off replacements for your defenders? I turn off the air groups, and badly mauled engineer units as I dont want them sucking down supply as they won't add much to the defense late. I do however let the engineers rebuild early as I want their support units. I'm thinking of turning off any replacements now as I want my boys to have bullets once the battle starts.

2) Do you use bombardment missions at Clark? Again I'm concerned about supplies but I'm also worried about leaving the enemy unfettered.

Ok one more:
3) How much do you load up Clark versus Bataan and Manilla? Right now I have 3 Divisions in Manilla, and I left Bataan with its deault load of troops. Everything else moved to Clark. I might have moved a couple of engineer units to Clark just for support.

(in reply to chili614)
Post #: 23
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