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AI vs non-AI - 6/28/2004 5:12:58 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		Are the people at Matrix doing what ADG were going to do, namely release one version with an AI, and one version without one, and then let those that buy the non AI upgrade for a cheap penny??
Then I could atleast play the non AI untill the AI problem is resolved.....

And while I am nagging, what kind of time are we talking until completion of the game? 1-2 years, 5 years or not in my lifetime??? I know I know, alot of work to be done, but after all I have been waiting for this game the last 5 years or so, so I feel I am allowed to be a little restless

But then again thankfully the computer GOD Sid Meyer is making a new version of Pirates that should be out this fall, that should keep me going another 6 months. YEAY Sid Meyer!!

waiting patiently
Post #: 1
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/28/2004 5:44:13 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		I'm guessing here but, based on Matrix's design/release history, I would think Matrix will release WiF as a complete game and not in "modules"......whenever it is released, it wil probably be ready to go as a solo and multiplayer PBEM game....

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 2
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/28/2004 6:42:16 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		If a computer game reviewer gets a computer version of WIF with no AI - they'll pan it.

The amount of time they get to look at a game before writing a review is measued in hours - sometimes in minutes.

I should know - I used to be one!

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 3
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/29/2004 6:45:43 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, but if they wanna wait until the AI is done due to fear of lost sales, what about putting a non-AI for sale from there site, calling it something else, no cd or anything, just a download? If I have to, I would buy first the nonAI to have something to keep me occupied untill the AI version is released. But then again that is just me

(in reply to BurntFingers)
Post #: 4
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/29/2004 6:26:17 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Are the people at Matrix doing what ADG were going to do, namely release one version with an AI, and one version without one, and then let those that buy the non AI upgrade for a cheap penny??
Then I could atleast play the non AI untill the AI problem is resolved.....

And while I am nagging, what kind of time are we talking until completion of the game? 1-2 years, 5 years or not in my lifetime??? I know I know, alot of work to be done, but after all I have been waiting for this game the last 5 years or so, so I feel I am allowed to be a little restless

But then again thankfully the computer GOD Sid Meyer is making a new version of Pirates that should be out this fall, that should keep me going another 6 months. YEAY Sid Meyer!!

waiting patiently



World In Flames Announced
for PC News by dennis_s at 6:37 21 October 2003

Summary:

Matrix Games and Australian Design Group are pleased to announce that the international award-winning wargame World In Flames will be faithfully adapted for computer play. World In Flames is a strategic level game of World War II. The major powers are played by 2-6 players who seek to improve on the performance of their historical counterparts. Read full article for more...

Game Features

· Faithful adaptation of the latest Deluxe version of World In Flames

· Network play

· Play by Email support

· Intelligent computer opponent

· Many optional rules and game system enhancements

Link to WiFC Review at Gamers Hell

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 5
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/29/2004 7:58:37 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		What had confused me when I read this the first time around was that in the paragraph it states: "The major powers are played by 2-6 players.." yet following is listed "Intelligent computer opponent"....so initially it seems that it will be for pbem - hotseat play only, yet an AI is mentioned afterward which means that it could be played by 1 player.....so what is the actual development philosophy for the game?.....

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 6/29/2004 1:00:45 PM >

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 6
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/29/2004 8:34:41 PM   
mavraam


Posts: 436
Joined: 5/11/2004
Status: offline 		My guess is that if you have a copy of WIF at home and a PC, you are almost as far along as Matrix

In all seriousness, when you look at the list of projects going on at Matrix and the complexity of this game, I wouldn't hold my breath!

_____________________________


(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 7
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/29/2004 11:54:50 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		true it states there that the AI will be implented, BUT that is for the final game, actually says nothing about releasing a nonAI temporarily game

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 8
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/30/2004 12:21:12 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		It doesn't state it because I believe Matrix does not have any intention of releasing an AI-less WiF...........

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 9
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/30/2004 4:21:33 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

What had confused me when I read this the first time around was that in the paragraph it states: "The major powers are played by 2-6 players.." yet following is listed "Intelligent computer opponent"....so initially it seems that it will be for pbem - hotseat play only, yet an AI is mentioned afterward which means that it could be played by 1 player.....so what is the actual development philosophy for the game?.....


From: World in Flames Rules RaW-7.doc May 2003

(Just FYI, RaW = Rules as Written)

You can Download this at a-d-g.com.au

1. Introduction

World in Flames (“WiF”) is Australian Design Group’s strategic level game of the Second World War. Up to six players will manage the economies and conduct the military operations of the major nations involved in that conflict, either as a member of the Axis (Germany, Italy and Japan) or as one of the Allies (China, the Commonwealth, France, the USSR and the USA).

We intend this edition of the game to be the final edition. It comes as one of five products:

World in Flames Rules Set;
World in Flames Classic game;
World in Flames Starter Kit;
World in Flames Deluxe game; and
World in Flames Super Deluxe game set.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 10
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/30/2004 4:42:01 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		That was ADG's plan, but that does not necessarily mean that Matrix is going to follow that route.....

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 11
RE: AI vs non-AI - 6/30/2004 4:42:16 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

That was ADG's plan, but that does not necessarily mean that Matrix is going to follow that route.....


At: All Forums >> [Computer Games From Matrix.] >> World in Flames

Read: Matrix Games and Australian Design Group Seal Deal for World In Flames! (2/6/2004 11:03:10 PM)

Especialy: Faithful adaptation of the latest Deluxe version of World In Flames

Even for that date "World in Flames Rules RaW-7.doc May 2003" is the latest version of World In Flames.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 12
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/1/2004 12:16:20 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Sorry but I do not understand the point you are trying to make....the question raised is whether or not Matrix will release a "non AI" version of the game prior to releasing an "AI ready" version....to them, a deluxe version of Wif may be with an AI included....until someone for the development team answers this question, we could spend all day bouncing this back and forth....

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 13
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/1/2004 3:17:36 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Are the people at Matrix doing what ADG were going to do, namely release one version with an AI, and one version without one, and then let those that buy the non AI upgrade for a cheap penny??


Since "Matrix Games" has said on this site (and others) the game will have the following features:

Network play

Play by Email support

Intelligent computer opponent



It doesn’t seem likely there will be a Non-AI version.

Though I don't believe this will stop you from playing the game without using the AI.

Example: A two player game (both human) Axis vs. Allies. Using Hotseat, Email, or network play.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 7/1/2004 1:18:33 AM >

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 14
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/1/2004 5:39:57 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It doesn’t seem likely there will be a Non-AI version.

Though I don't believe this will stop you from playing the game without using the AI.

Example: A two player game (both human) Axis vs. Allies. Using Hotseat, Email, or network play.
It doesn’t seem likely there will be a Non-AI version.



I do not doubt that I can play the final version without Ai, but that was never my question here
I wondered about the possibility of a nonAI release prior to the AI release

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 15
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/1/2004 4:17:00 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Intelligent computer opponent - this meens Artificial Imtelligence (AI).

Since "Matrix Games" has said that there will be Intelligent computer opponent.

This meens there will NOT be a Non-AI version.

Now, if you have a link to a "Matrix Games" post or review that says there will be a non-AI version released. Or a disclaimer that Matrix has changed their minds and changed the features offered by the game. Then it would be possable.

Posting of features to be offered for a game is advertising.
Release of a game not having advertised features (without a disclaimer) would be false advetising.

False advetising is a poor business practice.


(Question) Will there be a non-AI release prior to the AI release?

(Answer) There will NOT be a Non-AI version.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 16
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/2/2004 12:30:08 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Intelligent computer opponent - this meens Artificial Imtelligence (AI).

Since "Matrix Games" has said that there will be Intelligent computer opponent.

This meens there will NOT be a Non-AI version.

Now, if you have a link to a "Matrix Games" post or review that says there will be a non-AI version released. Or a disclaimer that Matrix has changed their minds and changed the features offered by the game. Then it would be possable.

Posting of features to be offered for a game is advertising.
Release of a game not having advertised features (without a disclaimer) would be false advetising.

False advetising is a poor business practice.


(Question) Will there be a non-AI release prior to the AI release?

(Answer) There will NOT be a Non-AI version.

quote:

Posting of features to be offered for a game is advertising.
Release of a game not having advertised features (without a disclaimer) would be false advetising.

False advetising is a poor business practice.



ok I see your point, however we seem to be talking around ourself, and for that I will blaime my english.
My point is that I am fully aware that the FINAL game will have an AI, I merely asked about the possibility of a prior nonAI version, that way your point of false advertising seems out of order for me?? But then again my english ain't the best, so if I am starting to tick u off, I sincerly appologize!

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 17
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/6/2004 10:27:36 AM   
Luke

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/22/2004
Status: offline 		To change the face of this thread a little, it amazes me the number of people willing to flame someone who questions Matrix, and the number of sycophants making excuses for Matrix. Come on, Matrix is a business here to make money (thats what businesses do) if they were prepared to issue a Press release stating they had purchased WIF for development they they should expect the puplic/customers to ask when and be prepared to give an answer, with ot with-out an AI - give an answer. Its called good public relations and customer development.

Luke

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 18
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/6/2004 6:30:40 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		This is not a FLAME!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luke


(1) It amazes me the number of people willing to flame someone who questions Matrix,

(2) The number of sycophants making excuses for Matrix.

Luke


(1) I've seen discussed disagrements but no outright flames.

(2) My support for WiF comes from wanting to see it released ASAP (As Soon As Possiable).


Having read the Version updates that ADG made during the Demo. I would like to say many people who submitted Bug Reports were from a number of non-English speaking nations. Some have problems expressing themselves or understanding an unfamiliar language (English). Then take into effect that I have problems expressing myself (and my native language is English). So sometimes you will have to simplify a previous post you made so someone will understand your point of view. We will both be working hard to be understood and understand each other. Don’t consider this as a flame, consider it as an attempt at clarification.

Bug reports came from such non-English speaking countrys such as Finland, France, Germany, Holland, Russia, and other countries (please don’t be offended if I left your country out).

(in reply to Luke)
Post #: 19
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/6/2004 7:32:54 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		I find you AI people most entertaining! What? Are you going to threaten a boycott if it comes without an AI? Blow up the matrix games facility perhaps? Just look at the amount of posts that amout to little more than "It better come out with an AI or....". Or what? You'll start crying? I get your message. I think David Heath has gotten your message. NOW STOP YOUR WHINING!! An AI will undoubtedly delay the release. So, to me that translates to all you people wanting to delay the release. I think you're more concerned with me not getting what I want than getting what you want. You must be republicans.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 7/6/2004 5:38:32 PM >

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 20
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/6/2004 7:53:45 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I find you AI people most entertaining! What? Are you going to threaten a boycott if it comes without an AI? Blow up the matrix games facility perhaps? Just look at the amount of posts that amout to little more than "It better come out with an AI or....". Or what? You'll start crying? I get your message. I think David Heath has gotten your message. NOW STOP YOUR WHINING!! An AI will undoubtedly delay the release. So, to me that translates to all you people wanting to delay the release. I think you're more concerned with me not getting what I want than getting what you want. You must be republicans.


What planet are you from? No one in this thread is whining about the AI....the discussion is centered on whether or not Matrix would consider releasing an AI-less version of the game, before they went on to the more complex AI version....NO one here is whining but you, about something that did not even occur in this thread....go back to school and learn basic reading and comprehension skills so that you can stop making a fool of yourself...

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 21
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/6/2004 9:34:08 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		What I would love here, is some input from the ppl at Matrix.
The question beeing will I be able to buy a nonAI game first, to
keep me going until I buy the AI version of the game some
(alot) of time later??

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 22
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/7/2004 12:29:05 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		And so the creator of this thread has thankfully brought us full circle back to what the original question was....hopefully someone from the design team will answer soon.....

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 23
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/7/2004 3:28:03 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

What I would love here, is some input from the ppl at Matrix.
The question beeing will I be able to buy a nonAI game first, to
keep me going until I buy the AI version of the game some
(alot) of time later??


There are some posts from Matrix staff:

David Heath (Administrator).

Robert Crandall (software developer "Flashpoint: Germany" and "World in Flames").

See:

[Computer Games From Matrix.] >> World in Flames >> It's a disgrace >> Page 2

Just FYI: The "It's a disgrace" thread changes to "Re: Cancon 2005" on Page 2.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 24
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/7/2004 4:38:55 AM   
Luke

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/22/2004
Status: offline 		Mzlin

To help you with your english language I would suggest that the jist of my post was that there are a lot of people making excuses, and inventing reasons with out the facts to back them up. That Matrixs has an obligation to its community to give it the facts and information. They are Big Boys now and should accept their responsibilities.

Luke

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 25
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/7/2004 8:13:20 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Then you should be happy to read Robert Crandall's (software developer "Flashpoint: Germany" and "World in Flames") 7/1/2004 2:24:26 AM post.

[Computer Games From Matrix.] >> World in Flames >> It's a disgrace >> Page 2

The gist of which is he's still gathering information and serious work can't start on CWiF until after Matrix releases "Flashpoint: Germany" (hopefully this month).

This is relevant to this thread because he states...

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCrandall

My queries re doing the impulse system by email and AI levels and expectations met with all kinds of different answers and no one theme emerged. Darn, so much for easy short cuts.


(in reply to Luke)
Post #: 26
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/10/2004 9:43:44 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		Look J P,let's not get hostile here.For your sake, I really hope it has an acceptable AI(believe me).If I'm the only one on this page that would like to get his hands on a pre-AI version while Matrix finishes the AI code (and as I see it, this should in no way delay the release of the AI equipped version) then perhaps I should let it go. You suggest that I was talking about everyone whining.That's not true.Only a couple,youself included.

"Aye but if it's trouble you be looking for........."

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 27
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/11/2004 1:32:33 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		You must be a Democrat.....

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 28
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/12/2004 1:10:00 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

I know a little about software development since I used my skills in that area to pay my rent for over a decade. While working as a betatester on Flashpoint Germany over the last few months I have been extremely impressed by Robert Crandall's skills with AI. IMHO the reason Matrix put him as the lead developer on CWiF is so he can add that AI-centric expertise to the game.

This is my opinion only.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 29
RE: AI vs non-AI - 7/12/2004 4:36:03 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		I once again ask the people at Matrixgames to answer, will we have the option to but a earlier nonAI version of the game or not?

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 30
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