Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

Yes, the directive state that it is the obligation of the non-EU supplier. He has to register, charge and remit VAT to the respective authorities (in addition, he has to file quarterly reports). Of couse, like every EU Directive, this one has also to be implemented into the law of the respective Member state (the deadline for that was July 1st 2003).

You are right that the equivalent of this taxation of electronically supplied services for physically delivered goods is customs. In fact in these cases, VAT is "replaced" by customs (I know that this explanation is a simplification of the real issues)

And this is not at all about the legal domain of the EU going beyond its borders, in fact it is exactly about something that happens INSIDE its borders (so-called "place of consumption") under the OECD principles of the 1998 Ottawa conference.

I do not want to fight for this regulation at all, but that's the way it is ...

If we ever discuss ENFORCING this regulation ... that's a very different question and actually an interesting one.

My main point is this: I am totally convinced that it is NOT Matrixgames fault at all - they contracted with DR to outsource the digital download services and they are paying for it (in fact, DR is taking its share from our payments ...). They should demand from DR that the services of DR are running flawless (which is NOT the case) and that they do not fend off customers of Matrixgames, because that is hurting everybody involved. This discussion here give MG some ammunation for its discussion with DR and hopefully they will change it.

Chuck

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal
Matrix's best solution is NOT to work with an EU-based digital distributor like DR. They should work only with US-domiciled servers or non-EU servers (Switzerland, Norway) to distribute 'digital download' items.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

I wouldn't say that it is impossible at all to enforce this regulations, but it is at least VERY difficult.

Without going too much into the general principle that civilized countries normally try to respect other civilized countries laws (the fact that any court outside the EU MAY not enforce this law does NOT make it illegal at all), the EU is well aware that there is an enforcement issue. They used an interesting example in one of their memos by suggesting that non-EU suppliers should be in compliance with this regulation in the same way as they expect others to respect their rights and expressly mentioned Intellectual Property ...

And again, it is probably totally irrelevant where DR is located, if Matrixgames is selling through DR as a service provider, because in this case Matrixgames is responsible for the taxes and not DR (there may be contract provisions that DR will indemnify Matrixgames if any problem arises, put that's another issue). And in addition, the place where the server is located is also not relevant for this matter.

Chuck

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal
Matrix's best solution is NOT to work with an EU-based digital distributor like DR. They should work only with US-domiciled servers or non-EU servers (Switzerland, Norway) to distribute 'digital download' items.

I think it's up to Matrix to determine what's in their own best interest. They certainly know more than you do about their business.

If Matrix distributed their games exclusively through digital download they might not need a Euro presence. However most of their games are delivered the old fashioned way. Having a Euro distributor is a service to their European customers. In this particular case, with an entirely new method of distribution, there were some bumps in the road. They clearly are concerned and are addressing the problem.

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

I wouldn't say that it is impossible at all to enforce this regulations, but it is at least VERY difficult.

Without going too much into the general principle that civilized countries normally try to respect other civilized countries laws (the fact that any court outside the EU MAY not enforce this law does NOT make it illegal at all), the EU is well aware that there is an enforcement issue. They used an interesting example in one of their memos by suggesting that non-EU suppliers should be in compliance with this regulation in the same way as they expect others to respect their rights and expressly mentioned Intellectual Property ...

And again, it is probably totally irrelevant where DR is located, if Matrixgames is selling through DR as a service provider, because in this case Matrixgames is responsible for the taxes and not DR (there may be contract provisions that DR will indemnify Matrixgames if any problem arises, put that's another issue). And in addition, the place where the server is located is also not relevant for this matter.

Chuck

Laws of one country are not enforceable outside that country. This is not an issue of 'civilized' or not. Unless you believe that because a woman is convicted in Saudi Arabia of adultery but escapes to the UK, for example, she should be lapidated in the UK, which would be enforcement of Saudi Arabian law.

Again, as long as the provider of the service is outside the EU, there is no need to charge VAT. The EU cannot send its police to Omaha, Nebraska, or whereever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

This thread is one hell of a boring waste of time over $10 or $20 US. Consider the value of time and effort. There are five plus pages of posts that could have gone into the game discussion.

I feel for the guy who thinks he got stiffed but stuff happens.

This issue is way over blown.

"Send in the Infantry. Tanks cost money... the dead cost nothing..." :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

@MG3

All kidding aside, I'm sure you will be glad you bought this game once you get into it, no matter that it wound up costing you 10 or so Euros more than you would have liked.

I sat here for almost three years waiting for this thing. It was always stated to cost 69.99 American dollars. I thought that I would see a standard production cycle, use my credit card on the Web site, pay that amount plus postage for a CD, wait a few days, and that would be it.

Oh, no. Down toward the end, along came "digital download." It cost the same $69.99, but you got no CD. Moreover, here I sat in the dark, wooded areas where DSL and cable Internet connections have yet to penetrate. Another ten bucks, and I could get a CD shipped, at some indeterminate time in the future, as a "backup." 56k downloads of 466 Mb programs don't have much of a track record for being successful.

I was p1ssed. Several people who showed up at the Origins convention this summer in Columbus, Ohio were able to buy multiple CD copies of the game. Living a couple of thousand miles away from the convention site and not having as much money as God, I had no such opportunity.

So, what did I do? I spent 80 bucks for what I thought was going to be a 70 buck game in order to get the eventual sure thing, then went for the 5 1/2 Kb/s download to try to get it as soon as possible. First time around, I got timed out on my ISP server after I had 27 percent of the game downloaded (this was the first time I knew that my ISP even timed you out on its servers). I hit the download button again. DR and Internet Explorer understood each other, and I was able to resume from where I left off.

Along about 3:30 a.m., I hit the wall again at 55 percent. This time, the whole deal screwed the pooch and I was dead in the water. I watched in horror as some 260 kb file downloaded and then IE announced, "Download complete." Obviously, I had 250 Mb or so of garbage. It headed for the recycle bin. 16 hours invested, 16 hours down the oubliette.

As I was fishing around in my cutlery drawer for a suitable instrument with which to slash my wrists, I saw a recommendation on these forums for a download manager called "GetRight." As I'm not getting any fish taco right now, I decided, "Okay, one more time. I got no other life."

It was 5:30 p.m., Friday afternoon. I fired up GetRight, got back onto the download page, and let 'er rip. Got bounced off my server at almost exactly the same point as I did the first time. Reconnected to the Internet. GetRight and DR resumed the two-humped beast position without difficulty.

I realized that the next roadside bomb would explode at around 55 megs. I calculated that to come at around 3:00 in the morning or so. I settled back, imagining the tortures that I could visit on Gary Grigsby, David Heath, and the rest of the infidel swine at Matrix and 2by3. I lasted a long time, but finally fell asleep.

I awoke, shagged and fagged and fashed, at 5:00 a.m. I blearily wiggled my mouse (no editorial comments, please) to reactivate my screen. Sure enough, I was dead in the water. I thought, "This is it. This is the end. Or at least the end of the beginning. Or maybe the beginning of the end." You can see how crazed I was in my silk panties.

In pain, I reconnected to my ISP. Amazingly enough, GetRight and DR still lusted after each other enough that my download resumed where it left off. So did I.

I tried to get up and occupy myself with household chores. I mopped the kitchen floor. I kicked Eleanor Rigby out from behind the door. The toilets (WCs to you like) and I went to war. All the while, I kept an eye on the dialogue box, calculating where I was. Two thirds. Less than 200 megs to go. Three quarters.

I knew whaat was coming. The end, inglorious and detestible, like Gregor Samsa on the wall. This was in accordance with my usual bad luck in drawing cards at poker and picking numbers in lotteries. I was never destined to finish this download. Even more, if I did, the d@mned thing would never install, much less run.

I hit 84 percent. Bam! I could hardly breathe. Pow! GetRight and DR, like two exhausted lovers, fell apart from each other right in front of my eyes.

I went for a walk outside, trying to clear my head. All I could think was, "I coulda been a contenda. Instead, I wound up a two-bit punk." Realizing how silly that was, I went back in to face the music. Gingerly, I popped up my ISP connection dialogue. Breathlessly, I entered my password. With a silent prayer, I hit "enter."

Like an episode of "The Outer Limits," GetRight yanked control of my TV set away from me like a big dog after a pork chop on Grandma's lap. Suddenly, the little fluttery document was flying across the dialog box again. The 10-kilobyte increment numbers were advancing like the LED display on a gas pump (faster for money than for gallons, of course).

I was frozen in time. I was the steak from the Stones' "Mother's Little Helper." I was transfixed (okay, I wasn't crucified, but it was a cathartic moment nonetheless).

To make a short story long, the counter counted off the counting until the counting was done. 26 hours it took (with a couple off for dozing). I had it.

I couldn't stand it. Feverishly, I got off the Internet (what is that again?) and double-clicked on that treasured icon. It installed, for Chrissake. More miraculously than that, it ran. It ran like a Kennedy for public office.

I've never been the same.

Before or since.

Ten bucks or so? Forget about it. It's the experience, not the dough.

I still ain't got the CD.

quote:


ok trip in the maritaimes.. note I said first trip.. so this was maybe 1988 or 1989.. in new bruns or Nova Scot.. and I think it was 12 and 7.. but the first tax was applied after totallying not like you would just add the two together like in the states.. I pay a sales tax on most goods in CO, live in the denver area and pay city and state... different stores in different city sights have different taxes...

My point wasn't the 22% after factoring.. it was my shock... talk about shock and awe.. I really love canada, most of Canadians are wonderful...

(in reply to Feinder)

quote:

ORIGINAL: soeren01
The laws requiring the VAT are fairly new ( it passed legislation some month ago ) and are part of the European Union Tax Laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal
The directive does not state that it is the obligation of the non-EU supplier to collect the VAT. It only says the transaction is subject to VAT. It is the resident of the EU country that has to pay the VAT. Thus if I am a resident of an EU country and buy a book at Amazon.com in the US, it is up to me to pay VAT when the package goes through customs. Same for software, no matter what the transmission method. The legal domain of the EU cannot go beyond its borders.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

You were not overcharged. You were not cheated.

Now, let me deal with the issue of being charged taxes. It is common practice in the United States for prices *not* to include applicable taxes. Oftentimes, the calculation of those taxes cannot occur until specific informaiton about where the product is shipped are known.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

74.98EUR +17.5% VAT => 88.10EUR

And converted to $:
88.10EUR *1.22 = 107.48$

So, via EU shop you pay 34% more than in the US for the same product!

quote:

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

I want to make this clear again. Not we are selling these products it´s Digital river that is selling them. They´re our sale reps. And they´re based in the EU.

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

I want to make this clear again. Not we are selling these products it´s Digital river that is selling them. They´re our sale reps. And they´re based in the EU.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.



Pascal,

So your message is basically: Go wherever you like, decide for yourself and by your own ethical standards if you like the laws of this country or not and violate all the laws you don't like - that's ok, because they will not be able to punish you? (That may be illustrate my point about civilized).
You are right that the risk of actual punishment is very low (although you would be surprised that it is indeed often possible to enforce the laws of one country outside that country), but that doesn't legitimize your actions.

Point is: I don't think that the EU VAT system is a good one (we haven't talked yet about the real problems with the handling: 10 different VAT rates that range from 15% to 25%!!!), but if you are coming from outside and want to purposeful do business in this area, it is not up to you to decide, what is right and what not.
The "message" from the EU memo I mentioned is: A software company from outside the EU (like Matrixgames [Example]) (rightful) expects the European courts and executive to enforce it's rights in the EU (especially IP: Trademark, Copyright, Patents) and go after fraud with credit cards or theft of its property - in exchange, the EU expects this company to respect the EU rights.

Chuck

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
But don't be mad at Matrix (or the CD downloading service) as if they didn't charge the tax you can be sure some euro government would come after them legally... Same as the US government would if they didn't charge some sales tax for certain states...

All in all, just a big miscommunications that I think Matrix is working to correct...

quote:

ORIGINAL: onnel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Things are the way they are, and Matrix is correct (even in having a separate EU price, that is certainly their perrogative).

Definitely their perogative, but they had better be prepared to defend that decision if they don't want some very pissed off customers (or would have been customers). Charging a higher price for a digital download from one location and not another (and I'm not talking about the sales/VAT/luxury tax issue) is not too kosher in many of our books.

Secondly, Matrix is not exactly correct. Displaying a price in the UK or Germany (cannot speak about the rest of the EU) and then adding in tax after the customer has confirmed is ILLEGAL. What you confirm is what you are charged. Anything else is against the law.

quote:


a ha ha !
Der war gut....

1.) Beleidigst Du lediglich Dich selbst oder Deine Intelligenz,
Du regst Dich darüber auf, ein Programm gekauft zu haben und es war zu teuer `? Oh jeh... hat Mami geschimpft ? Hör mal, wenn es Dir zu teuer war, dann hättest Du VORHER nachdenken müssen
2.) Um welchen Betrag war es Dir denn zu teuer ? Oder haste es installiert, erkannt daß Du dem Spiel nicht gewachsen bist und machst jetzt dicke Backen ?
3.) Als ich das Programm bestellt habe, WUSSTE ich daß VAT dazukommt. Ebenfalls war mir bekannt, daß 64,99 € mehr sind als 64,99 $
4.) Nirgendwo steht geschrieben, daß Matrix nicht unterschiedliche Preise verlangen kann ? "Wir" Europäer sind halt etwas wohlhabender und deshalb werden wir mehr zahlen müssen. Du hättest ja VORHER nachdenken können.

Fazit:
Die Pisa-Studie hat Recht, D ist auf dem absteigenden Ast und Du bist das beste Beispiel.

PS: Vielen Dank für die Rücksicht auf die englischsprachigen Leser des englischsprachigen Forums....
PPS: Ich find es klasse daß Du so viel gezahlt hast und NOCH besser, daß Du Dich aufregst...

und tschüss

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal
from the looks of it if you buy from the US site of Digital River and give a non-EU country as your country, you don't pay any VAT.