We need a display when coastal guns attack our ships when they pass through a hex.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> We need a display when coastal guns attack our ships when they pass through a hex.

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We need a display when coastal guns attack our ships wh... - 7/8/2004 7:36:52 AM

Tanaka

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It doesnt make sense when my ships start sinking and I dont even know why.

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 7:38:23 AM

MadDawg

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Ahh, so at the moment there isnt any notification given? That might explain some of the odd damage Ive seen on my ships at times. Hmm, it might be a good use for that unused Bombardment graphic :-)

Dawg

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 2

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 8:00:49 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Ahh, so at the moment there isnt any notification given? That might explain some of the odd damage Ive seen on my ships at times. Hmm, it might be a good use for that unused Bombardment graphic :-)

Dawg

just send your ships through to manila. all of the sudden tons of ships will just start sinking out of nowhere. because i dont know what is happening im guessing they have been attacked by cd's from bataan...

(in reply to MadDawg)

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 9:07:43 AM

Faker than Hollywood

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Joined: 7/8/2004
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quote:

It doesnt make sense when my ships start sinking and I dont even know why.

Tanaka, Hi ! If you decide to bombard the US west coast and one day hopefully seal off the Panama Canal-- as the USN wargamed prior to WW II-- will your ships get capped by San Diego, LA, Frisco, Portland, and Seattle and you won't be aware of incoming or have counter-battery fire ? What happens if you try to interdict krummie kommie L/L and AlCan as a USEFUL axis ally ?

Bansai/Victory at Sea ! http://victoryatseaonline.com/

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 4

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 1:23:26 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Coastal guns are too accurate vs bombarding ships...not like they are stationary all the time. But, as Nikademus pointed out, how could ships successfully bombard Simpson Harbour and all the Rabaul airfields in real life, or most other bases? I'd say, reduce the chance of both suceeding BIG TIME! Hell, Henderson was flying aircraft the morning after Kongo and Haruna plastered it. If the results in this version of WITP were accurate, would any vessels be afloat to land troops at Normandy?

Why not nix ability to bombard airfields altogether (aside from atolls)...it's a sixty mile hex and the fact that Henderson was bombarded should not be the reason why all should be vulnerable? Yamato's gunnery officer was on Guadalcanal when Kong/Haruna hit the airfield...this is not the norm at all. Most times, they missed Henderson completely, and it was on the coast.

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 1:29:02 PM

MadDawg

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Some interesting points Ron! I think that bombarding at night should be particually hit and miss, as spotting the shells landing would be a much more difficult task than a daylight bombardment.

Ive mentioned elsewhere too that i think the AI could be a little smarter when bombarding....if it starts taking shells or if CD's are known to be in the area I think it should back off and use the big guns on the BB's (or the biggest it has) instead of moving in and getting the DD's trashed.

Dan

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/8/2004 11:30:12 AM >

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 6

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/8/2004 1:38:53 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Some interesting points Ron! I think that bombarding at night should be particually hit and miss, as spotting the shells landing would be a much more difficult task than a daylight bombardment.

Ive mentioned elsewhere too that i think the AI could be a little smarter when bombarding....if it starts taking shells or if CD's are known to be in the area I think it should back off and use the big guns on the BB's (or the biggest it has) instead of moving in and getting the DD's trashed. ,
Dan

Point to note. Given the Atlantic Wall defences, how many DDs were hit, even sunk, at Normandy? Hmmm... Further, Hayate was sunk at Wake, Renshaw was another victim later in war. I don't know of any other assault bombardment ships being sunk during four years of pacific combat. Something to think about when three DDs sink vs a few 155s in our beloved game.

Perhaps CDs could be limited to engaging troops, LCs etc. Exception being those hexes with dedicated guns like Corregidor which had director control etc. I was in the artillery and know how hard it is to hit a moving target in local contol...unless designed to engage moving targets and well camouflaged/armoured, arty should be ineffective vs ships. Fire and die! Hell, during a competition direct fire shoot, I had the best trained gun crew and a previous detachment commander gave me the range to target (always some cheating going on to fix bets) and I still missed the static target with the first round! (hit with next four) Can't imagine getting too many off under counter battery fire vs a moving target!!! The stuff we see in the combat reports in WITP is pure fiction. LCU arty support would be either mincemeat or moving...therefore not firing.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 7/8/2004 10:52:53 PM >

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 12:10:55 AM

Faker than Hollywood

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quote:

Henderson was flying aircraft the morning after Kongo and Haruna plastered it.

Ron, Foss and many others testify to the terrible effectiveness of thse Cactus bambarments. Borken aircraft, fatigued pilots, shattered nerves from unseen death howling indescriminately in from above. Bombard is so effective that modern superpowers have demothballed and recommissioned battlewagons simply because they wreak mulitples of Anzio Annie havoc that can and must be sent to Davy Jones by any means neccessary or they will reign supreme. Those capital ships can be sunk, but Jap should use them up close and then run them aground and keep firing until they're turned into Bismark scap-iron if that's what it takes because sooner or later the USN will sink them anyway if they are not fought to victory early on at risk of any losses. Time is not on IJN's side.
You are right when you point out that the american warriors at Henderson were not average fighters-- they fought to win using enemy equipment, food, saki, and dodging craters on the take-off roll when they could get unstuck from the mud.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 12:55:46 AM

UncleBuck

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From: San Diego, CA, USA
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Remember that before the US attacked an island in teh Pacific or a beach in Europe, they proceeded it with lots of air attack, and ahd usually cut it off for some months from meaningful supply. The instances of when they did not follow this doctrine are very famous, Pelieu andTarawa come to mind quickly. At Normandy, we did not land many transports, instead they were LCI's/LCVP's and they were plastered on Omaha beach. If you have not "Prepped" the beach then the CD's should tear you a new one. In UV and now WitP I beleive we get to excited and move to quickly. It seems to take forever to invade a position. Instead of planning and invading a base within two weeks of making that decision, how about interdicting shipping for a month, then running daily bomber strikes for a month into the target base, and the surrounding bases, then send in bombardment groups for a couple weeks, then send in the troops. This I think will slow the loss of escort ships to CD's.

UB

(in reply to Faker than Hollywood)

Post #: 9

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 2:21:15 AM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Remember that before the US attacked an island in teh Pacific or a beach in Europe, they proceeded it with lots of air attack, and ahd usually cut it off for some months from meaningful supply. The instances of when they did not follow this doctrine are very famous, Pelieu andTarawa come to mind quickly. At Normandy, we did not land many transports, instead they were LCI's/LCVP's and they were plastered on Omaha beach. If you have not "Prepped" the beach then the CD's should tear you a new one. In UV and now WitP I beleive we get to excited and move to quickly. It seems to take forever to invade a position. Instead of planning and invading a base within two weeks of making that decision, how about interdicting shipping for a month, then running daily bomber strikes for a month into the target base, and the surrounding bases, then send in bombardment groups for a couple weeks, then send in the troops. This I think will slow the loss of escort ships to CD's.

UB

I agree completely. I think we are seeing lazy play if CD batteries are sinking your ships. Pound your target for days by air and cause the disruption and fatigue first before sailing into the hex.

An undisrupted coastal battery should blow anything out of the water that sails under its guns. Ships had to deal with the same problems of targeting on the move as the shore guns, and they also rolled in the surf from broadsides, shore guns should win the gunnery duel every time in my book if it's an even standup fight (range abilities and caliber). After all you didn't sink the shore battery; you had to actually hit each weapons emplacement to take them out. Even a near miss could potentially sink a ship if the hits concussion could cause a break in the hull.

The allies blew every bridge leading into Normandy and interdicted supply for months ahead of the landings. To equate running under the guns of a CD battery on an island assault with the Normandy landings is ridiculous. Most Allied combat ships were well out of the range of the guns at Normandy, until later in the day when the destroyers moved in to engage the emplacements at Omaha.

By then the emplacement crews probably had target fixation on the thousands of beach area boats and probably didn�t even see the destroyers moving in until their shells were pounding their positions. They were probably very low on ammo to boot. Hence they were well disrupted by then.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/9/2004 12:23:20 AM >

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 6:24:52 AM

Tanaka

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Im not complaining about the CD effectiveness at all. I just wish I could get some kind of animation or pop-up screen when I pass through a hex containing CD's telling me my ships are being fired on and sunk. Unless you are invading or attacking you dont know they have been fired upon. Its wierd just seeing messages saying your ships are sinking.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

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RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 7:52:06 AM

brisd

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I agree with Tanaka on this one. I screwed up playing my current game as Japan vs AI, took Manila and then tried sending ships there while Bataan was still US held. I started losing ships and I thought it was due to a minefield so I sent MSW's and they sank too.

It was late, I was tired, so I didn't put two and two together and I also missed the part in manual where it said only way into Manila is Bataan. I have no complaints about the CD's effectiveness, it and the one at Hong Kong have sunk over a dozen various ships. It would have been nice to have more indication that it was happening during movement phase. I feel stupid about the Manila episode as I know all about Corrigidor and still sent the ships there. Sometimes when you are looking at so much detail something slips by, esp. if it is your first time. CD's are deadly!

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(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 12

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 8:11:28 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

I agree with Tanaka on this one. I screwed up playing my current game as Japan vs AI, took Manila and then tried sending ships there while Bataan was still US held. I started losing ships and I thought it was due to a minefield so I sent MSW's and they sank too. It was late, I was tired, so I didn't put two and two together and I also missed the part in manual where it said only way into Manila is Bataan. I have no complaints about the CD's effectiveness, it and the one at Hong Kong have sunk over a dozen various ships. It would have been nice to have more indication that it was happening during movement phase. I feel stupid about the Manila episode as I know all about Corrigidor and still sent the ships there. Sometimes when you are looking at so much detail something slips by, esp. if it is your first time. CD's are deadly!

this is the same way i finally figured out what was going on

(in reply to brisd)

Post #: 13

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 7:11:03 PM

Mike Scholl

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Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Coastal guns are too accurate vs bombarding ships...not like they are stationary all the time. But, as Nikademus pointed out, how could ships successfully bombard Simpson Harbour and all the Rabaul airfields in real life, or most other bases? I'd say, reduce the chance of both suceeding BIG TIME! Hell, Henderson was flying aircraft the morning after Kongo and Haruna plastered it. If the results in this version of WITP were accurate, would any vessels be afloat to land troops at Normandy?

Why not nix ability to bombard airfields altogether (aside from atolls)...it's a sixty mile hex and the fact that Henderson was bombarded should not be the reason why all should be vulnerable? Yamato's gunnery officer was on Guadalcanal when Kong/Haruna hit the airfield...this is not the norm at all. Most times, they missed Henderson completely, and it was on the coast.

RON This statement all depends on what "coastal guns" you are talking about. During the Pacific War, quite a lot of artillery
was deployed where it could shoot at ships when the opportunity arose. But true COAST DEFENSE ARTILLERY is not just a
bunch of guns able to fire into the ocean..., it is a specialized branch of the service. The problem is that in the game this
distinction seems to have been blurred. Numerous accounts during the fighting in the Solomans have Japanese Guns engaging
naval targets. The usual results were a few DD's taking them under fire and knocking them out or supressing them in short
order. Without the specialized plotting and spotting units of true Coast Artillery, guns weren't that effective against shipping.
But WITH it, they were DEADLY. The example you use in another message of the Atlantic Wall is a good point. Only at a
few Port Strongholds did the Germans have real Coast Artillery along the Wall. The rest were field guns of every imaginable
type, nationality, and quality emplaced to fire on the beaches and landing grounds. Few ships were hit during the invasion
because it was made between the "Fortified Ports"..., but a couple weeks later when the US Navy attempted to engage the
Coast Artillery of Cherbourg it was driven off in with ease. Same is true of the Phillipines, where the Japanese avoided the
Manilla Bay Forts like the plague until they could attack overland. Ditto Singapore. Operation Olympic was aimed at the Kwanto
Plain and Tokyo..., but you don't see any plans to try to enter Tokyo Bay because it was protected by heavy Coast Artillery
Defense works.

True Coast Defense Artillery is a system. Spotters, plotters, tide; range, and atmospheric effects tables; minefields, searchlights,
and Guns. Within there "sphere of influence", they could almost land a shell on a dime and give you 9 cents change. The more
"mobile" CD units (Like those attached to a Marine "Defense Battalion" had the right equipment and training to be pretty effec-
tive once emplaced and "ranged in". Regular "field artillery" wasn't trained to engage ships, and lacked the equipment to do so
with much accuracy if the ships were moving. What is really needed in the came is a classification system that differentiates
between Pre-war fixed Coast Defense installations (to be avoided unless you like losing ships), "mobile" Coast Defense Artillery
units (need several days to set-up and emplace, then about 65% as effective as the "fixed" defenses), and just plain old artillery
(which is possibly 20-25% as effective on a good day). Having a gun on a coast does not make it Coast Defense Artillery except
in the broadest sense.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 14

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 7:21:25 PM

HawaiiFive-O

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Im not complaining about the CD effectiveness at all. I just wish I could get some kind of animation or pop-up screen when I pass through a hex containing CD's telling me my ships are being fired on and sunk. Unless you are invading or attacking you dont know they have been fired upon. Its wierd just seeing messages saying your ships are sinking.

I might be confused about this, but it seems to me that there is a *noise* (like a thumping) that the game makes when there's a bombardment.

I hear this noise whenever the CD guns fire, but no screen pops up.

In addition, at the end of the turn, the combat reports will often show naval bombardments/CD gunfire that never popped up a CR screen during turn resolution. Again, I've found that the number of *thumps* matches the total count of bombards.

So, since the game already offers some feedback when this happens, maybe we can get a visual in addition to the audio?

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 15

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/9/2004 9:11:30 PM

glen55

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This is quite disappointing to see this thread. I purchased UV when it was new, familiarized myself with the rules, then started my first game as the Americans. I was having a great old time, micro-managing the heck out of everything. I took my time preparing the invasion of Guadalcanal and went in at about the historical time. I left my task force at Lunga for about 3 days, and it seemed as if everything was going peachy-keen: no surface task forces came in to pull the Savo Island trick; my carriers were in the proper spot 50 miles east of Guadalcanal providing CAP so Betty attacks did minimal damage. All of a sudden ships started sinking. I examined my invasion task force and it was beaten to shreds, scarcely a single ship in the whole group was at 50% or higher.

I came on the forum and complained bitterly about never having been given a clue that this was happening, and it is really disappointing to see this "feature" appear in WITP.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 16

RE: We need a display when coastal guns attack our ship... - 7/12/2004 3:06:06 AM

Tanaka

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Even something like when you see the little messages at the bottom of the screen when aircraft attack subs might work.

Manila CD Guns attacking CA Mogami
Manila CD Guns attacking CL Jintsu
CL Jintsu is hit!!!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 7/11/2004 8:07:40 PM >

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