RE: Things I do not like about 8.2

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RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 4:13:36 AM

BulletMagnet

Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline

Im sorry Noone is able to reproduce the results. I play a long camp once a month. I admit I play extremely agressive against the AI. The difference in 8.2 is the amount of brew ups I see against the poles. I wouldnt mind seeing tracks and other damage shots. But come on, how hard it must be to brew up a Pz Ivc barreling straight at you from 400 meters through smoke no less!!!! My entire assault comes to a crawl in open terrain all because of some atr's. The computer also does some other stupid crap now it takes every side shot it possibly can even if it crisscrosses the map. It ignores units right in front. In table top wargaming its called "Cheesing" in spwaw its called BS. I dont want anyone to think I hate the game or whatnot my intenton is just to show an observation, nothing personal against anyone. I think I am going to reduce the pen rates to 7.1

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Post #: 31

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 6:15:34 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

The AI choices were beefed up for several nations, so if you guys are wailing and gnashing teeth about the Poles, then we did our job.

You wanted a challenge against the AI, and now we gave it to you.

The same goes for other nations--the Japanese have tank-killer units that give me fits in close terrain. What we've done is essentially put Steel Panthers in its place. The proper title of this game now should simply be: "The World at War 1930-1949. "

I love it, but it also makes me furious and frustrated at times. Isn't this what a great wargame should do?

What we did is to accent the importance of combined arms--the proper application of this is what won battles in WWII. Steel Panthers is just an advanced example of the rock-scissors-paper approach. This is how it worked in real life, so you guys should have to deal with it, too.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/9/2004 11:29:18 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 4:57:48 PM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

As for the sharpshooting Polish Infantry ATR teams, it has been suggested that their FC be reduced to 2. I would concur with this, so you guys can use the unit editor and make the changes.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/10/2004 9:58:00 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 6:14:31 PM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

Okay, after reading the complaints concerning the Polish ATR�s FC of three setting, I privately asked three volunteers to conduct test on this issue. The first set of test have been completed and I�ll list the results as follows:

Test used the Campaign Generator set to begin September 1939 and end September 1939 and consist of 5 battles. True Troop cost / rarity set to on, reduced and limited ammo setting was used. Reduced squads set to � Off. The first rounds of test were played from the German side verses the AI Polish side.

Test pending regarding playing with True Troop cost / rarity set to: Off. I need some more volunteers for this.

PBEM test are pending and feel free to volunteer for this. Just let me know and send me an email at bryanm@matrixgames.

Also, test from the Polish side verse the computer AI German side needs testing. If you like to volunteer for this, send me an email.

Here are the results of the first round of test:

German units used were a combined arms team consisting 1939 armor, Infantry, and mortars selected per likes of testers. True Troop cost / rarity set to on. On average, using Fred�s WAW editor to count, AI selected approximately 6 to 9 ATR�s per game or none at all.

The initial findings were that the German�s ran rough shod over the Polish forces and the ATR�s had no detrimental impact on game play. Instead, the ATR�s only fired long range about 45 percent of the time. Most damage caused by ATR�s was against Armored cars and PZ I�s. Majority of the crews survived when hit from 12 to 5 hexes. Polish ATR Fire from ranges of zero to three hexes proved most deadly. Polish ATR fire out to Four to five hex range produced varied results regarding losses. Majority of Tank loses from Polish ATR fire, PZ II, Cech Tanks, and PZ IIIe�s were in the Zero to 4 hex ranges, unless Poles had height advantages.

Approximate 45 percent of the ATR�s failed to Op fire at a two hex range and were easily destroyed after being spotted. When ATR�s did fire, units in over watch positions could fire �Z� key area fire and suppress the ATR teams, exposing them. Infantry units and scouts spotted ATR�s and used suppressing fire on these. Polish ATR teams proved brittle and can not take much suppression before routing.

ATR�s and Polish units fire OP fire at max range, thus exposing positions and easily neutralized. This AI fire, at max range is in the mechanics of the game.

These are results from the Human as German side one verses the Compter AI. For test to be complete, I still need volunteers to test from the Polish side verse the AI and any PBEM. I still need test result�s for True Troop cost / rarity set to off to be final.

Just from these initial tests, it appears the FC setting of three has no negative empirical effect on game but this is not the final analysis as test are not complete.

Please note, test volunteers wish to remain anonymous due a few negative attitudes displayed on forums.

If you like to join this test, email me at bryanm@matrixgames for more detials.

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 34

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/10/2004 8:40:03 PM

BulletMagnet

Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline

After doing some of my own testing and confering with Flashfire I have concluded that the problem is not with the FC of three.(although it compounds the issue) The problem exists with the over- inflated apcr pen. I hope the the intent of your own testing is not to be an "azz" or to make me look like one.You have already admitted to fudging the rating ahistorical to help the poles out, and you have in the past been accused of fudging other numbers for play balance. Its all just a game. But if you made a mistake please just admit and say "yeah maybe i shouldnt have cranked it up so high"

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Post #: 35

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/11/2004 2:54:07 AM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

After doing some of my own testing and confering with Flashfire I have concluded that the problem is not with the FC of three.(although it compounds the issue) The problem exists with the over- inflated apcr pen. I hope the the intent of your own testing is not to be an "azz" or to make me look like one.You have already admitted to fudging the rating ahistorical to help the poles out, and you have in the past been accused of fudging other numbers for play balance. Its all just a game. But if you made a mistake please just admit and say "yeah maybe i shouldnt have cranked it up so high"

BulletMagnet - no intent on making anyone look like a azz. This needs an honest open evaluation before doing anything else. I am curious about the ATR and what it is doing in the game and nothing else.

The test on this is by no means conclusive and still more data needs to be collected. So far, the three reports I received state that the FC of three has no bearing making the game ahistortical but this only the first round of reports. More is needed - much more!

Things noticed by testers, so far, is that the AI likes to fire at max range setttings. This seems to be the case in all human vs spwaw AI play.

As for APCR rounds - this unit should not have any - only AP. It does have APCR pen rate but should have no ammo in unit apcr slot. The apcr was to be used as a scenario designer option and for many older spwaw scenarios that used apcr for this weapon. Many older scenarios do use apcr for this weapon and it would give it more of a kick. Reducing it would be the correct thing to do. Deleting apcr would harm older scenario work.

This is the only unit in entire oobs with the FC increase. It was done to help the 1939 era AI Polish force to be more of a challenge and make this era more realistic than what it was before. We will all see what the results of testing are before making final judgements concerning historical verse ahistorical. All I ask is a fair honest testing of this and see what the results are and then go from there: not to make anyone look like an azz. That is not my style.

Please keep your comments coming in and if you like - join on in the testing! You are very welcome to join in

Question: what were the settings used for your game? This would help sort things out too

You can send email to bryanm@matrixgames.com for privacy.

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to BulletMagnet)

Post #: 36

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/11/2004 3:42:31 AM

STEELER13

Posts: 141
Joined: 6/7/2003
From: PHILADELPHIA
Status: offline

Yo Bryan,
First off, thanks to you and the team for the hard work put into updating the game.
Secondly, I do think that with the advent of ModSwapper, many of the OOB disagreements could be resolved by people who want to adjust and add much like PanzerLeo has done with the H2H. As I understand it, modswapper, allows for easy swapping of Modified OOB's.
BUT...what is missing and would make 8.2 complete in my opinion(at least enough so I can send out cd's to people who can't download 8.2 and have made donations) are the following:
1. Missing scenario dat and text files as pointed out by others.
2. Directions on using MODSWAPPER! Also, if I download H2H as is now, will it immediately work with Modswapper or do I need to follow a different procedure?
3. The 8.2 change text refers to a 3 MB document with complete changes.
4. The change file also refers to several of the new units missing LBM files which are "to be added later". Do you have an ETA on these?
5. David Heath mentioned that Civil War Mod and H2H would be posted on a Matrix website or at least given a link from Matrix.

That is what I would like to have on any CD I send out.
Also, just a quibble, as I mean no disrespect, but I can see why some people are dismayed by something you posted earlier. You admitted that the Polish ATR was adjusted for gameplay. I don't have a problem with that and actually I can see when sometimes there is a need to allow for gaming to take precedence over absolute historical accuracy. In fact, most people wouldn't want to play a game where 99% of the time you have no action, but in reality that would be historical accuracy, right?
BUT...I scoured the 8.2 change pdf and I didn't see mention of this adjustment or anything like this. Were there any other units that were similarly "touched up"? I ask because now you have me curious and because as a scenario designer I am going to wonder why certain outcomes are different than expected so I would certainly appreciate the information and the chance to adjust myself if I know something is "historically off".
Usually I stay out of OOB discussions and respect your changes without question. But, with Modswapper, now people can look at where you replaced historical accuracy to see if that really did do the trick. Why the ATR? Why not the Polish experience levels?Or another weapon entirely? Modswapper allows people to try their hands at it.
Just my own personal observations and requests. I state again I mean no disrespect at all, I completely respect the work you and your team have done. With modswapper I think that in a way Matrix can stop worrying about updating OOB's to meet everyone's needs, and instead allow those who disagree to come up with their own variations. Afterall, Matrix doesn't make SPWAW scenarios, aside from what is included in basic install and on the MC's---and as I understand it, there will be no more MC's in the near future if ever.
Thank you again.
Thank you!
Thank you!

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STEELER

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Post #: 37

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/11/2004 8:08:13 AM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEELER13

Yo Bryan,
First off, thanks to you and the team for the hard work put into updating the game.
Secondly, I do think that with the advent of ModSwapper, many of the OOB disagreements could be resolved by people who want to adjust and add much like PanzerLeo has done with the H2H. As I understand it, modswapper, allows for easy swapping of Modified OOB's.
BUT...what is missing and would make 8.2 complete in my opinion(at least enough so I can send out cd's to people who can't download 8.2 and have made donations) are the following:
1. Missing scenario dat and text files as pointed out by others.
2. Directions on using MODSWAPPER! Also, if I download H2H as is now, will it immediately work with Modswapper or do I need to follow a different procedure?
3. The 8.2 change text refers to a 3 MB document with complete changes.
4. The change file also refers to several of the new units missing LBM files which are "to be added later". Do you have an ETA on these?
5. David Heath mentioned that Civil War Mod and H2H would be posted on a Matrix website or at least given a link from Matrix.

That is what I would like to have on any CD I send out.
Also, just a quibble, as I mean no disrespect, but I can see why some people are dismayed by something you posted earlier. You admitted that the Polish ATR was adjusted for gameplay. I don't have a problem with that and actually I can see when sometimes there is a need to allow for gaming to take precedence over absolute historical accuracy. In fact, most people wouldn't want to play a game where 99% of the time you have no action, but in reality that would be historical accuracy, right?
BUT...I scoured the 8.2 change pdf and I didn't see mention of this adjustment or anything like this. Were there any other units that were similarly "touched up"? I ask because now you have me curious and because as a scenario designer I am going to wonder why certain outcomes are different than expected so I would certainly appreciate the information and the chance to adjust myself if I know something is "historically off".
Usually I stay out of OOB discussions and respect your changes without question. But, with Modswapper, now people can look at where you replaced historical accuracy to see if that really did do the trick. Why the ATR? Why not the Polish experience levels?Or another weapon entirely? Modswapper allows people to try their hands at it.
Just my own personal observations and requests. I state again I mean no disrespect at all, I completely respect the work you and your team have done. With modswapper I think that in a way Matrix can stop worrying about updating OOB's to meet everyone's needs, and instead allow those who disagree to come up with their own variations. Afterall, Matrix doesn't make SPWAW scenarios, aside from what is included in basic install and on the MC's---and as I understand it, there will be no more MC's in the near future if ever.
Thank you again.
Thank you!
Thank you!

No other units were touched up in oobs to help a Nations side in the same manner that was used in that Polish ATR.

It does have an APCR pen rate but the unit should have no default APCR ammo in it. This was for scenario designers who want to add this ammo in to portray Heroic deeds in a scenario.

As soon as we have what is known as the "LUMF" excel file ready - we'll post it. This has all the info on it in detail on what was done in OOBs. This maybe what you are looking for.

As for experience rate increase - this in located inside the Mech.exe and left at the 7.1 levels.

_____________________________

MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to STEELER13)

Post #: 38

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/11/2004 8:37:09 AM

Kevin E. Duguay

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline

If the testing on the Polish ATR is correct then maybe its not powerful enough. Pens of 30+ mm at 300 yards, thats 6 hexes in the game. But the weapon only does well against a early modle Pz III at 4 hexes or less? What about spalling? If the crew were injured or incapcitated in some way, would that also not be a kill? I think maybe this is a non issue.

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KED

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Post #: 39

RE: Things I do not like about 8.2 - 7/11/2004 7:05:35 PM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay

If the testing on the Polish ATR is correct then maybe its not powerful enough. Pens of 30+ mm at 300 yards, thats 6 hexes in the game. But the weapon only does well against a early modle Pz III at 4 hexes or less? What about spalling? If the crew were injured or incapcitated in some way, would that also not be a kill? I think maybe this is a non issue.

True, but Bullet Magnet did locate an error and it has to do with Polish 1939 AI Unit selection for Battle and campaign games.

A fix to the AI selection will correct things so that the AI will select less Polish Armour and select a better Polish AI Assault force mix but this fix will work best when True Troop/Rarity is set to ON. I hope to have this completed after more testing is completed.

As for the ATR - I'll experiment with reducing pen rate to 30 for both AP and APCR.

Book sources for ATR were from Hogg's and Weeks - Military Small Arms of the World - 1977. Also - Anti Tank Weapons - by Chamberlain, Gardner, Macdonald, and Janes - 1974.

This weapon had a Pen rate of about 20 - 25mm at 300 Yards - sources vary as usual. Some sources had this rated at 38 to 32mm at 0 to 40 meters with its special ammo when used. I set it to the high end and lowering it should get things back in line. More testing will be needed to confrim if this works.

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to Kevin E. Duguay)

Post #: 40

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