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Det Packs & Flamethrowers - 6/4/2000 11:37:00 AM

Aktion T4

Posts: 12
Joined: 6/4/2000
From: Naugatuck CT, USA
Status: offline

Hello all, My first time to this forum! I've been an avid wargamer for the last 15 years at least. The first PC war game I remember playing was "Empire". Even before that, I was playing a version of "Empire" that was released in an old Atari magazine that, in order to play the game, you had to type in a few pages of source code in Atari Basic! Those were the good 'ol days. Since then, wargaming has progressed into a science almost and it is amazing to see wargaming grow up into a bad-ass addiction! Ok..enough of that and on to make my point about flamethrowers and det-packs. After playing a sufficient amount of scenarios playing only the US Army or USMC, I've seen a few things that are disheartening. At close range, flamethrowers and det-packs are just not devastating enough to even bother using. I've witnessed higher kill rates with M1's and BAR's at 1 hex range than I have with a red-hot finger of fire blazing them krauts and nips. After seeing as many war documentaries on TV and in my WW2 history classes in college, the after effects of flame throwers on entrenched infantry was without a doubt the most effective way to clean house. Is there a problem in the code somewhere that is nerfing the effectiveness of close combat specific weapons like det-packs and flamethrowers? I don't know if any one else has experienced the same problem but it is a little annoying to see something meant for sheer in-your-face destruction wither out like a candle in a gale. Comments anyone? Bueller? Aktion T4

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- 6/4/2000 6:42:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Welcome Aktion! Glad to have you join us. You have a good point. Mike Wood (programmer) and other top gaming staff read all these posts. They'll be reading this one too. I like your idea of increased power for FTs. Demos, det packs and explosive charges work pretty good, but I would like to see them be more effective against fortifications. Feel free to comment on the game. That is the purpose of this forum...agree-disagree. We'd like to know. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 6/4/2000 10:36:00 PM

Drake666

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline

I think they got to increase the power of the Sturmtiger to. A weapon that could take out a building in one shot should be albill to kill more then 1 man in a infantry platoon in one shot.

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- 6/5/2000 2:42:00 AM

Desert Fox

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline

I have seen some very mixed results with flamethrowers and satchel charges myself. In one instance, USA vs Japan in a heavy jungle area, my engineers shot burst after burst of flame and tossed satchel after satchel of charges, with negligeble casualties to jap infantry in jungle and jungle/rough hexes. This must have gone on for 15 turns or so, with the flamethrowers and satchel charges rarely, if ever, causing casualties to the 15 man japanese squads. The garands and BARs, as well as my armor were the only things holding the line. Now, granted, my boys were average or green at best, and the terrain was pretty tough, but after 20 flame bursts and 20 satchel charges, I would expect some japanese casualties, if nothing more than they all run home with their tail between their legs. In the same vein, I think terrain should be destroyable. After all the demolition work I did in that jungle, there should be no jungle. I took slash and burn to a new level that day. On the other side of the coin, I like using flame tanks as the germans, specifically the panzer 2 flame tanks for their double flamethrowers. In the desert terrain of North Africa, these proved to be invaluable in making entrenched desert rats get up and go, causing casualties no matter what hit percentage I had. They are completely unstoppable if the enemy has no anti tank capability. Simply point and flame, then advance. Gotta keep an ammo truck in the area though, otherwise the rampage ends real quick. Of course, desert terrain leaves little actual places to hide, but it seems to me that flamethrowers should always be causing casualties just by handing out intense fear to all the troops in that hex. How many troops really stuck around to fight when they were being shot at with flamethrowers and satchel charges, even if they were highly trained and experienced troops?

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- 6/5/2000 3:04:00 AM

Warhorse

Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline

Hello all, how timely this subject is, I think this is pertinent. Saturday I went to the Reading Airshow-WW2 weekend in Pennsylvania where I live. They had among restored vehicles and lots of aircraft, something unseen here before, and probably by most people in the world, except for TV that is, a FLAMETHROWER demo!!! They fired off both the infantry portable, and the vehicle mounted versions. I can say, standing at about 75 feet away, the heat was intense from one burst, a sustained tongue from either was serious, they aimed them into the air at about 30 degrees, and still the grass torched from the radiant heat!!! I think they should be beefed up some, although it is a 50 meter area, 164 feet, some more umph would be in order. I took pictures, I'll post them when developed!! What a rush!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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- 6/5/2000 3:54:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

I have discovered a bug which may be at the root of some of the problems with "big effect" weapons...stay tuned...

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- 6/5/2000 6:02:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

I did try some canned assaults of FT/DC vs a variety of forts and found teh light foirts were seeing 70+ % assault chances and if you got in the same hex with the big ones they were 30+% Are you guys assaulting the forts or just area firing? Against the "big forts (with 4 and 5 in equivilent wall, you have to get into the hex with them to have a good chance. In general they were doing 2-3 casualties per shot, pretty much whoever is in there path. Demos maybe one less. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 06-04-2000).]

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- 6/5/2000 10:49:00 PM

Panther

Posts: 201
Joined: 4/19/2000
From: Dover,NH,USA
Status: offline

I have noticed the same thing that flame throwers are not as powerful as I think they should be. Although I do have a question on the effect a flame thrower would have on a bunker if the assult happens from the rear of the bunker. It is a direct weapon that needed an opening in the concrete to function best. Now if you encounter a bunker made of combustable material the effects should be a lot greater. Just start the fire and wait. I believe the flame throwers in some cases have range of two. It is possible to have the first hex catch fire as well when attacking the second hex. Setchel charges should be more effective againts bunkers in general They have a tendency to remove stuff frorce fully like blowing up doors. Last thing When assulting bunkers with units that have charges could they use several of them to increase their chances of destroying a target hex. For example if engineers assulted a Bunker or any hex they would use several charges to do the maximum amount of damage instead of just one at a time.

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Post #: 8

- 6/6/2000 12:24:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Panther: ... It is a direct weapon that needed an opening in the concrete to function best.

I can't see the flame having any effect if it just burns on the outside of a bunker. Several inches of concrete are going to insulate against the burning fuel very well. Then again if it drips in through ventilation pipes, etc. good by bunker.

quote:

Now if you encounter a bunker made of combustable material the effects should be a lot greater. Just start the fire and wait.

Wait for how long for earthen covered green logs to catch on fire? They probably won't.

quote:

Setchel charges should be more effective againts bunkers in general They have a tendency to remove stuff frorce fully like blowing up doors.

If placed against a door and tamped with dirt, yes, the door is coming off very quickly. However if the charge is just flung at the bunker, it might not even scratch the paint/bark. Clearly if engineers get onto a bunker/etc. and have a turn or two there, the bunker is lost. I suppose it would be more realistic to increase the chances to nearly 100% (but not 100% as fuses, etc. don't always work) for units on top of a bunker. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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- 6/6/2000 6:24:00 AM

Alastair Anderson

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Taunton, Somerset, UK
Status: offline

On the subject of the more lethal infantry weapons did I read a post a while back about molotovs?? It does not appear that my poor Russian grendiers have much more than a hand grenade against advancing German armour, but each squad has a couple of molotovs. ARe they working?? Flamethrowers should indeed have a big effect. I remember being frequently disappointed by infantry carried flamethrowers gainst infantry targets in sp3. Tank mounted throwers seemd more effective, at least in causing defending squads to scarper pretty damn quick. Beef 'em up if they are not causing casualties!! Cheers Al

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- 6/6/2000 10:31:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline

quote:

I did try some canned assaults of FT/DC vs a variety of forts and found teh light foirts were seeing 70+ % assault chances and if you got in the same hex with the big ones they were 30+% Are you guys assaulting the forts or just area firing? Against the "big forts (with 4 and 5 in equivilent wall, you have to get into the hex with them to have a good chance.

I've been assaulting from adjacent hexes...under the assumption that getting in the same hex will get my butt shot off! 'Cause if my assault fails, I'm likely to not have MPs to move away. Not a valid assumption? Could you explain "4 &5 in equivalant wall"? Vas is los? I've found engineers with FTs do have nice assault numbers, but regular infantry with the same weapons don't get those kinds of numbers. Infantry w/satchel charges or TNT especially tend to have single digit assault figures (assuming they even use them in the assault...not always a valid assumption).

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- 6/6/2000 12:08:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Sorry I meant "walls the equivalent of 4 or 5 inches thick" ie those Maginot line ones:-) Sorry

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- 6/6/2000 8:14:00 PM

Panther

Posts: 201
Joined: 4/19/2000
From: Dover,NH,USA
Status: offline

I also heard and read someplace that when a flamethrower was hit it was highly explosive could that be somehow incorporated into spwaw. If you fire at units having volotile weapons ie flame throwers there should be a small chance that one of these weaons gets hit and explodes causing damage to your own squad and weapon gets negated zero shots. Kind of like an ammo truck. Thanks Larry for the great insight on charges and flame throwers. I guess the conclusion that can be drawn from this is that an assault with a flamethrower from the front of the bunker should be lot more lethal that from the rear where there is not major openings. As for setchel charges I would have assumed that they would also represent other explosive devices that an Engeneering unit could use when assaulting a bunker due to the scale of the game. Last thing I guess every body envisions earthen bunkers diferently. I for the most part consider it to be a hasty fortification that would have some foliage that covered it as well hence catching on fire more easily. Although your description "Wait for how long for earthen covered green logs to catch fire" is also a good description. Thanks again Larry. Yours truly Panther

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Post #: 13