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Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 1:35:25 AM   
Dolmon

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Fort Worth, TX
Status: offline 		Does the Japanese Pilot pool rates ever increase?


If there are no pilots in the pool are inferior pilots pulled or are none "available"?


The rates of 20/10 pilots per month? seems low to the amount of aircraft produced. Am I just looking at this wrong?

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 1:36:58 AM   
kev_uk

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 6/5/2004
From: South Wales, UK
Status: offline 		IJN Pilots went through a rigorous training program where many failed, not sure on the historical replacement figure, but seems good enough.

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(in reply to Dolmon)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 1:39:55 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kev_uk

IJN Pilots went through a rigorous training program where many failed, not sure on the historical replacement figure, but seems good enough.


It is only enough if (and hopefully WHEN) they fix the problem that airgroups with more planes than pilots will steal pilots from the pool even with replacements turned off... Turning on replacements only seem to effect aircraft, not pilots.

Xargun

(in reply to kev_uk)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 1:48:48 AM   
kev_uk

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 6/5/2004
From: South Wales, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: kev_uk

IJN Pilots went through a rigorous training program where many failed, not sure on the historical replacement figure, but seems good enough.


It is only enough if (and hopefully WHEN) they fix the problem that airgroups with more planes than pilots will steal pilots from the pool even with replacements turned off... Turning on replacements only seem to effect aircraft, not pilots.

Xargun


Thats interesting. Maybe they should have another option to accept replacement pilots on the screen as well, so you can prioritise where you want your pilots to go.

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Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 2:02:36 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kev_uk

Thats interesting. Maybe they should have another option to accept replacement pilots on the screen as well, so you can prioritise where you want your pilots to go.


Yep. Thats how the KB in my PBEM game has such crappy pilots in it.. By the time the KB came home for replacements, the IJN pool was at like 30 pilots (starts with 100).

Xargun

(in reply to kev_uk)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 2:36:32 AM   
incbob


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/23/2004
From: Columbia, Missouri
Status: offline 		Here is a question.

Historically speaking dkid the KB get preference when it chose pilots or did it just have to get what it could after the Naval LBA got its choice? How did the Japanese do this?

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 2:37:07 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Do note that (proividing the manual is correct) if there is not enough trained pilots available and more are needed for an air unit, poorly pilots will be provided (as long as aircraft are also available Id guess).

These poorly trained replacement pilots will enter the game with roughly 1/2 the experience of that of the nationality's replacement pilots.

Dawg

(in reply to Dolmon)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 3:05:00 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

Here is a question.

Historically speaking dkid the KB get preference when it chose pilots or did it just have to get what it could after the Naval LBA got its choice? How did the Japanese do this?


From what I understand the IJN air units only took the top pilots.. I would only assume that CV air wings got the top pick of pilots.. Then the land bases ones - fighters and bombers.. But even little recon groups steal the good pilots away.. I have several Recon groups with experience in the 80s due to this.

Xargun

(in reply to incbob)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 6:08:02 PM   
Dolmon

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Fort Worth, TX
Status: offline 		Maybe what Japan needs is a switch on an airgroup that says draw trained pilots or draw untrained pilots.

The other option would be the ability to transfer elite pilots to specific units such as carrier duty.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 6:13:22 PM   
foliveti


Posts: 371
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline 		Will the airgroups draw replacement pilots if they are in stand down mode. That may be a way of dealing with the air groups that have more planes than pilots at the beginning. I think a better solution would be if the air groups matched up number of planes and pilots at oppenning shot of scenario.

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Frank

(in reply to Dolmon)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 6:16:58 PM   
JohnK

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolmon

The rates of 20/10 pilots per month? seems low to the amount of aircraft produced. Am I just looking at this wrong?

Thanks



It is low compared to the amount of aircraft produced. Because it was :-)

The IJN BEGAN the war without enough pilots to fly all their existing aircraft.

And their pilot training program produced 100 pilots/year.

Pearl Harbor wiped out 1/3rd of a yearly pilot class alone.

(in reply to Dolmon)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 6:23:23 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		This is also a problem on the US side too as many squadrons aren;t getting replacements no matter where they are!

(in reply to JohnK)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 6:44:15 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		That is untrue JohnK; The Japanese Navy undertook to fix their pilot program in 1940.
They graduated well over 1000 pilots and 1500 aircrew in '42. It still was not enough but it was not 100!

Also, the numbers in the game for pilot training through the years is just silly. The Japanese did not begin to seriously cut hours till mid-late '43.
Till then they were getting the same training that they had been receiving in January '41. Late war Japanese training was awfull but the earlier was not so bad.

Mike

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 7:02:17 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Actually, the pool should be ZERO pilots. There were no spares.

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 8:36:29 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

That is untrue JohnK; The Japanese Navy undertook to fix their pilot program in 1940.
They graduated well over 1000 pilots and 1500 aircrew in '42. It still was not enough but it was not 100!

Also, the numbers in the game for pilot training through the years is just silly. The Japanese did not begin to seriously cut hours till mid-late '43.
Till then they were getting the same training that they had been receiving in January '41. Late war Japanese training was awfull but the earlier was not so bad.

Mike


Brady mentioned the number of pilots Japan trained duringthe war years. It was many times what you will get out of the game. We are just resigned to train our pilots manually. It is more micromanagement for Japan but it is possible.

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 8:46:50 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		There seem to be differences of opinion regarding what the facts were about Japanese training programs for IJN carrier pilots. I've also seen the 100 pilot per year in Dunnigan's Book. In it he claims that the Japanese never really fix this issue, and disputes the 1000 pilots in 1942 (unless perhaps that includes army and navy?). Based on their response to loss of planes and pilots at Coral Sea, I'd be inclined to belive they really could not replace pilots at this time.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 8:56:26 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Sakai however alludes to the decrease in training, that allowed a faster throughput of pilots, albeit poorly trained ones.

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(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 9:00:03 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Japan starts the game with abut 2,700 skilled pilots.

read this next part carefully:

(a) Each air group entering play comes WITH trained pilots.

(b) The pilot pool ONLY gets used for replacement pilots for KIA's

Now that you understand the two separate sources for pilots, rethink your numbers.

The pool comments means that Japan has trained skilled pilots sitting there drinking saki waiting for others to die so they can get a plane???

Planes ALWAYS outnumbered pilots.

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 9:29:50 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

There seem to be differences of opinion regarding what the facts were about Japanese training programs for IJN carrier pilots. I've also seen the 100 pilot per year in Dunnigan's Book. In it he claims that the Japanese never really fix this issue, and disputes the 1000 pilots in 1942 (unless perhaps that includes army and navy?). Based on their response to loss of planes and pilots at Coral Sea, I'd be inclined to belive they really could not replace pilots at this time.





it depends on what one defines as "trained" and opinions do vary. According to some pilots (both japanese & USN) signs of green or incompletely trained IJN pilots was evidenced as early as Eastern Solomons.

Frag was technically correct, least according to Pettie (Sunburst), who stated that even at war's start, the Japanese navy did not have enough qualified pilots to fill out her complete muster of planes (land + carrier) Obviously KB got first pick on the best and the concentration was greatest there.

the only way to prevent airgroups from getting green/incompletely trained pilots is to set the frontline units to no replacements and instead, rotate airgroups that are depleated, fill them out and set aside a period of time for "advanced training" to bring the newbies up to 50-60+ status.

Otherwise you get the greenhorns dumped straight into the frontline units. (which japan appeared to have done historically to a degree) and face the same situation...a mix of battle hardened vets and greenies. the latter who will make the mistakes witnessed by both sides.

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Post #: 19
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 10:03:23 PM   
MarioF

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		I have a modded scenario starting with 1500 pilots in the pool (Japan), with 150 new ones arriving per month. My ggoups that have lots of A/C but short pilots don't seem to recieve them quickly enough.

eg. newly formed group arrives 6 A6M2 zero out of 27 Max.
-next turn I recieve 21 A6M zero planes damaged to bring up strength.
- Next couple of turns, planes get fixed slowly.
- however pilots are not coming fast enough, even though I have
more ready A/C than Pilots. (1500 or so in Pilot Pool)

Possible bug??????

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 10:06:45 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Nope, planes arrive damaged. Pilots are only drawn once the planes are repaired.

You have to be kidding about the number of pilots

Thats about the same as giving the Allies the A-Bomb in '41

(in reply to MarioF)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/14/2004 10:34:33 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarioF

I have a modded scenario starting with 1500 pilots in the pool (Japan), with 150 new ones arriving per month. My ggoups that have lots of A/C but short pilots don't seem to recieve them quickly enough.

eg. newly formed group arrives 6 A6M2 zero out of 27 Max.
-next turn I recieve 21 A6M zero planes damaged to bring up strength.
- Next couple of turns, planes get fixed slowly.
- however pilots are not coming fast enough, even though I have
more ready A/C than Pilots. (1500 or so in Pilot Pool)

Possible bug??????


ROFL, I didnt know Japan had an Air National Guard. LOL All those drunk airline pilots should make great kamikazes.

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(in reply to MarioF)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 1:21:49 AM   
MarioF

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Nope, planes arrive damaged. Pilots are only drawn once the planes are repaired.

You have to be kidding about the number of pilots

Thats about the same as giving the Allies the A-Bomb in '41


I like playing as Japan. This is a "what if" scenario I am working on - assuming Japan dramatically increases their pilot training early in the war.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 1:24:32 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I like playing as Japan. This is a "what if" scenario I am working on - assuming Japan dramatically increases their pilot training early in the war.


I figured that out. I hope you are at least playing at Very Hard levels with *that* kind of perk.

(in reply to MarioF)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 1:45:18 AM   
JohnK

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline 		In all seriousness, a case can be made for a "non-stupid pilot training policy" switch similar to the "sub doctrine" switch for Japan.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 25
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 2:00:51 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

In all seriousness, a case can be made for a "non-stupid pilot training policy" switch similar to the "sub doctrine" switch for Japan.


Yes it can be made, BUT not that *those* kinds of levels.

(in reply to JohnK)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 7:33:45 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		Are you guys incinuating that Japanese pilots would be pulled back to (fill in the blank) after a tour of duty? You've gotta be kidding. Need I mention that the US was the ONLY nation to ever do that on any scale? Have you heard of Russian of German pilots having a tour of duty?

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"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 7:35:58 AM   
Bandkanon

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/25/2001
From: Hengchun, Taiwan
Status: offline 		Many IJA and IJN aces and veteran pilots were pulled off the frontlines to become instructors. Not many made it that far but Japan did try to save veterans from being attrition killed. Although that ddn't much matter after while when the Allies started hitting the Home Islands.

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 7:36:53 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		According to Rudel, Hitler tried at least twice to bring him home to train the next generation of bomber pilots but Rudel pleaded to keep fighting and won him over.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 7/15/2004 5:37:10 AM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Japanese Pilot Pool - 7/15/2004 7:41:46 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

According to Rudel, Hitler tried at least twice to bring him home to train the next generation of bomber pilots but Rudel pleaded to keep fighting and won him over.


It stands to reason that someone who knows how to fly properly will be brought back to teach those who dont. I was commenting on the scale, as in having a miccion cut-off point...only the US. And as long as we're on the subject, not one of the Abbeville Boys got transferred back. Only Galland had any sort of a breather, and he was trying to build a jet squadron.

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"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 30
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