RE: Japan=Nukes?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Japan=Nukes?

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RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 8:55:29 PM

Guderon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

The US took the easy way out, but I think that weopons of mass dustruction should be used only as a last resort if you losing badly in a war, not to be used if you winning. I heard saddam hussian used chemicals weopons because he was outnumbered 5 to 1 when he was fighting Iran and shia rebels in his country that allied with Iran, some would say he done a good job because he saved the sunni minority but we consider him a bad guy.

I didn't say (or intentionally imply) that we were justified in dropping the A-bombs on Japan. Like I said, this will be debated endlessly. My point is that this decision needs to be viewed in the proper historical context. When people say or imply that we were unreservedly 'bad' for nuking Japan, I only ask that they keep in mind that the only reason we were the only country to nuke anyone in WWII was that we were the only country that *had* nukes then. There was no concern about nuclear retaliation at that time. If Japan or Germany had them, they certainly would have used them. And the only reason that the Axis didn't employ CBW to any extent (and yes I'm aware that the Japanese used them to some extent in China, but this was primarily to test various compounds because they considered the Chinese 'subhuman' and therefore suitable subjects) was because the Western Allies had *huge* stockpiles of CBW agents themselves and the Axis didn't want to initiate what would have probably escalated into mass use of these agents against civilian (their own included) populations.

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Post #: 31

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 8:56:00 PM

Caltone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hithere

quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

The US took the easy way out, but I think that weopons of mass dustruction should be used only as a last resort if you losing badly in a war, not to be used if you winning. I heard saddam hussian used chemicals weopons because he was outnumbered 5 to 1 when he was fighting Iran and shia rebels in his country that allied with Iran, some would say he done a good job because he saved the sunni minority but we consider him a bad guy.

Nooo...the easy way out would have been to just fight in the Pacific war and let UK and Europe fend for themselves. yes the US did have interest in defeating Hitler but he prob would have been dead in a few years anyway

Even easier, just don't embargo Japan and pull back to the shores. Might have been interesting to see the Rising Sun flying in Peking today and a Swastika on the Arc De Triumph.

You don't use weapons based on whether you're winning or losing. Remember Patton's line? You don't win wars by dieing for your country, you win wars by making the other SOB die for his country. If you've got a weapon that can help you win, you would be a traitor to your people not to use it.

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Post #: 32

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 8:57:39 PM

tiredoftryingnames

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These type of threads are amazing. Ask a yes/no question, start a debate that rages for days. LOL

< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 7/16/2004 1:57:50 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:00:00 PM

Jack Shelak

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Sorry if I pushed any buttons...

I have friends in NYC and was there with the wife 2 weeks before 9/11. NYC is one of the best cities in the world.

re atomic bombs, the U.S. had better resources in men and material and developed the bomb first. Germany was about 2 years behind. If Germany or Japan had developed nukes, we would have had our first nuclear war.

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Post #: 34

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:03:26 PM

Arnir

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Slap me silly for commenting in a thread that I know I shouldn't. <G>

I don't have any sources handy so my comments will be irrelevant, but the 1 million casualty figure has to be taken with a grain of salt. Postwar propaganda blew the Pentagon's estimations out of all proportions when the debate over the bomb began. US estimated 50,000 dead with wounded figures varying greatly. Later the million casualty figure became a million dead figure, etc. Anyway, the point was that contemporary casualty figures were never as high as the postwar debate suggested. All that being said, they were still high. Threads like this tend to throw around DEATH figures of 50,000 like they were spare change.

Uh, general billy, when did war become a game? Only use the weapons if losing sounds so charming but somehow doesn't seem to fit into 1945. Hundreds of thousands dead in the US and tens of millions worldwide. Truman is presented a weapon that can end all the killing in perhaps a matter of days but of course he should have not used it because the US was "winning." I hope you would have gone to the family of every serviceman killed and explained to them personally why their loved one had to die because we were "winning." There is very little similarity between the Second World War and the Iraq situation except at the superficial level.

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Post #: 35

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:10:48 PM

52nd Lowland

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I think the casualty figures came about from the Allied landings as they approached Japan.Obviously the resisitance was stiffening tremendously the closer the Allies got and especially the casualty figures resulting from the Kamikazes.I remember reading somewhere that the Japanese had managed to amass >10000 aircraft that could have been used for Kamikaze attacks on Operation Olympic and Downfall.The Allies had vastly underestimated the number of aircraft the Japanese had hidden so it was just as well these Operations werent needed.

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Post #: 36

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:13:38 PM

ggallagher

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hithere

quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

...even so....the US had to drop a SECOND one. doesn't that say anything???

Ummmm...that our aim was off?

<Sorry, couldn't resist the poor joke.....>

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Post #: 37

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:15:59 PM

general billy

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now just say the US was being invaded by the nearly the whole world and there was no hope in winning, i have a strong feeling that the US would use again Nukes just to survive, look at afganistan, they were using daisy cutter which are like miniture nukes, on guys that was using 1950's weopons

< Message edited by general billy -- 7/16/2004 7:16:14 PM >

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WITP Games
Scen 16 as Allied = Lost
Scen 13 as Jap = Won
Scen 15 as Allied = Won
Scen 16 as Jap = NA
WPO Games
Scen 6 as Allied = Won
Scen 6 as Japs = NA

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Post #: 38

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:16:37 PM

hithere

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the history chan (i watch that alot

) had a show on operation Olympic. one thing that stuck in my head was that the 1st 2 divisions that hit the beach were not even in the war plans after 3 days becouse they would be assumed to be destroyed. My Grandfather was a Sherman Co commander during WW 2. I know HE was glad that the war ended because he was at FT. Lewis getting ready to ship out to the Pacific when the war ended.

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Quote from one of my drill sergeants, "remember, except for the extreme heat, intense radiation, and powerful blast wave, a nuclear explosion is just like any other explosion"

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Post #: 39

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:19:00 PM

hithere

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hithere

the history chan (i watch that alot ) had a show on operation Olympic. one thing that stuck in my head was that the 1st 2 divisions that hit the beach were not even in the war plans after 3 days becouse they would be assumed to be destroyed. My Grandfather was a Sherman Co commander during WW 2. I know HE was glad that the war ended because he was at FT. Lewis getting ready to ship out to the Pacific when the war ended.

acually...it might not have been the History chan...could have been PBS. it has been a little while

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Quote from one of my drill sergeants, "remember, except for the extreme heat, intense radiation, and powerful blast wave, a nuclear explosion is just like any other explosion"

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Post #: 40

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:20:53 PM

Arnir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

now just say the US was being invaded by the nearly the whole world and there was no hope in winning, i have a strong feeling that the US would use again Nukes just to survive, look at afganistan, they were using daisy cutter which are like miniture nukes, on guys that was using 1950's weopons

I would agree with you that the US would use nukes in case of invasion. I don't agree with the daisy chains. I do ask what this has to do with ending the Second World War? It appears (and I could be wrong) that you are more interested in everyone having a balanced playing field. The moral of the story is don't get a much bigger power to go to war with you. Just out of curiosity, how many soldiers have to die before these weapons become acceptable? I think that might be your point.

But I ask again, what does this have to do with ending the Second World War?

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Post #: 41

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:22:04 PM

Becket

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Slap me silly for commenting in a thread that I know I shouldn't. <G>

Yeah, I know, me too.

quote:

the 1 million casualty figure has to be taken with a grain of salt.

That was my point in bringing up the comparison to the relatively light losses in August Storm.

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Post #: 42

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:23:43 PM

Arnir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Becket

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Slap me silly for commenting in a thread that I know I shouldn't. <G>

Yeah, I know, me too.
quote:

the 1 million casualty figure has to be taken with a grain of salt.

That was my point in bringing up the comparison to the relatively light losses in August Storm.

I agree with you on everything, I think. <G> I can't keep the different tangents straight.

Okay, free slappings for everyone!

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Post #: 43

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:27:06 PM

hithere

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I know i should stop also...this has nothing to do with the game so this is my last on this subject.....but i have to say that daisy cutter's were not designed to be anti personnel devices..they were made to explode land mines...which afganistan has a couple from what i hear...i do believe that it was talked able dropping them at the openings of caves to suck the air out but i didn't think that they acually did that. either way....dead is dead....whether someone is shot with a .22 or hit with a daisy cutter ...they don't get anymore dead

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Quote from one of my drill sergeants, "remember, except for the extreme heat, intense radiation, and powerful blast wave, a nuclear explosion is just like any other explosion"

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Post #: 44

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:32:05 PM

general billy

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Is there anyway to stop the US from making the A-Bomb in Witp?

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WITP Games
Scen 16 as Allied = Lost
Scen 13 as Jap = Won
Scen 15 as Allied = Won
Scen 16 as Jap = NA
WPO Games
Scen 6 as Allied = Won
Scen 6 as Japs = NA

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Post #: 45

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:34:30 PM

Arnir

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Do you mean as the Japanese or taking it out of the game altogether?

For the first, the only way I know of is to win the game before the bombs are generated sometime in '45.
For the latter, I would imagine that using the database editor one could take out the US BG that carries the bomb. There is only one unit that can do that in the game.

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Post #: 46

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:35:17 PM

hithere

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i don't think so...but the allies are penalized for using more that 2 from what i understand

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Quote from one of my drill sergeants, "remember, except for the extreme heat, intense radiation, and powerful blast wave, a nuclear explosion is just like any other explosion"

(in reply to general billy)

Post #: 47

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:41:21 PM

tiredoftryingnames

Posts: 1919
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From: Chesapeake, Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

Is there anyway to stop the US from making the A-Bomb in Witp?

Make a new scenario using Save As and set Device Atomic Bomb to Build Rate 0 for your scenario. No Abombs. The mission will still show but be useless. The Bomb Group will just be a normal bomb group.

< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 7/16/2004 2:41:30 PM >

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Post #: 48

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:46:14 PM

andytimtim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

By the way, did the US warn the japs that they were going to nuke a few of their cities if they didnt stop the war??

they did!!! i think the saying was...

..."surrender now, or face utter defeat!" the japananse gave no reply so they 'nuked' them...i could be wrong though, if someone knows the actual speech, please tell us!!

< Message edited by andytimtim -- 7/16/2004 7:46:54 PM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:47:23 PM

general billy

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I didnt mean edit the game, i mean like cut of the supplies to the US to stop it being developed, I mean WitP is a long game, i dont think I will ever see the a-bomb, is there a special animation to go with it, like HOI

< Message edited by general billy -- 7/16/2004 7:52:08 PM >

_____________________________

WITP Games
Scen 16 as Allied = Lost
Scen 13 as Jap = Won
Scen 15 as Allied = Won
Scen 16 as Jap = NA
WPO Games
Scen 6 as Allied = Won
Scen 6 as Japs = NA

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Post #: 50

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 9:54:03 PM

Arnir

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As far as I know, all the supplies needed could be found in North America so cutting the supply lines would not be possible. (I could be wrong, I'm not sure where the uranium came from).

I don't know about the animations.

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Post #: 51

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 10:13:09 PM

kellyc

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>they did!!! i think the saying was...
>..."surrender now, or face utter defeat!" the japananse gave no reply so they 'nuked' >them...i could be wrong though, if someone knows the actual speech, please tell us!!
< Message edited by andytimtim -- 7/16/2004 7:46:54 PM >

On July 26, the Allied leaders issued their Potsdam Declaration: Japan must surrender or face "utter and complete destruction."
Naturally Japan ignored the ultimatum.....

Kellyc

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Post #: 52

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 10:23:22 PM

Mr.Frag

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If you want to kill off the A-Bomb, just go into the Scenario Editor and toggle it off. No need to use the Database Editor and mess with it.

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Post #: 53

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 10:31:38 PM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

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political debate is healthy in a democracy

take it to mad cow's, chump

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Post #: 54

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 10:42:00 PM

mavraam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Shelak

Japan did have an atomic bomb program, how far they got no one knows:

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/jp-abomb.htm

What I find interesting is that although Germany had deadly nerve gases (e.g. Sarin) and Japan had biological wepons, only the U.S. used weapons of mass destruction. Just an observation, call off the home guard!!

Churchhill wanted to use chemical weapons (mustard gas?) but was advised by his military experts that it was an inefficient way to bomb because it would just kill some people but not destroy idustry. Plus, Germans would have just had their workers put on gas masks during air raids and it would have been useless.

I'm sure the Germans came to the same conclusion. Certainly morality never figured in any of their decisions.

BTW, Japan did use bio-weapons against both Koreans and Chinese IIRC.

And one could argue that concentration camps and gulags were weapons of mass destruction of sorts.

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Post #: 55

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 10:50:45 PM

mavraam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andytimtim

quote:

ORIGINAL: general billy

By the way, did the US warn the japs that they were going to nuke a few of their cities if they didnt stop the war??

they did!!! i think the saying was...

..."surrender now, or face utter defeat!" the japananse gave no reply so they 'nuked' them...i could be wrong though, if someone knows the actual speech, please tell us!!

We gave a vague warning of a massive weapon without any particulars.

I saw a documentary that went into great detail on the complexity of how, where and why we used the nukes.

We couldn't pre-warn where we were going to drop it because we were affraid it might not work. We were concerned that would have backfired.

We couldn't use it on naval targets because it would have been impossible to tell how much damage it had caused, plus, they hardly had any targets left.

Part of the rational was as a warning to the Soviets who were gobbling up territory in leaps and bounds. When they saw us drop a second one, they had to assume we had more. Little did they know we had just used up the last of our fissionable material for quite some time!

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RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 11:11:05 PM

Sultanofsham

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Shelak

What I find interesting is that although Germany had deadly nerve gases (e.g. Sarin) and Japan had biological wepons, only the U.S. used weapons of mass destruction. Just an observation, call off the home guard!!

Thats a strange statement since Japan did use bio-weapons on a few cities in China.

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Post #: 57

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 11:44:08 PM

Jack Shelak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

political debate is healthy in a democracy

take it to mad cow's, chump

Gee I guess I should just agree with everything you say, and never talk about anything meaningfull anywhere, well:

Damn Nazis are everywhere, but you are history in November...

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 58

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 11:46:39 PM

Arnir

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I would assume and hope that the mods will deal with this childishness soon?

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Post #: 59

RE: Japan=Nukes? - 7/16/2004 11:46:53 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sultanofsham

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Shelak

What I find interesting is that although Germany had deadly nerve gases (e.g. Sarin) and Japan had biological wepons, only the U.S. used weapons of mass destruction. Just an observation, call off the home guard!!

Thats a strange statement since Japan did use bio-weapons on a few cities in China.