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Deploying Paratroops - 1/18/2002 10:01:00 PM   
Major Destruction


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		For those who have troubles getting their para's to arrive at the DZ by air......... Purchase your Paratroopers.
Purchase your transport planes Ensure that you purchase enough transport planes to carry all of your paratroopers. Purchase some gliders.
Units that are not classed as paratroopers will not parachute. Mortars, machine guns, anti-tank guns and some specialized vehicles can be transported in gliders. If playing with C2 OFF disregard this next step. If playing with C2 ON:
Place your transports somewhere on the map.
Line up your infantry as if waiting to board their transport.
Select the first infantry command unit (e.g. B0)
Decide where you want B0 to be dropped. Select the objective flag location for B0. Load B0 onto the transport. If you want another formation to use the same objective flag as B0, (e.g.Cx) select the objective flag for C. Load C3 onto the same transport as B0, Fill the first transport with remaining units from formation C. Assign the transport to the required DZ.
1. Enter the parachute arrival screen. It is selected using the bombardment button on the right of the deployment screen which has a parachute icon.
2.Decide the direction of the drop and of the return for your aircraft.
3. Decide which turn you want the aircraft to appear. Type t and then the turn number then enter.
4. Select the hex that you want the drop to arrive at.
5. Click on the bombardment button to place the parachute icon on the hex you have selected. Return to load the rest of formation C onto the next transport. You should decide though to load the rest of the formation onto a glider if these units are the mortars and MMG's (and any other units that will fit, such as an engineer unit or a infantry AT unit, scout, FO, etc. Place the arrival point of this second aircraft onto the same DZ as your first location. Try to avoid landing gliders in dense forest or rough ground. Repeat the process for all other paratroop formations. This is very time consuming, but if done correctly you will drop your para's in the right locations and with the correct objectives.

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- 1/18/2002 11:12:00 PM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		Very informative. I have been playing SPWAW for a while and I wasn't aware of all those steps. When C&C is on though,I would think you would want to separate your units on different transports. When C&C is on I don't think I would use a paradrop.

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- 1/18/2002 11:14:00 PM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		Excuse me, I meant "would not want to separate units on different transports:.

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- 1/18/2002 11:40:00 PM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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From: Algés, Lisbon - Portugal
Status: offline 		Major Destruction: Cheers for the detailed instructions. The t feature I think it is very important here. One correction though if you don't mind: machine guns will fit in the transport planes.

The criteria here is weight: if a unit weight is for example 4 then it could be transported by a plane therefore could be air-dropped. If the weight is let's say 105 then it could be carried only by glider. You have to look at weight/carry of the transport or glider and at the unit weigth in order to see if it fits. An important detail: some gliders can carry vehicles like the British Hamilcar that can carry a weight of 223.

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- 1/19/2002 1:12:00 AM   
V-man

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Major Destruction:
Purchase some gliders.
Units that are not classed as paratroopers will not parachute. Mortars, machine guns, anti-tank guns and some specialized vehicles can be transported in gliders.
That isn't true. I drop mortars and MGs all the time.
They suffer higher suppression on landing, but they get there.

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Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

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- 1/19/2002 3:24:00 AM   
Warrior


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quote:

Originally posted by Velovich:
That isn't true. I drop mortars and MGs all the time.
They suffer higher suppression on landing, but they get there.
I'd be suppressed, too, if I had to jump without training or a chute! To say nothing of being depressed by it all.

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- 1/19/2002 4:06:00 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
I'd be suppressed, too, if I had to jump without training or a chute! To say nothing of being depressed by it all.

I'd be surpressed, depressed and with a big bump in my head. Can you imagine the weight of a heavy machine gun or a mortar...ROFL (rolling on the floor laughing)

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- 1/19/2002 7:47:00 AM   
Alby


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quote:

Originally posted by Velovich:
That isn't true. I drop mortars and MGs all the time.
They suffer higher suppression on landing, but they get there.

mortars and Machine guns that come in the airborne formations WILL parachute, i know that. dont know about units bought outside the airborne formations. [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Alby ]



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- 1/19/2002 10:46:00 AM   
Major Destruction


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quote:

Originally posted by Drex:
Very informative. I have been playing SPWAW for a while and I wasn't aware of all those steps. When C&C is on though,I would think you would [not] want to separate your units on different transports. When C&C is on I don't think I would use a paradrop.

Most transports do not have suficient CC to carry the entire company and therefore you must seperate them. The trick is to make sure your platoon commander arrives farthest away from the objective flag so that as he advances towards it, he is able to rally and issue orders to those subordinates.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 9
- 1/19/2002 10:51:00 AM   
Major Destruction


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quote:

Originally posted by Alby:

mortars and Machine guns that come in the airborne formations WILL parachute, i know that. dont know about units bought outside the airborne formations.
Thank you for pointing that out. I read somewhere (maybe in the release notes) that only parachute infantry could indeed parachute. Was this a change for 6.1? I don't know. Ever since then I've never tried parachuting my machine guns and mortars. That's what you get for reading the instructions! Incidentally, I have found that a glider 'stick' if that's the correct term consisting of a ATG a mmg and an infantry squad makes for a very tough defensive position 'up front'. It helps if you cano smoke the area in advance of their drop so that they may rally, reposition and dig in unobserved. Once the smoke clears, they are ready for action and very difficult to dislodge.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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- 1/19/2002 11:22:00 AM   
deggo

 

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Status: offline 		I look carefully at the carry capacity of the transport and carry cost of the units. Always try and jam that transport full. You can wedge a few small units in the transports with your troops like inf AT or snipers to take advantage of the excess room.

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- 1/19/2002 11:40:00 AM   
Major Destruction


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		I now see the error of my ways. Not only can paratroopers be dropped by parachute but also any unit that can fit in the glider will use a parachute- including 4.2inch mortars.
So yes, if you have room for another few bods, go ahead and cram in some snipers or some scouts or infantry AT. They'll all jump.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 12
- 1/19/2002 11:47:00 AM   
Major Destruction


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quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
Major Destruction: Cheers for the detailed instructions. The t feature I think it is very important here.
It is tricky to get your men to arrive at the correct time. Does it make any difference if you are player one or player two? For instance, if the delay is zero, will your men arrive at the end of player one's turn or at the end of player two's turn.
If the delay is set to one, what is the outcome? My understanding is that the paratroops will arrive at the end of your opponent's turn in all cases but I think the rule does not apply to a zero turn delay.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 13
- 1/19/2002 12:20:00 PM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Major Destruction:
It is tricky to get your men to arrive at the correct time. Does it make any difference if you are player one or player two? For instance, if the delay is zero, will your men arrive at the end of player one's turn or at the end of player two's turn.
If the delay is set to one, what is the outcome? My understanding is that the paratroops will arrive at the end of your opponent's turn in all cases but I think the rule does not apply to a zero turn delay.
Let's say you are player 1. If the delay is 0.0 they will arrive at the end of your turn, if it is 1,0 they will arrive at the end of your next turn and so on. I'm not sure about decimals but I guess that, similar to artillery any decimals bigger or equal to 0.4 will arrive at the end of player 2's turn.

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- 1/19/2002 5:06:00 PM   
Khan7

 

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Status: offline 		Well, thank you for the instructions on how to drop 'chuters, personally I found it to be intuitive, but that should be very helpful, especially for people who play with C&C on (I don't). But when it comes to airborne insertions, the question I'm dying to ask, and I'm sure others are too, is-- why the heck can I drop people on top of trees and whatnot? Shouldn't they die? I haven't tried it, but I've got a sinking feeling (no pun intended) that I could drop people in the water and they'd just get up and march on. More serious is the fact that you can send gliders into the woods and not die. Troopers might survive such an ordeal, but the gliders would be toast for sure. Also, shouldn't there be a small factor for random factors, such as chute malfunction, bad drop, bad landing, etc., that would cause a small to moderate number of casualties? And in the daylight, shouldn't ground fire be able to blow the paratroopers to bits as they float helplessly down? Anyway, that's all I guess. I haven't played enough to make a firm comment, but it has seemed to me that the paratrooping option is a bit too powerful, perhaps. At any rate I can state for certain that paratroops in the game seem to be magically liberated of essentially all of their historic difficulties, except for a very mild and rather predictable slight off-target dropping pattern. Matt

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- 1/19/2002 8:23:00 PM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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From: Algés, Lisbon - Portugal
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quote:

Originally posted by Khan7:
Well, thank you for the instructions on how to drop 'chuters, personally I found it to be intuitive, but that should be very helpful, especially for people who play with C&C on (I don't).
I am planning to use this guys but never had an opportunity so far. Anyway I copied Major's instructions to a Word document for future use.
quote:

But when it comes to airborne insertions, the question I'm dying to ask, and I'm sure others are too, is-- why the heck can I drop people on top of trees and whatnot? Shouldn't they die? I haven't tried it, but I've got a sinking feeling (no pun intended) that I could drop people in the water and they'd just get up and march on.
In Normandy there was a lot of airdrops in trees and low water. Sure there was a lot of casualties but you cannot expect 100% casualties in a squad. I know troops land suppressed but I'm not sure if there are some casualties in the squads.
quote:

More serious is the fact that you can send gliders into the woods and not die. Troopers might survive such an ordeal, but the gliders would be toast for sure.

I don't know about you but if I remember correctly from some scenarios I played, all the gliders that landed in trees were destroyed. And some that landed in fields too.
quote:

Also, shouldn't there be a small factor for random factors, such as chute malfunction, bad drop, bad landing, etc., that would cause a small to moderate number of casualties? And in the daylight, shouldn't ground fire be able to blow the paratroopers to bits as they float helplessly down?
Here I agree with you. It should be a very nice animation to see some soldiers killed during the drop. As said above I'm not sure the game makes some casualties in drops or not but that kind of animations I think it is too much for the engine. Maybe in Combat Leader
quote:

Anyway, that's all I guess. I haven't played enough to make a firm comment, but it has seemed to me that the paratrooping option is a bit too powerful, perhaps. At any rate I can state for certain that paratroops in the game seem to be magically liberated of essentially all of their historic difficulties, except for a very mild and rather predictable slight off-target dropping pattern.
I don't know about that, I know the cost of the planes and gliders are a factor if you consider that unit is going to be used only once and maybe destroyed (gliders). [ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]



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- 1/20/2002 1:46:00 AM   
Khan7

 

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Status: offline 		IIRC gliders can get destroyed, but this never causes more than simple suppression to their passengers. And no, paratroops do not take casualties from landing. I consistently drop them in trees, and they don't even seem to get particularly suppressed (the suppression seems to be more of a random factor, or dependent on how much ground fire the plane was taking as it was diving in). Matt [ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Khan7 ]



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- 1/20/2002 3:01:00 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Khan7:
IIRC gliders can get destroyed, but this never causes more than simple suppression to their passengers. And no, paratroops do not take casualties from landing. I consistently drop them in trees, and they don't even seem to get particularly suppressed (the suppression seems to be more of a random factor, or dependent on how much ground fire the plane was taking as it was diving in).

Right, thanks. I wasn't sure about the casualties, in my opinion the model should contemplate that. Regarding Gliders - the destructuon of a Glider could be considered a penalty by itself because it's cost goes to opponent's score. Also here the model should consider casualties maybe even more severe than from airdrops. BTW: what is IIRC?

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- 1/20/2002 3:16:00 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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Status: offline 		My experience in stuffing cargo planes has been that anything that will fit inside will parachute out. This means that no vehicles or arty with a carry cost of 100 or more will fit in the cargo aircraft. Enter the gliders. For those of you who play mixed-nation forces, the Italian and Russian cargo aircraft have very high cargo capacity (44 and 30 IIRC), the US Glider is the least expensive, and only British and German gliders are large enough to carry vehicles. Also the only tanks that will fit into a glider are the British airborne tanks. I think, other than a few jeeps, no other vehicles can be delivered by air. Bizarre tactic: Buy a couple of cheap gliders, fill 'em with a couple of scout teams or somesuch, bring 'em in around turn 5-6 along an approach skirting the suspected battle area , and land 'em deep in enemy territory. Even if they arrive empty, your opponent will be compelled to check them out. And even if he doesn't bother, or you get shot out of the sky, you get some aerial recon of his forces about the time of his commitment of forces. This is a bloodthirsty tactic, and only used by the cruelest, most insensitive sort of generals.

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- 1/20/2002 9:06:00 AM   
Major Destruction


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Status: offline 		Here is a revised edition of my instructions. For those who have troubles getting their para's to arrive at the DZ by air.........
Purchase your Paratroopers.
Purchase your transport planes Ensure that you purchase enough transport planes to carry all of your paratroopers. Purchase some gliders.
These will be useful for transporting anti-tank guns and certain light vehicles. Vehicles that have a carry cost (cc) of less than 224 will be transported in a British Hamilcar, for example. If playing with C2 OFF disregard this next step. If playing with C2 ON:
Place your transports somewhere on the map.
Line up your infantry as if waiting to board their transport.
Select the first infantry command unit (e.g. B0)
Decide where you want B0 to be dropped. Select the objective flag location for B0. Load B0 onto the transport. If you want another formation to use the same objective flag as B0, (e.g.Cx) select the objective flag for C. Load C3 onto the same transport as B0, Fill the first transport with remaining units from formation C. Any leftover seats can be filled with small units such as scouts, FO's, Infantry Anti-tank, etc. Assign the transport to the required DZ.
1. Enter the parachute arrival screen. It is selected using the bombardment button on the right of the deployment screen which has a parachute icon.
2.Decide the direction of the drop and of the return for your aircraft. Avoid flak!
3. Decide which turn you want the aircraft to appear. Type t and then the turn number then enter.
4. Select the hex that you want the drop to arrive at.
5. Click on the bombardment button to place the parachute icon on the hex you have selected. All parachute and glider assignments that are set to arrive at turn 0 will arrive after Player 1 has deployed but before player 1 plays turn 1 All parachute and glider assignments that are set for turn x will arrrive after player 1 has played his turn x.
Return to load the rest of formation C onto the next transport. Place the arrival point of this second aircraft onto the same DZ as your first location. Try to avoid landing gliders in dense forest or rough ground. Repeat the process for all other paratroop formations. This is very time consuming, but if done correctly you will drop your para's in the right locations and with the correct objectives.
When playing with C2 ON, I like to drop my platoon commander so that as he advances towards the platoon objective flag, he is able to pass through his platoon, issuing orders and rallying his troops. I hope I have it right now.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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- 1/20/2002 11:58:00 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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Status: offline 		Major, many thanks. Updated my Word Document.

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Post #: 21
- 1/21/2002 1:33:00 AM   
Redleg


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Status: offline 		A couple of things to consider:
1. The more units on the aircraft, the more scattered the drop. 2. The AI consistently overshoots the drop area. 3. The sequence the parachute units leave the aircraft.

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