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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: saddened by poor interface

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RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 6:54:29 AM

Tactics

Posts: 347
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: USA
Status: offline

The "no scroll wheel thing" is a major pain. You can only be zoomed all the way in or have a gigantic view of the entire Pacific. I agree with Dinsdale on many of this points. I dont know if I would wish my $80 back, but I am dissapointed with the UI. And yes, I did play UV.

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(in reply to FirstPappy)

Post #: 31

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 7:30:42 AM

shoevarek

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/2/2004
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quote:

How can I find my *true* battle losses for a battle? As both sides have fog or war applied to them during the turn playback I am left guessing as to what really happened with regards to my own troops, how many I lost, etc. I think the player needs to know an accurate account of the battle from his perspective.

Yes, I never could understand this one - it seems as if military guys could not count their own losses. After a while you just divide the numbers by 2 or 3. It is probably more like oversight or bad design decission - it should require small amount of programmers' job to change it.

All in all i think they improved the UI a little bit compared with UV, although there are still some problems with base screens (like showing the units from previously seen base in spite of selecting the new one), encyclopedia (you always have to scroll the list after seeing a unit info - it does not remember current selection) and others. There are probably too many pop up windows - especially when choosing TF destination. Pop up menus would be nice addition.

Other UI things that could be changed:
1) Resource/Production screens - no filtering/sorting of any kind
2) Aircraft Losses screen - try to seperate Japanese or US losses - same thing no filtering/sorting.
3) Aircraft Replacement Pool screen - would be probably nice to keep R/D and Current Production separately or again be able to filter/sort.
4) Ship Availability screen - sort by ship class name would be good addition.
4) Ship Information screen - it is done somehow inconsistently - sometimes the AA, ASW and ship class values are displayed sometimes not (ea in encyclopedia, through Ship Availability screen etc).
5) Ship Encyclopedia - it would be nice to display base ship armament and ugrades in a single screen (scrollable??) instead of listing virtual ship classes for every upgrade. Sorting would be nice also.
6) Combat Report screen - maybe breakdown into naval, air and ground - sometimes it gets huge and is difficult to look through.
7) OP Report screen - I don't know what is the purpose of this. Allies have ULTRA so at least they can get meaningfull messages. For Japanese, sighting report: Allied ships at 113, 49 Moving... has no value because there are no hyperlinks to the sighted TF. Moreover there are reports about what allied recons saw that clutter the screen.
8) SigInt screen - see 7.
9) Active Ships List creen - info about ship class should be there. Lets say i want to find out all ships from some class to prevent them from being upgraded. How can i do that?

All things mentioned above should be fairly easy to implement (as they are actually implemented in some screens). The most important would be hyperlinks from all the Report screens. When the location is a base, there should be possibility to go to that base info screen - now by pressing this it just sets this location as current one and shows it for a split of the second. Just making the UI more consistent would improve the feel.

As for the game play I would like to see following things:
1) Way points for the TF - human and AI managed.
2) Target selection for air groups (like merchant, career force, surface force) - range selection is nice but it does not prevent AI from attacking unimportant targets with too many planes. It is one more thing the player would need to remeber about but I don't have a hope AI will be improved to the extend that would solve that problem. Of course when career TF is in the range it should take all the attention - defence of the mother TF should be primary target. But for example for the Japan it would make a difference in the later stages of war - attack naval military ships (suicidal with Japanese planes) or merchant convoy?? It would just enable player to choose its own strategy.
3) We have something called airball for bases. Would it be possible to assign that value to the hexes rather than bases? AI screws things when it comes to escort assignments. Near PH my TF launched two air strikes - one against some merchant TF - this got huge escort, and the other against few ships in PH hex. 30 planes were sent without single escort and were killed by few Allied planes. It should be modified somehow - for example when TF is attacked only CAP and TF AA is counted to the airball etc. So the actual airball value would change between mission types and depending on that AI would make the decission about escort assignments. The actual strike force size would have secondary weight in the decission.
4) What is the upgrade path for? I should say why do we have it at all? Player has the controll over the production and R&D. Why can't he choose the planes for airgroups freely? Now I don't have the means to streamline the production - Ki61, Ki45, Ki84, Ki100, many strange recon planes and so on. Constraints such as naval and army planes seems enough to me.
5) True free ship production. It would be nice to have the possibility of adding new ships to the production que. I need more escorts of some type? If the design (its armament) was available I should be able to order additional ships. All I need is the required resources and production capacity.
6) Generally, game should avoid taking into account historic statistics values - if the player is doing great as Japanese he should not be penalized as historic statistics have nothing to do with his current situation. The pilot training levels is the example - lets say I care about the pilots and prevent excessive losses. Now it does not matter at all - you get crapy pilots no matter what. Maybe something like pilot instructor pool would be a solution. I think someone proposed this earlier - send experienced pilots to the pool (they can even loose some exp points as not beeing engaged in active combat duty) but in return get some training points and get fresh pilots with improved exp values.

(in reply to MadDawg)

Post #: 32

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 7:32:30 AM

dinsdale

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Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I suppose they could have completely scrapped the UV UI and started from scratch with something more modern, but juding by the market segment, that would have ruled out about 80% of their customer base is is really not something you want to do with a specialty product. The footprint for this game with a Windows type GUI would kill them game completely from a performance standpoint. A lot of folks are borderline right now.

Those interface conventions are not monopolies of a windows GUI though. Further, obviously you'd know better than me, but isn't performance hit most during AI and turn processing? It would seem to me that manipulating the UI is the period with the smallest resource footprint so enhancements in that area would not affect performance.

quote:

I've yet to see anyone post anything that would actually be a benefit to making the game easier to use.

Well, I'd say you're probably not the best person to judge anymore ;) You've had UV and playtested WiTP, the game is second nature to you now so that you are completely immersed in the present control system. When one has such experience with a UI then it becomes very difficult to find fault with it.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 33

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 7:39:15 AM

Arnir

Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline

I must admit that I don't understand why the simple act of saving the game is such a clickfest. Click on the slot for the slave. The click on the save name and type in the name you want to use. Then click on the actual save button.

Most games I've played let you simply click where you want it saved, a box opens for you to type the name and then it is saved. Seems much simpler to me.

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Post #: 34

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 7:41:43 AM

MadDawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

Those interface conventions are not monopolies of a windows GUI though. Further, obviously you'd know better than me, but isn't performance hit most during AI and turn processing? It would seem to me that manipulating the UI is the period with the smallest resource footprint so enhancements in that area would not affect performance.

Yup, basically if windows can runs fine on your system then any well coded 2D game should run just well (Ive run Rise of Nations, an RTS, on an old Celeron laptop with no problems at all).

Calculating the AI is a different matter, but not one that is being discussed here.

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/26/2004 5:57:19 AM >

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 35

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 7:43:01 AM

MadDawg

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Shoevarek, some great suggestions there....have you added them to the wish list?

Dawg

(in reply to shoevarek)

Post #: 36

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 8:26:21 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nihilimus

My biggest concern when buying this game was whether the gaming interface would be cumbersome or intuitive. Unfortunately, it is the former.

Much like its difficult-to-use web site (with various popup windows, hidden and moving scroll bars, links to pages without content), Matrix Games has a game design that leaves much to be desired.

Before I get further into that criticism, I want to say that even with the shortcomings, the game is admirable in scope and depth. However, playability is hampered due to the frustrating and poorly implemented user interface.

A few notes:

� Why can�t a find arrival dates of aircraft in the database? Why doesn�t sorting by type work? (And various other issues here).
� Watching the battles is hokey to say the least � and time consuming. So I turn that off but have no visual way to go back and view where the battles occurred or with a quick click get a summary. Instead, I must be satisfied with a text display that gives me coordinates� Yet, there is no way to hover over the map and determine ones coordinates.
� Stepping through task forces is a pain. I can only �next task force� within a hex. If I open the menu to list all task forces, I can click on a task force, get its info but am not immediately taken to that portion of the map. Even if I did, I could see what was behind the menu without closing it. Same is true for airfields and air groups.
� Where can I find battle losses?
� I must continually scan where they placed the �exit� button. Sometimes in the lower right. Sometimes on the top. Who knows? I�ll get used to that after awhile, but it is still power design.

I�m sure I�ll find more to criticize after playing longer, but a poor UI is the death knell of game � or any software. I feel that those of us starved enough for a quality game with all of its historical glory will deal with these limitations, but I truly wish Matrix would work harder to get it right.

I have similar fears for other upcoming games that I�m eager for from a gaming perspective.

Been playing this game now for about a month, and I have to say, this is a GLARING weakness. Overall, I love the depth, and complexity and the combat resolution and attention to historical detail is excellent. But the UI, frankly SUCKS. I will NEVER understand why game developers refuse to adhere to standard WIN32 user interface standards. They continually insist on "rolling their own" when it comes to UI's and it never ceases to amazing how completely and utterly short sighted that is.

Just give us a standard Windows UI. What is so damned hard about that???? Dialog boxes with universal standard checklist style listboxes, combo boxes, pushbuttons, etc.... Sometimes I think the programers have never coded a Windows interface in their programming lives.

But inspite of the UI, this game is very good. Sadly, it could have been even better with standard, intuitive, Windows UI.

Hint, to the programmers......take a look at the wxWidgets toolkit. It works, it's easy to use. But it's C++, a seemingly forbidden ground for guys stuck in procedural antiquity....

(in reply to nihilimus)

Post #: 37

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 11:04:09 AM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

Much like its difficult-to-use web site (with various popup windows, hidden and moving scroll bars, links to pages without content), Matrix Games

Care to elaborate? Where are the "various" popups? Where are "hidden" scroll bars? What are "moving" scroll bars ??? Which pages are without content? If you find a broken link then please report it to the webmaster.

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Post #: 38

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 11:34:19 AM

moonraker65

Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

I must admit the interface isn't great in a lot of respects but it's not THAT bad!

I totally understand nihilimus's views - the exit button being placed in a different location on every screen is especially annoying - but it certainly isn't so bad as to ruin the game.

The worst interface I can think of is Harpoon III. That took me a while to get the hang of and still niggles me.. but sometimes u just gotta get used to something to find the gem of a game underneath. Working in government the computer interface I use at work often infuriates me.. I wouldn't be surprised if people working in the armed forces feel the same about their software.

It's a shame that sometimes the most infantile games have the best interface while the most complex have the worst.. one of life's paradox's.. but don't be put off WiTP because of that..

And this is a Gem of a Game without doubt. I do compare it with PacWar in some respects but this a much deeper game in many ways. You get used to the interface over time and it's not so bad. And as with so many games this will be improved over time I suspect. Having now played WitP for the past fortnight I can honestly say it was well worth the money. Well done Matrix & 2x3

< Message edited by moonraker -- 7/26/2004 9:43:12 AM >

(in reply to Banquet)

Post #: 39

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 11:45:34 AM

le Jason

Posts: 14
Joined: 5/24/2000
From: Hamburg, Germany
Status: offline

I have just the same problems with the interface, as nihilimus describes it:
I like the game as well, but I think that I can expect a userfriendly interface for a game/software worth 66 EURs/75 $.

My biggest concern is, that I have to browse through three different tables in order to get necessary information for deciding which aircraft I should produce/ research.

I need I button in the Unit detail window, which enables me to browse through all taskforce, ground units, bases, aircraft units and production plants (aircraft, engine, ...).

Then I like to have a shortcut/ key for the "done" and the "exit". These buttons are really hard to hit. So a key could solve the problem.

These Improvements would WITP life much easier !

(in reply to nihilimus)

Post #: 40

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 1:00:56 PM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
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Two things I'd like are

1. When you left click in a scrollbar, the data is advanced by one "page", i.e. the row just off the bottom is set at the top. Currently, the scrollbars jump to that point in the list. Not very handy when you're presented with very long lists.

2. A way to filter some of the lists by designated command of the unit/base, as some of the naval lists are by ship type.

I have to agree that I feel the interface could be better, but have played UV I'm used to it and it is possible tp lay the game with the current interface. I remember thinking how "ungainly" it was back then. Hope 3by2 come up with something more user-friendly in future games.

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Bodhi

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Post #: 41

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 1:40:07 PM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Which pages are without content? If you find a broken link then please report it to the webmaster.

Can't figure out how to do that from the WitP site as I couldn't find any link to the webmaster.

So I posted here about most of the "links" being dead. David Heath replied so I assume he's forwarded to whoever's responsible.

One thing that would be useful on the site is that when you click on a new link from the left hand menu, the centre frame scrolls back to the top. At first sight it appears that many of the pages are blank if you've scrolled down on an earlier page.

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Post #: 42

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 2:45:37 PM

Panzer76

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/6/2004
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A few points to remember:

1. Do Matrix want MORE customers than the UV crowd? If so, the "if you know UV you will be fine" arguments is not a good argument.

2. Also, as others pointed out, if you drastically change the scope etc of the game, you cant simply "port" the UV UI. I know there has been made some improvments, but by and large, its seems to have retained teh basics.

3. How can IMPROVING the UI scare away Grognards? Do they somehow dislike intuitive and easily accessable UIs?

4. Is the right mouse butten STILL unfunctional in WiTP? If so, Its mind blowing! Think od all the one click actions you could enable by using BOTH buttons.

5. Shouldnt the developers also focus on a great UI? I mean, I dont think anyone here, besides hard core fans, beta testers and developers would argue that WiTP has a GREAT UI?
Somehow, I do not think this is the developers strong suit.

6. The more complex game the game is, the more essential is it for the UI to be good. This is a VERY complex game, nuff said..

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Panzer

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to Tactics)

Post #: 43

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 3:10:16 PM

Captain Cruft

Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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I think the UI has both good and bad aspects. Some things are very quick, others desperately over-complicated and slow.

For my money keyboard shortcuts in the edit and list boxes would make a huge, vast and enormous difference. It's difficult to believe that you can't actually use the cursor keys to scroll down a list ...

(in reply to Panzer76)

Post #: 44

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 3:41:42 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

It's difficult to believe that you can't actually use the cursor keys to scroll down a list ...

Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?

Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)

Post #: 45

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:04:01 PM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?
Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Agreed the mouse wheel in the list is easier than the scrollbar arrows, but I still haven't found a way to page through the list. The standard way of clicking outside the marker for the current row/page, just jumps to that point in the list. Maybe that's just fine for you, but I like to page through long lists of stuff. Of course, I'd prefer to have more filters so that I don't have such a long list in the first place.

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Post #: 46

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:04:24 PM

Captain Cruft

Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?

Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Sorry, my mistake. Since the keyboard is otherwise redundant I assumed it was also the case in that context.

I was wondering ... Is there any chance an API could be made available (binary form only) so that people could write their own front-ends? Or possibly some sort of plugin interface? Chargeable of course

Since it's going to take people 3-5 years to play this thing through with PBEM it might be worth it ...

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 47

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:09:49 PM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Which pages are without content? If you find a broken link then please report it to the webmaster.

Can't figure out how to do that from the WitP site as I couldn't find any link to the webmaster. So I posted here about most of the "links" being dead. David Heath replied so I assume he's forwarded to whoever's responsible.

How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon ;). We have this footer on every Matrix Games official game page.

I agree on the links list, but please keep in mind that these are third party websites. They don�t belong to Matrix Games, so please don�t "blame us" if they�re down or don�t have any content currently

quote:

One thing that would be useful on the site is that when you click on a new link from the left hand menu, the centre frame scrolls back to the top. At first sight it appears that many of the pages are blank if you've scrolled down on an earlier page.

This is on my fix list since long. It was a CSS / Layers problem I couldn�t fix. Now I know how.

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Post #: 48

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:13:55 PM

Bodhi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon ;).

LOL, so there are.

Top marks to the page desinger for hiding them away out of sight so nicely: I'd have never noticed them if you hadn't told me.

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Bodhi

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Post #: 49

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:18:46 PM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon ;).

LOL, so there are. Top marks to the page desinger for hiding them away out of sight so nicely: I'd have never noticed them if you hadn't told me.

I can make them 500x500 pixels big if you like.

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Post #: 50

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:21:12 PM

kayjay

Posts: 133
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: JS J4 Pentagon
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Many of us older gamers suffer from poor eyesight and RSI injuries - and we are the ones with $ to spend on $70 games. The font problems have been addressed in antoher thread. To play WITP should not require one to have played UV to learn the interface. The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself to allow the use of text editors, multiplew monitors and such and allow the player to view their computers clock or check email while a turn is running.

Kevin

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 51

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:24:56 PM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kkelley

Many of us older gamers suffer from poor eyesight and RSI injuries - and we are the ones with $ to spend on $70 games. The font problems have been addressed in antoher thread. To play WITP should not require one to have played UV to learn the interface. The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself to allow the use of text editors, multiplew monitors and such and allow the player to view their computers clock or check email while a turn is running.

Kevin

You can run it "windowed". It�s an unsupported feature. It�s been mentioned quite often now allready.

You don�t have to have played UV to be able to play WITP.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 7/26/2004 9:25:56 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 4:31:54 PM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kkelley

The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself .....

Create a shortcut from the EXE to the desktop. Right click on the shortcut and put a -w at the end of the "Target" field. Click "OK". The game will run in a windowed mode then, but as mentioned before, it�s unsupported.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 7/26/2004 9:37:03 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 5:48:59 PM

Tige

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I hate that my first post is critical of the game but the interface is cumbersome. There is alot of information to digest, especially playing full map scenarios, which could be represented better with a graphical representation rather than everything displayed as a clipboard such as sigint and coast watchers.

Using coastwatchers as an example: Instead of the clipboard which is anchored in the middle of the screen listing out oodles of sightings, why not have a "coastwatchers map" with all sightings plotted on a map at the end of each turn? Either the full map or by command map sectors. Mouse over the binoculars and have the info from that watcher in a pop up like mousing over a base? Reading the clipboard at the end of each turn, or trying to keep up with the sightings during the turn is beyond tedium. In a full map scenario it takes hours to check the clipboard, go back to the map and find the location of the coastwatcher, then repeat for all sightings. A map would give the user the big picture immediately by showing increased or decreased activity etc etc. Overlay the SigInt and you can start to get a feel for what is going on.

Why not have a strategic map with filters to give the player access to the information all at once? The maps can be the full theater or each command. Hell, while I'm dreaming, they can be listed by Lat and Long vs. hexes. :D

At the end of a turn pull up a map for the scenario, on the side have filters which graphically represent different units or info i.e.

Surface Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Ships
Transport Ships
Subs

Air Units
Combat
Recon

Ground Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Units
HQs
Aviation Units

Coastwatchers

SigInt

Say a player checks the coastwatchers map and sees increased activity in a particular area. With the coastwatcher filter selected, overlay the SigInt and Subs. He now can divert subs within the area and can make a decision if it is worth diverting to intercept.

Same with supplies, if a base has been attacked or needs more supplies, select the appropriate Transports and see if a supply transport can be diverted etc etc.

The only other beef I really have is supplies and ground troops. Having to load in supplies is like having to equip infantry units with a particular firearm. Each units' load value should include supplies imho.

-Tige

(in reply to kayjay)

Post #: 54

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 5:56:03 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

I like the UI. It seems pretty intuitive to me actually. I woudl like to get a map that lists Grid Locations however. It is nice to see Combat at 43,21 but where the hell is that? There is no grid locator other than clicking on a hex and readign that location. Maybe teh addition of general map grids on the COntrol screen. It divides up the map into CPU /Human control, why not add in the grid scale per section. Might make it easier to figure out who did what where.

UB

(in reply to FirstPappy)

Post #: 55

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 5:59:57 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?
Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Agreed the mouse wheel in the list is easier than the scrollbar arrows, but I still haven't found a way to page through the list. The standard way of clicking outside the marker for the current row/page, just jumps to that point in the list. Maybe that's just fine for you, but I like to page through long lists of stuff. Of course, I'd prefer to have more filters so that I don't have such a long list in the first place.

Once again, I think it would be preferable if the game interface worked exactly like a standard Windows application written to Microsoft's User Interface Standards. Standard dialog buttons (like Ok and Cancel/Exit) in standard and CONSISTANT locations. Windows standard mousing, list paging, item selection, etc. Standard Windows menubar, toolbar, statusbar widgets. Ability to run in whatever resolution you want (I should be able to run in 1600x1200 if I want to).

And what's with that save dialog? What planet did that nonsense come from. What's the problem with the universally standard WIN32 file dialog?

We all work in Windows in our daily work lives, and at least in a turn based wargame, a standard Windows interface is just fine. We live in that evironment and it is tried and true. You can still have all the eye candy you want inside the windows, including DirectX based graphics and sound(yuch!) if you wan them, but what's so hard or bad about using the now universally accepted standard Windows interface?

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 56

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 6:04:28 PM

The Gnome

Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

The whole exit button location controversy has me a bit befuddled. Whenever I wanna exit a screen I just hit the ESC button. Why waste a mouse click?

Because different people fall into different patterns. Some people like the keyboard and get used to hitting "Esc" other get used to using the mouse. You still need to take an action to get off that screen - whether it's a click or a keystroke. Also, using the "Esc" key can lead to some funky behaviour, especially during turn resolution where you could close two windows by hitting "esc" once.

As to the UI in general, it's not a strength. The whole point of UI design is to make the interface interaction almost invisible. The user should feel like he's directly manipulating the data - not manipulating an interface that's manipulating the data. When I use a good interface it's almost like my thoughts are flowing into the computer and anything that disrupts that process needs to be eliminated. Unfortunately, the WiTP interface is loaded with those hiccups that jolt my immersion.

Some of the common things:
-Slowness/delays when clicking certain buttons.
-Hard to read fonts
-Inconsistent location of buttons
-Displaying Code Values and opposed to descriptions
-Unexpected behaviour (example: Click the Airfield list and if the mouse is over a link when the window opens that link gets clicked too)
-Hard to click buttons and symbols.

The interface isn't bad and makes quite a few improvements from its UV cousin. It could be a lot better though. Some of the improvements may be easy to make, others may be design level problems which we'll likely be stuck with.

(in reply to Platoonist)

Post #: 57

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 6:04:34 PM

Panzer76

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck
I like the UI. It seems pretty intuitive to me actually.

Have you played UV? Sorry, but I assume you have. Really, to determine how good the UI is, let new players that havent played UV comment. UV players already know the system, what they think is of limited value. IMHO.

_____________________________

Cheers,
Panzer

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 58

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 6:10:38 PM

riverbravo

Posts: 1320
Joined: 1/16/2003
From: Bay St Louis Ms.
Status: offline

Its kind of a catch 22.

With a game this size not everything will be a click away.

_____________________________

I laugh at hurricanes!

(in reply to Panzer76)

Post #: 59

RE: saddened by poor interface - 7/26/2004 6:13:34 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tige

I hate that my first post is critical of the game but the interface is cumbersome. There is alot of information to digest, especially playing full map scenarios, which could be represented better with a graphical representation rather than everything displayed as a clipboard such as sigint and coast watchers.

Using coastwatchers as an example: Instead of the clipboard which is anchored in the middle of the screen listing out oodles of sightings, why not have a "coastwatchers map" with all sightings plotted on a map at the end of each turn? Either the full map or by command map sectors. Mouse over the binoculars and have the info from that watcher in a pop up like mousing over a base? Reading the clipboard at the end of each turn, or trying to keep up with the sightings during the turn is beyond tedium. In a full map scenario it takes hours to check the clipboard, go back to the map and find the location of the coastwatcher, then repeat for all sightings. A map would give the user the big picture immediately by showing increased or decreased activity etc etc. Overlay the SigInt and you can start to get a feel for what is going on.

Why not have a strategic map with filters to give the player access to the information all at once? The maps can be the full theater or each command. Hell, while I'm dreaming, they can be listed by Lat and Long vs. hexes. :D

At the end of a turn pull up a map for the scenario, on the side have filters which graphically represent different units or info i.e.

Surface Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Ships
Transport Ships
Subs

Air Units
Combat
Recon

Ground Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Units
HQs
Aviation Units

Coastwatchers

SigInt

Say a player checks the coastwatchers map and sees increased activity in a particular area. With the coastwatcher filter selected, overlay the SigInt and Subs. He now can divert subs within the area and can make a decision if it is worth diverting to intercept.

Same with supplies, if a base has been attacked or needs more supplies, select the appropriate Transports and see if a supply transport can be diverted etc etc.

The only other beef I really have is supplies and ground troops. Having to load in supplies is like having to equip infantry units with a particular firearm. Each units' load value should include supplies imho.

-Tige

Yes aside from the non-Windows style interface that takes some getting used to, we need a lot more flexibility in data query and combat result display. The interface has come a long way from UV in terms of being able to sort and filter information, but the database is so vast it is almost as if we need an ad-hoc query interface. For instance I want just a list of Infantry LCU's with fatigue greater than 50 and supply "in the red". Or just a list of bases in a particular theater that are currently short of supply, general support, avaiation support without the clutter of the other bases in there. Sorting is nice, but filtering is even better.

Another sorely needed feature, due to the immense complexity of this game, is on-line, context sensative, help that is a standard feature in most Windows applications. When I get a "NOT ALLOWED" message I should be able to immediately click a help button or drag a "?" icon to the message and get a quick pop-up explaing what the problem is. Drag a "?" to that red number and get a pop-up that tells me what the field is and what might make it red.

Normally these are not big deals because most games are simple enough not to need them. But this game resembles, in a lot of ways, a complex data-driven enterprise business application, more than a real game. And as such, it probably could use the kind of features that normally accompany that kind of application. WitP is of such unprecedented scale that it probably has completely outgrown the normal paradigms in vogue today in game programming in a lot of ways. Interface is just on of them. Data management is another.

(in reply to Tige)

Post #: 60

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