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Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 2:42:56 PM   
le Jason

 

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I still can´t figure aut, what direct effect the increasing production for vehicles and armament has.
Does that mean, that I my ground units get more guns and vehicles? Or does it mean that I get new tank units (which I do not belive, as the arriving schedule is fixed)?
Post #: 1
RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 4:53:54 PM   
MadmanRick


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Jason,
I *think* (although I am by no means positive) that increasing your vehicle and armament production, will simply allow you to replace your losses quicker. It may also allow your combat units to become combat ready quicker, as these items are needed to "fill out" newly arrived LCU's. I do not believe that increasing the production of vehicles and armaments will allow you to get "new" tank units. as according to the manual "except for most HQ units and some Chinese units ground units are not replaced when destroyed". So therefore you are limited to the units which are in the database.

Rick

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 9:34:23 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: le Jason

I still can´t figure aut, what direct effect the increasing production for vehicles and armament has.
Does that mean, that I my ground units get more guns and vehicles? Or does it mean that I get new tank units (which I do not belive, as the arriving schedule is fixed)?


There are no new units in the game. Every unit is scheduled to arrive at a certain point and this cannot be changed. What happens is the following...

A new unit is scheduled to arrive today.. The computer checks you stocks on hand (squads, guns, tanks, etc...). If you have enough the unit comes into the game at 100% strength and the items are subtracted from your pools... If you do not have enough of any one item the unit comes into the game at 1/3 strength and no items are subtracted from the pool. Thus if you want your new units to be ready to deploy right away you need to have a lot of extras in your pool..

Also, the computer spends your vehicle and armamnet points each turn to construct items that your units (being built and on map) need. It then puts them into the pool to be used by the units. This is the only way to reinforce a unit that has taken heavy losses in combat. Without a good supply of replacements your land units will become depleted and worthless.

Remember... Units need a lot of supply to recieve replacements and HQs will speed up the rate they recieve them as well. Also remember items in the pool cannot be bombed or destroyed (as far as I know) by any type of enemy attack - so if you have tons of items in your pools and the allies are bombing you they can only stop you from making more - not destroy what you already have. If you store enough in the pools it might allow you to fight longer than normal..

Also, it seems that in order for the computer to make an item (IJA Squad, NLF Squad, etc....) either a new unit must be close to completion that needs it, or a unit on the map must be missing some and have replacements on.. Otherwise it will not make any of that item.

Xargun

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 10:42:41 PM   
olivier_slith


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How much time does it take for a unit to arrive at full stregth once it starts arriving?

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 11:08:13 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dhennin

How much time does it take for a unit to arrive at full stregth once it starts arriving?


Not sure what you mean.. If a unit is to arrive on Dec 18, 41 it will arrive on that date in the base specified... It will either arrive at full strength or at 1/3.. Once the date is set in the game it will arrive on the day specified.

Xargun

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 11:25:16 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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It is my impression and experience that the Japanese industry is unable to provide even the new units in 1941 with arms and they arrive with not 1/3 of the strenght but rather 1/8 of it...

Example: 125th IJA Base Force, arrives in Tokyo on Dec 17th or 18th

It has only 1 75mm gun (out of 4), 1 40mm AA (of 4), 1 13mm AA (of 4), 7 avaition support squad (out of 30), 12 support squad (out of 100), 2 engineers (out of ten), the sound detector (out of 1) and zero IJA infantry squads (out of 40)

I have stopped all replacements for ground units before the start of the game and have only opened them for units of the Southern Area engaged in battles, but the armaments stock is depleted in less than two weeks... even by trying to expanding it at once.

Another example: the 21st Special Base Force, arrives in Palau on Dec 15-16th (8 days delay at start)

Here, 25% of troops are available.

Has anybody else noticed that ?

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/28/2004 11:45:13 PM   
esteban


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Yes, probably one of the first things you need to do as the Japanese is to radically expand your armaments industry. I mean by 300-400%, up from 501 points at the start to close to 1500-2000 points. Maybe even higher. There are several small armament factories in Japan, around Kyoto and Tokyo, that are good to expand. There are also a two 75 point factories in Seoul and Mukden that you can expand, if you want to move production to places where it is easier to get resources to.

Also, you need to expand your vehicle production. If you look at your armored units, you will notice that many of them start at 50%-60% strength. Some of the divisions have armored and mech units too, but I do not know if these elements are understrength or not. I haven't figured out how much you need to expand your vehicle industry by, but I would say that at least a 50% expansion is required. Vehicle production is pretty much all on Honshu, as I recall, around Tokyo and Kyoto.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 3:11:05 AM   
Sinjen


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My vehicle pool is doing far better than armaments. I have like 5 or 6 base forces waiting to be brought up to strength. I use all my armament points each turn. so far I have increased my armaments to almost 700. I can see I will need to continue expanding both for the foreseeable future.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 7:55:53 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban
Yes, probably one of the first things you need to do as the Japanese is to radically expand your armaments industry. I mean by 300-400%, up from 501 points at the start to close to 1500-2000 points. Maybe even higher...
Doesn’t each point of Armament Industry require 6 Heavy Industry points to produce one armament point? Can such and expansion be supported?

501 Armament points costs 3006 HI
2000 Armament point costs 12,000 HI

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 10:17:52 AM   
mogami


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Your learning Bucko. The Japanese are not an industrial Giant that can equip units over night. Some of the units require time to fill out. You may need to use units that are not at 100 percent TOE. You can't suffer needless loss and then make it all better so the unit can do it again the next day.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 12:03:32 PM   
esteban


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban
Yes, probably one of the first things you need to do as the Japanese is to radically expand your armaments industry. I mean by 300-400%, up from 501 points at the start to close to 1500-2000 points. Maybe even higher...
Doesn’t each point of Armament Industry require 6 Heavy Industry points to produce one armament point? Can such and expansion be supported?

501 Armament points costs 3006 HI
2000 Armament point costs 12,000 HI


Japan starts with a surplus of about 2500 heavy industry per day at the start of the game. Generally, between what you can capture in Rangoon, Singapore, Hong Kong, Changsha, and maybe Yunan, you can get a few hundred more. So that pretty much takes care of the initial expansion. Your air production doesn't so much increase as change, as you move production from some of your transports, and planes like Nates, to models that you need more of, like Kates, Zeroes, some more R&D for certain models, and maybe another Nell/Betty factory. Also, you run out of pilots before planes. You can use an expansion of the Japanese naval shipyards early on as well, but only about 80 points or so, as far as I can tell from my not-to-exacting observation of the yard build list. That only uses about 240 HI points per day.

So there is a fair amount of room for expansion of the existing industry before you hit your first wall, lack of more HI. After the first wall, comes the second wall, of capturing enough resources and oil before your stockpile draws down. After that, comes the third wall, which is being able to produce and ship enough resources to expand your HI further. Then the fourth wall, being able to preserve your resource/industrial base from Allied attack as best as possible.

However, the armaments industry is the single biggest shortfall in the Japanese production system. Japan produces about 6 manpower points for every armament point she starts with. Some of that manpower will be needed for industrial expansion and vehicle production, but I would guess at least 2/3 of it can be used for armaments. Thats where I get the 400% expansion from. I have done a 200%+ expansion so far in the games I have played versus the AI, but I have not played any of those games past mid-1942.

Unfortunately, the disparity between manpower and vehicles and armaments is such that pretty much any manpower points that go into your manpower pool, and are not nearly immediately kitted out with a vehicle or armaments, are just going to sit there for the rest of the war. It would be nice if you could turn off some of the manpower centers, but you can't.

I have done a couple of the 44/45 scenarios as Japan for 6-8 months too, but in those cases, the at-start situation is not conducive to a lot of industrial expansion. By then, most of the fatal mistakes have been made, and it is just a question of being able to hold an island or two or preserve a city or two that couldn't be saved historically.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 2:30:17 PM   
FirstPappy


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What does the computer do when it plays for the Jap side? If it doesn't do any of those things you suggested then it would be at a significant disadvantage. It would seem to me that if I wanted to play against the AI as the Allies, my best chance for a reasonable game against the AI would be Scenarios 13 and 14 (May42 & Aug42).

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 4:56:38 PM   
esteban


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I don't know what the AI does. I am not one of those people who when they play the AI, they swap sides every now and then, just to look at when the AI is up to, and then immediately swap back so they can go pummel the AI even more.

I will say that I think that the AI does a better job of playing the Allies than the Japanese, but even so, but mostly because it is easier to break the Japanese AI (not get the Japanese AI to respond to an invasion of Wake or the Marshalls) than to break the Allied AI.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 9:12:10 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Your learning Bucko. The Japanese are not an industrial Giant that can equip units over night. Some of the units require time to fill out. You may need to use units that are not at 100 percent TOE. You can't suffer needless loss and then make it all better so the unit can do it again the next day.


It' not that some of the units require time to fill out. It is that all unist arriving after some days in the war will require to fill out and they will not be able to do so because new units arrive and you have to double your HI production to only create armements points for them, not even speaking of losses you may suffer elsewhere. And you can't double your HI production because there are not enough oil available on the map....

Japan wasn't an industrial giant but in the game, plane production is OK, ship production is a little too small to deliver all ships planned but armament production are unable to cope with the simpliest demands... For me there is here a simulation problem...

Also you produce far too much useless manpower, more than 2000 manpower more than your armament production. One point is used for every factory expansion, so you can expand 2000 factories each day... seriously, the whole expansion of the Japanese industry during the war will only cost you 2 or 3 days of manpower, all the rest will just use ressources to go in a pool. Why ?

If an armament factories produce 4, 5 or 6 armaments points per factories points (as manpower center do), things will be OK and Japan will be able to support part of its army (in Dec 1941, new units need 60000 points, and upgrades of otheru nit will cost 10000-15000 points). And manpower production will be useful.

Right now is like producing 3000 planes airframes each day and only 600 engines....

What I see in my IJN games is that Japanese units will see most of their losses not replaced and will see no new unit replace them. At a scale that is totally unhistorical in 1942.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 9:23:13 PM   
Spooky


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Do we have some kind of historical data for the Japanese armament & vehicle production in 1942 ?

It should help us to understand if it is a mistake in the computation process (1 armament factory should produce 4, 5 or 6 armament point instead of 1) or if the Japanese industry was really that weak at the beginning at the war ...

< Message edited by Spooky -- 7/29/2004 8:23:37 PM >


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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 9:34:31 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pappy

What does the computer do when it plays for the Jap side? If it doesn't do any of those things you suggested then it would be at a significant disadvantage. It would seem to me that if I wanted to play against the AI as the Allies, my best chance for a reasonable game against the AI would be Scenarios 13 and 14 (May42 & Aug42).


i asked this before and they said the AI doesnt do anything. so yes add this to the AI gets screwed list.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/29/2004 10:44:06 PM   
Xargun

 

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My question concerning armaments is this: After you upgrade older weapons for newer designs (japanese replace 37mm AT Guns with 47mm AT Guns... But now I have several thousand 37mm AT Guns sitting in my pool doing nothing.. Are these recycled like aircraft are ? If not, they should either be recycled, or allowed to be used to outfit units with the lesser weapons - better a 37mm AT Gun than no AT Gun..

ANd I agree with the Manpower deal. Its early Feb 42 in my game and I just topped 180,000 manpower in my pool. My armament pool is just over 10,000 something is off a bit here.. The only units I have that are filling out nice (anywhere on the map) are my Tank Regiments and my Base Forces.. Everyone else seems to not be recieving replacements no matter where they are.

Xargun

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 12:41:56 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I am in late Feb 42 my manpower is 51764 (I used 807 last turn)
my armament production is 4810 (I used 674 last turn)

I built 765 airframes and 1647 engines.
184 Vehicles.

My manpower totals for war to date are 51764 in pool and 365716 used total
Arms 4810 in pool 64070 used total
Vehicles 408 in pool 13014 used total

As far as I can tell my units are growing. The base forces and SNLF arrived in great number and required a few weeks to gain TOE to where they could be used. (Units do not grow unless there is that 20k supply in the hex. Your pools might be overflowing but the units don't grow.
Japanese ground units arrive as newly raised. They are not full strength. It takes a monster economy to produce combat/support units in just 24 hours. Most units require months not days or weeks but Japan in thsi game has yet to alter any of my prewar operations for want of units. Many baseforce have been sent to newly captured bases. (when a unit arrives in Tokyo at 12 or 22 percent TOE I still assign it an objective. As it fills out it also gains readiness that it will put to use training and adding to the defense value once I move it to it's base. In the same convoy I send enough supply to insure the base has over 20k (so the unit can finish growing)

Empire wide I have 2,154,759 supply points and 3,554,182 fuel points. (I believe this exceeds my prewar starting totals)

The date is 2/26/42 can we get some players near this date to post the status of their game so we can try to understand where the differance are coming from?

I've built all the SNLF that start in China to 100 percent plus many of the Brigades there. My Tank Regts are all near 100 percent (The ones that begin in Taan) All the SNLF that have arrived are full and most of the baseforces. (I have 6 or 7 still growing)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/29/2004 5:49:47 PM >


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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 1:33:34 AM   
esteban


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I am in late Feb 42 my manpower is 51764 (I used 807 last turn)
my armament production is 4810 (I used 674 last turn)

I built 765 airframes and 1647 engines.
184 Vehicles.

My manpower totals for war to date are 51764 in pool and 365716 used total
Arms 4810 in pool 64070 used total
Vehicles 408 in pool 13014 used total



Mogami:

How many armament/tank factories do you have?

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 4:04:26 AM   
mogami


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186 Vehicle 682 Arms

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 4:33:20 AM   
FirstPappy


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Thanks Tanaka. I'll plan on playing a scenario where the Japs are at their peak. This way, all the production stuff should have alreay been optimized by the scenario designer.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 5:18:39 AM   
esteban


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

186 Vehicle 682 Arms


So you pretty much doubled starting Japanese vehicle production, and increased armaments by about 30%. That seems reasonable. I would probably have boosted vehicle production less, and armaments more. But what you did is not far from what my experience has been.

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 5:44:24 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I have to wait for my Heavy Industry to expand a bit. I don't like to make major changes in many areas at the same time. However my arms appear to me to be keeping up with demand but then I allow it time. When a new unit appears I decide where it is going to go 3 months from then and set the objective. The unit then has 3 months to "grow up"

I try to keep a portion to replace loss as I go. Southern Area HQ is in Malaya currently as I am still fighting for Singapore.
14th and 16th Army have taken Bataan and are recovering for the next step (Java)
The current date is 3/3/42

Allied Army Loss Points 3855
Japanese Army Loss Points 146
Allied Aircraft Points lost 888
Japanese Aircraft Points lost 288
Allied Ships Sunk 136 (FOW)
Points 1461 (FOW)
Japanese ships sunk 16 (Actual)
Points 108

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 7:32:30 AM   
Xargun

 

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Mogami how are you using so much manpower ? Isn't manpower only used - along with armament points - to create weapons or squads ? I just don't understand how I can have 187,000 manpower with 11,000 armament points and 300 vehicle points in my pools.. What am I doing wrong ?

Also, do old weapons get recycled like old aircraft ?

Xargun

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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 8:01:11 AM   
mogami


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Hi Keep over 20k supply in the hex where the units needing replacement are.
There are a lot of units that arrive in Tokyo. If Tokyo has 19,999 supply and the pools are full of arms nothing is issued.

Also units need to be in range of their HQ.

What are your current heavy industry numbers? total Heavy Industry and in pool points. (i'm asking if you have a surplus of heavy industry points being created. I have around 100 extra per day and have 2000 or so in the pool)

My economy will really get better here once I clear the enemy air from Batavia. There is
over 200k oil in Palembang I have not moved because of enemy bombers. I have a few Heavy Industry not producing points because of a lack of oil. (I'm not moving it from one center to another. I'll wait for oil produced to be moved)
Also Hong Kongs HI was badly damaged on capture and has not been repaiired yet. Palembang was about the only center I captured with light damage.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/30/2004 1:08:47 AM >


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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 8:22:22 AM   
mogami


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3-7-42 Manpower 49178 so my pool is going down. (used is now 404167) But last turn I unloaded supply at Manila where the troops that just finished off Bataan have been resting waiting transports.


How do we compare here

Name In Pool/used
Engineers 0/812
Support 159/9064
Motorized support 17/78
Aviation support 22/2161
IJN Cav Sqd 0/14
IJA Inf Sqd 226/2272
IJA Eng Sqd 4/250
SNLF Sqd 117/4174
13mm AAMG 0/160
37mm AT 2958/125
47mm AT 76/3560
81mm mtr 14/691

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/30/2004 1:28:52 AM >


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RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 9:09:59 AM   
esteban


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Mogami how are you using so much manpower ? Isn't manpower only used - along with armament points - to create weapons or squads ? I just don't understand how I can have 187,000 manpower with 11,000 armament points and 300 vehicle points in my pools.. What am I doing wrong ?

Also, do old weapons get recycled like old aircraft ?

Xargun


It would be nice if we had the option not to upgrade some LCUs, so we could extend the use of some of the old weapons stockpiles in units that are in Manchuoko, or garrisoning cities in China.

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Post #: 27
RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 9:36:04 AM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi Keep over 20k supply in the hex where the units needing replacement are.
There are a lot of units that arrive in Tokyo. If Tokyo has 19,999 supply and the pools are full of arms nothing is issued.

Also units need to be in range of their HQ.

What are your current heavy industry numbers? total Heavy Industry and in pool points. (i'm asking if you have a surplus of heavy industry points being created. I have around 100 extra per day and have 2000 or so in the pool)

My economy will really get better here once I clear the enemy air from Batavia. There is
over 200k oil in Palembang I have not moved because of enemy bombers. I have a few Heavy Industry not producing points because of a lack of oil. (I'm not moving it from one center to another. I'll wait for oil produced to be moved)
Also Hong Kongs HI was badly damaged on capture and has not been repaiired yet. Palembang was about the only center I captured with light damage.


I currently have the following:

Industry In Pool / Used

Manpower 189,463 / 161,492
HI 15,620 / 847,142
Armaments 10,905 / 46,220
Vehicles 25 / 10,195

Engineers 7 / 282
Support 127 / 2665
Motor Support 26 / 65
Aviation Sup 24 / 567
IJA Cav 0 / 6
IJA Inf 150 / 558
IJA Eng 12 / 47
SNLF 72 / 1288
13mm AA MG 2 / 82
37mm AT 3134 / 40
47mm AT 53 / 3538
81mm Mortar 40 / 187

I obviously have delivered / built less equipment than you (although I am a month behind) but I have a HUGE armament pool. My HI pool is growing roughly 200 a day. I also have several Armament factories offline right now to conserve HI - I expanded probably about 70% of my armament factories at game start and double or so my vehicle production. I have a lot of tanks in the pool as well as being delivered to my tank regiments.

Xargun

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Post #: 28
RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 10:11:52 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban
Japan starts with a surplus of about 2500 heavy industry per day at the start of the game. Generally, between what you can capture in Rangoon, Singapore, Hong Kong, Changsha, and maybe Yunan, you can get a few hundred more. So that pretty much takes care of the initial expansion. Your air production doesn't so much increase as change, as you move production from some of your transports, and planes like Nates, to models that you need more of, like Kates, Zeroes, some more R&D for certain models, and maybe another Nell/Betty factory. Also, you run out of pilots before planes. You can use an expansion of the Japanese naval shipyards early on as well, but only about 80 points or so, as far as I can tell from my not-to-exacting observation of the yard build list. That only uses about 240 HI points per day.

So there is a fair amount of room for expansion of the existing industry before you hit your first wall, lack of more HI. After the first wall, comes the second wall, of capturing enough resources and oil before your stockpile draws down. After that, comes the third wall, which is being able to produce and ship enough resources to expand your HI further. Then the fourth wall, being able to preserve your resource/industrial base from Allied attack as best as possible.

However, the armaments industry is the single biggest shortfall in the Japanese production system. Japan produces about 6 manpower points for every armament point she starts with. Some of that manpower will be needed for industrial expansion and vehicle production, but I would guess at least 2/3 of it can be used for armaments. Thats where I get the 400% expansion from. I have done a 200%+ expansion so far in the games I have played versus the AI, but I have not played any of those games past mid-1942.

Unfortunately, the disparity between manpower and vehicles and armaments is such that pretty much any manpower points that go into your manpower pool, and are not nearly immediately kitted out with a vehicle or armaments, are just going to sit there for the rest of the war. It would be nice if you could turn off some of the manpower centers, but you can't.

I have done a couple of the 44/45 scenarios as Japan for 6-8 months too, but in those cases, the at-start situation is not conducive to a lot of industrial expansion. By then, most of the fatal mistakes have been made, and it is just a question of being able to hold an island or two or preserve a city or two that couldn't be saved historically.
Here are some figures I got from the May 1942 campaign:

Oil Centers………………..2,750 (16,500 Oil Points)
Resources Centers………16,500 (23,775 Resource Points)
Manpower Centers…………806
Heavy Industry…………13,830

Manpower Centers consume 8,060 Resource Points leaving 15,715

Heavy Industry consumes 13,830 Oil Points and 13,830 Resource Points.
Leaving 1,885 Resource and 2,670 Oil Points to go into reserve.

This is a best case scenario because if anyone of the oil or resource center are damaged it can have a significant effect on output, plus any ships lost to allied submarine action will take their cargo with them. So best case Heavy Industry can be expanded by 1,885 before your industry is begins to feed off of reserves.

Caveat: most Japanese player will make some gains in China which will increase production slightly.

Heavy Industry……..………13,830
Merchant Shipyards……..….-3,000
Naval Shipyards…………....-3,522
Vehicles (90)……………..…..-540
Armaments (501)………..….-3,006
Aircraft Engines (1527/30)…...-916
Aircraft frames (677/30)……..-406

Surplus HI points……………2440

At the start of the war you have approximately 2,500 surplus HI points as you indicated, and once you make the historical conquests the Japanese made you can expand the Heavy Industry by almost 2,000 and break even, if you lose no production to damaged facilities, sub, or whatever. That means at best you will have 4-5 thousand Hi points to spend on expansion. Doubling armaments (501 expansion) eat up 3,006 Heavy Industry points.


I agree that something seems odd with manpower if the rules are correct. I wish the Manpower Centers could be turned off, as they consume resources to produce points that I will never use.


PS. My figures could be wrong. I hope they are wrong as I would very much like to increase production.

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(in reply to esteban)
Post #: 29
RE: Vehicles and armament production - 7/30/2004 11:53:49 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline
Yep, the only thing that I can think of is that you have to find ways to economize. If you can hold down your merchant ship losses, perhaps you can turn off some of your merchant ship yard production. There is not much slack on the naval production list. Perhaps you can argue a case for not completing the Musashi in the age of carrier-dominated combat. But you need all the carriers you can get, and all the destroyers. You probably need all the subs you can get. And Japanese cruisers are most always worth building.

The only ship on the naval list that I definitely think you can pass on is the CL Oyodo. It's not a bad ship, but it has no long lance torpedoes, and those are what makes a Japanese cruiser stand out. However, one CL out of the whole build list is precious little slack.

Well, we must do as best we can, with what we have!!

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)
Post #: 30
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