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Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:02:38 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline 		In my PBEM #15 game as the Japanese, I lingered the PH strike force in the vicinity of Wake-Johnston for about a week, and got lucky by sinking the Lexington as it headed out to reinforce Midway. Bad gamble on my opponent's part. Since then, I've been thinking about the situation from the Allied side. Given the carnage at Pearl, what would be a good strategy for counter-acting the PH strike force if it lingers?

(Of course, running away and hiding is the default strategy for the Allies, but can someone suggest another one? A viable one? Is there any reason for the Jap to fear if the PH strike force lingers?)
Post #: 1
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:06:57 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Send subs to the area around midway. I did that in my PBEM game, to "recon" before sending supplies and reinforcing midway

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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

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Post #: 2
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:15:43 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		As the Allies (Scen 15, AI=Hard) my bassic strategy is

a) Find the main IJN force (recon is important)
b) Attack someplace else.

If the KB goes to the Dutch East Indies, take Wake or Maletop or something. If the KB hangs out around Wake, use transports to grab something obnoxious in the southern part of the map.

Try not to send valuable resources into the dark if you have no clue as to where the enemy main strength lies, however.

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

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Post #: 3
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:32:11 PM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		Don't react to them in '41-'42...make them react to you. You'll get your @$$ handed to you if you try to react to them.

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Post #: 4
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:50:52 PM   
mavraam


Posts: 436
Joined: 5/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

As the Allies (Scen 15, AI=Hard) my bassic strategy is

a) Find the main IJN force (recon is important)
b) Attack someplace else.

If the KB goes to the Dutch East Indies, take Wake or Maletop or something. If the KB hangs out around Wake, use transports to grab something obnoxious in the southern part of the map.

Try not to send valuable resources into the dark if you have no clue as to where the enemy main strength lies, however.


Agreed. My whole early Allied strategy is based on 'hit em where they aint'. Its pointless to directly confront the Jap strength early. Plus, there's no need to stick around and protect Pearl or Midway. If they try to take Pearl, its suicide and if they want Midway, they can have it, for now. IMHO.

My whole late Allied strategy however is based on 'hit em where they are'!

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Post #: 5
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:52:35 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		One of my carrier TFs heads to Wake straight away and smacks the invasion fleet there whether I lose Wake or not. Full Speed and linger maybe 2-3 turns there then run.

The second carrier TF I send towards Kwajalein where there is a bunch of supply traffic that will be building by the time I get there in 3 or 4 turns at full speed. You can catch some of those convoys and eat them up with target practice. An alternative is to send the second carrier TF towards Makin since the IJN will attempt to capture that area quickly.

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Post #: 6
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 7:57:46 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
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quote:

One of my carrier TFs ...

The second carrier TF


I am doing exactly the opposite, ie I am keeping all my CVs in the same hex (in two TFs). See "How much do you concentrate your forces" thread in The War Room

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

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Post #: 7
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:02:44 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		The spread for me helps to hit simultaneously in two separate areas and take out more ships and blunt more attacks...Wake invasion force will be eaten up and so will another TF or two but if I concentrate them in one place only 1 TF gets hit, either at Wake or near Kwajalein/Makin/Tarawa

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Post #: 8
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:12:56 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

One of my carrier TFs heads to Wake straight away and smacks the invasion fleet there whether I lose Wake or not. Full Speed and linger maybe 2-3 turns there then run.

The second carrier TF I send towards Kwajalein where there is a bunch of supply traffic that will be building by the time I get there in 3 or 4 turns at full speed. You can catch some of those convoys and eat them up with target practice. An alternative is to send the second carrier TF towards Makin since the IJN will attempt to capture that area quickly.


Who really cares if you lose Lexington or one of the others? They get VP's, but you get tham all back later as Essex class ships anyway! In one of my allied runs in #15, they nailed the Lexington near Wake for sure, but at the cost of 70 Sys damage on Akagi, and 20-30 Sys Damage on two other carriers! Lucky hits, I guess. I put one major carrier out of action for over six months and two others for two months or more and I will get Lexington back later as an Essex boat!

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Post #: 9
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:16:06 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Its not like I am battling KB, I am just dealing with the other task forces that are attacking in other places.....the original post was about a lingering KB and what do you do. I don't feel a need to attack them right away but taking out a few cruisers, destroyers, APs, AOs, and AKs for no loss is a lot better trade off in my mind versus sending one carrier at six.

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Post #: 10
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:21:40 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline 		But see, my opponent attempted exactly what Tallyman suggested, and that's how he lost the Lexington. Losing carriers certainly isn't the end of the world for the Allies (they built, like, 70 of them) , but each loss SLOWS the counter-attack. It just seems to me that there really isn't any good reason for the US CV's to sortie at all in 12/41-1/42 if the location of KB is unknown. It's too much of a crapshoot.

Ergo, the Jap always wants to keep the location of KB unknown. The Ryujo and the other CVL and LBA can support any SRA/NEI landings. I would tell you where KB is hanging out for me as we turn the corner into January, but I don't know if my opponent reads these forums or not ...

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 11
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:30:04 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, In PBEM the Allied player might as well just assume the Japanese are going to stick around. Send the CV and all at sea TF south. (As well as assuming the CV will hit PH again go whole hog and assume the Japanese are going to move against Rabaul and the South Pacific without aircover. You will have your fun commence around 1 Jan 1942. Get every healthy ship headed there ASAP. Send you PT and subs to where the enemy PH strike force might be sitting for next day.

If Wake holds out one turn 1 you can go there first to sink a few Japanese ships. The IJN CV are at least 2 weeks from Wake and besides that they need to refuel soon. The USN CV will consume all the fuel on their way south but since nothing else will be moving that way for a while there is time to restock the bases that are drained when the first monster supply TF begin arriving from SF at end of Dec.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 12
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:31:17 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		I hear you.....the talk was of lingering near Midway though.....at Wake it takes a little more time to catch the allied carriers from the KB strike on PH. I have a day or two lead and putting them on full speed versus mission speed I can do better since the IJN has a slightly slower full speed on a few of their carriers IIRC. Balls to the wall with one near Wake and one southward.....hit quick and duck out of sight before KB shows up.....thats what I am talking about.

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Post #: 13
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 8:34:50 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, In PBEM the Allied player might as well just assume the Japanese are going to stick around. Send the CV and all at sea TF south.


Agreed - that was my original point. And no one seems to have a convincing argument to the contrary.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 14
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 10:04:45 PM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		If ther was a Pearl Harbor, I pull my Carriers back to PH and escort my wounded to teh big Repair yards on CONUS. this lets me cover them from enemy attacks if KB decides to look for them. It gets teh m out of harms way and allows me to upgrade on the west coast insead of taking supply from PH. By early Jan 42 I can now team them up with the two new carriers and have a real carrier force with plety of escort. US gets Sara and Yorktown Early-Mid Jan. Lots of DD's show up in SF as well. THis will let you move south to OZ or SOPAC in force and with the first MONSTER Supply missions.

I can think of nothing other than a death ride for the US if KB hangs out and you try to counter with anything.


UB

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Post #: 15
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 10:36:04 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		About the only thing you can do if KB hangs around Pearl Harbor is perhaps fly your fighters off of the U.S. carriers, back to Pearl, for turn 2 air cover of PH. Maybe you will shoot down enough Japanese planes to start wearing out KBs air crews.

However, if I am Japanese, with anything other than the strictly historical strikes, I bomb the heck out of PHs airfield by turning the Vals loose on it. The Val's 250 KG bombs will not penetrate either the deck or belt armor of anything on battleship row, and 70-80% of your bombers will go after the U.S. battleships, to the exclusion of the other shipping in the port. So divebombing the port on turn one is largely wasted.

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Post #: 16
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 10:41:43 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban
The Val's 250 KG bombs will not penetrate either the deck or belt armor of anything on battleship row, and 70-80% of your bombers will go after the U.S. battleships, to the exclusion of the other shipping in the port. So divebombing the port on turn one is largely wasted.


Interesting. Now that's useful intel.

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Post #: 17
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 10:47:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

One of my carrier TFs heads to Wake straight away and smacks the invasion fleet there whether I lose Wake or not. Full Speed and linger maybe 2-3 turns there then run.

The second carrier TF I send towards Kwajalein where there is a bunch of supply traffic that will be building by the time I get there in 3 or 4 turns at full speed. You can catch some of those convoys and eat them up with target practice. An alternative is to send the second carrier TF towards Makin since the IJN will attempt to capture that area quickly.


Who really cares if you lose Lexington or one of the others? They get VP's, but you get tham all back later as Essex class ships anyway! In one of my allied runs in #15, they nailed the Lexington near Wake for sure, but at the cost of 70 Sys damage on Akagi, and 20-30 Sys Damage on two other carriers! Lucky hits, I guess. I put one major carrier out of action for over six months and two others for two months or more and I will get Lexington back later as an Essex boat!




< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 7/28/2004 3:48:18 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 10:55:48 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban
The Val's 250 KG bombs will not penetrate either the deck or belt armor of anything on battleship row, and 70-80% of your bombers will go after the U.S. battleships, to the exclusion of the other shipping in the port. So divebombing the port on turn one is largely wasted.


Interesting. Now that's useful intel.


Glad to help out.

If you want to be "gamey", you can land some of your Val squadrons before KB leaves for PH, and replace them with the 2-3 carrier capable Kate squadrons on mainland Japan. You have the political points to do so. You will have high op losses in these Kate squadrons, but if you want to pelt shipping in Pearl Harbor, this is your only way to get some real added "oomph" into your PH strike. Doing this depends on what kind of restrictions you and your opponent have on this kind of thing. Personally, I like to have a house rule against using anything but "carrier trained" planes off of carriers. Otherwise you get stuff that is a little too anamolous, like the "corsairs off of carriers" phenomenom in early 43.

Oh, the Ryujo can also make it to PH, from her starting spot in Palau, but there are a couple allied subs you should watch for on the way. But that is 18 more Kates that can actually crack the armor on those BBs.

The Zuiho and Hosho are too far from PH to get there for the turn one festivities. I have tried that already :)

< Message edited by esteban -- 7/28/2004 8:56:37 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 11:11:52 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

About the only thing you can do if KB hangs around Pearl Harbor is perhaps fly your fighters off of the U.S. carriers, back to Pearl, for turn 2 air cover of PH. Maybe you will shoot down enough Japanese planes to start wearing out KBs air crews.

However, if I am Japanese, with anything other than the strictly historical strikes, I bomb the heck out of PHs airfield by turning the Vals loose on it. The Val's 250 KG bombs will not penetrate either the deck or belt armor of anything on battleship row, and 70-80% of your bombers will go after the U.S. battleships, to the exclusion of the other shipping in the port. So divebombing the port on turn one is largely wasted.


You must be to far away from PH.. Most of my port attacks (range 3) were with 800 kg bombs which will blow through any armor.. In fact both of the ships I sunk at PH (a DD and the Arizona) died from 800 kgers..

Xargun

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Post #: 20
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/28/2004 11:18:00 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

About the only thing you can do if KB hangs around Pearl Harbor is perhaps fly your fighters off of the U.S. carriers, back to Pearl, for turn 2 air cover of PH. Maybe you will shoot down enough Japanese planes to start wearing out KBs air crews.

However, if I am Japanese, with anything other than the strictly historical strikes, I bomb the heck out of PHs airfield by turning the Vals loose on it. The Val's 250 KG bombs will not penetrate either the deck or belt armor of anything on battleship row, and 70-80% of your bombers will go after the U.S. battleships, to the exclusion of the other shipping in the port. So divebombing the port on turn one is largely wasted.


You must be to far away from PH.. Most of my port attacks (range 3) were with 800 kg bombs which will blow through any armor.. In fact both of the ships I sunk at PH (a DD and the Arizona) died from 800 kgers..

Xargun


No, I always attack from range 3 at most, sometimes range 2. I don't want to suffer any more op losses than I have too.

The Vals don't drop 800 KG bombs, the Kates do. Vals still drop 250 KG bombs. In fact, in WiTP, there doesn't seem to be a difference between their normal and extended range bomb loads. Both loads are a single 250 KG bomb.

Oh, how I miss my little 60 KG trash busters!!

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Post #: 21
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 10:17:25 AM   
brisd


Posts: 614
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		I am playing my first scenario 15 as Japan vs AI (hard) and I tried hanging around Hawaii for a few extra days. I thought I had my CV aircraft properly balanced for attacks vs port/airfield and naval targets plus a generous CAP setting. I hadn't had a great PH strike, no BB's sunk according to intel, I was on my fourth day (I hung around an extra day as I was under a storm the day before that cancelled my aircraft) and suddenly after my strike on PH I get a message about TF1 reacting to carriers and vice versa for AI. That afternoon a full strike of SBD's and a dozen Buffalos attack KB and of course, ZERO CAP show up. Soryu takes three 1000 pounders, Kaga 1, Hiryu 2 and luckily Akagi's bounced off its belt armor. KB strike is 12 Vals unescorted, all misses vs the Lady Lex TF. Next turn I see Soryu aflame, in serious trouble, Kaga and Hiryu both damaged and afire but operational. I got my revenge, sinking Lex and damaging most of her escorts with a 100+ strike next day. Soryu may not make it. So be careful of your strike settings and hanging around PH too long. I'd trade carrier for carrier any day as the Allies.

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Post #: 22
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 10:30:43 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		As the USN be careful about tampering around with Kwajalean or getting within 8 hexes of that base. IN PBEM game there could be several hundred Betty/Nell there with A6M2 escort by the 3rd day. As Japan closing the back door is something I take care of ASAP.
There are 2 Nell groups (54 ac) in Home Islands that belong to SOuthern Area Army. While Kwajalean is not assigned to that HQ these groups can move with out PP cost. They can reach Kwajalean on day 1. It takes 2 days to get a A6M2 group there. (Both groups already in Kwajalean Area are A5M so before they upgrade and spend the time repairing I send a A6M 2 group there. It moves on to Rabaul after that base has fallen)
The net result is any USN CV getting within 8 hexes (escort range ) will be atacked by 3 Daitai at least of Nell with A6M2 escort.
Just save yourself the grief and "stay off my property" There is nothing there worth the risk.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 23
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 3:29:13 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2493
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From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
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quote:

As the USN be careful about tampering around with Kwajalean or getting within 8 hexes of that base. IN PBEM game there could be several hundred Betty/Nell there with A6M2 escort by the 3rd day. As Japan closing the back door is something I take care of ASAP.


I went to Kwajalein in late DEC 41 (vs AI Historical) with all 4 US carriers and blew the hell outta of it along with catching several BB's, CA's and tons of transport shipping. It was PH in reverse!!!

With 4 carriers to provide CAP they can hold their own!

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Post #: 24
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 3:47:05 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		I just took out both allied cvs in turn 3 of two different pbems because they used them right, and then changed their minds.

2 important points no one has raised.

1. As the allies, at pearl, you can pound on the wake invasion on turn 2 - knowing you're safe. There are escape routes west north and south from KB - you can loose them if you need to in a few turns so get your hits in now and save those wildcats at wake from extinction.

2. If the japs LINGER around PM, the allied cvs shouldn't linger. For starters, they are going to be between KB and that nice fat group of 8-10 tankers full of replenishment fuel for KB. That is a fat target that will burn nicely. They have an unbeatable headstart for a charge across the southern tip of the SRA that betties and nells that early in the game won't be able to contest (LOTS of japs transports down there, not to mention the Ryujo and 2 cs ships all alone). Usually by turn 7 this is a bad idea, but early on you've got tired betty/nell pilots, all the nells upgraded to betties last turn and are all now "damaged" as a result, and best of all, if you do get sunk not only do you get your cvs back later, but you have taken some sting out of the jap advance.

Going head to head with KB, or even hanging around the area as the allies is going to end badly. Hit wake, and then go any direction but east.

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Post #: 25
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 5:22:17 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, In PBEM the Allied player might as well just assume the Japanese are going to stick around. Send the CV and all at sea TF south. (As well as assuming the CV will hit PH again go whole hog and assume the Japanese are going to move against Rabaul and the South Pacific without aircover. You will have your fun commence around 1 Jan 1942. Get every healthy ship headed there ASAP. Send you PT and subs to where the enemy PH strike force might be sitting for next day.


This is part of the recipe for generating the Japanese AI "Rabaul Death Spiral" of Jan 42.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 26
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 6:43:15 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

quote:

As the USN be careful about tampering around with Kwajalean or getting within 8 hexes of that base. IN PBEM game there could be several hundred Betty/Nell there with A6M2 escort by the 3rd day. As Japan closing the back door is something I take care of ASAP.


I went to Kwajalein in late DEC 41 (vs AI Historical) with all 4 US carriers and blew the hell outta of it along with catching several BB's, CA's and tons of transport shipping. It was PH in reverse!!!

With 4 carriers to provide CAP they can hold their own!



I can't wait for the AAR from PBEM (how did you get 4 USN CV by late Dec 41?)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/29/2004 11:44:38 AM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 27
RE: Counter-acting the Japanese Lingering Strategy - 7/29/2004 6:50:47 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Probably with the very varible setting.

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Post #: 28
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