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US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 12:44:14 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I set up a test using the tutorial

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/13/44


Day Air attack on TF at 72,68


Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 34


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 5 destroyed, 27 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 3
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
8 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
8 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,68


Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 34


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 2 destroyed, 22 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
8 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,68


Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 23


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,68


Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 36


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 19 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
5 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet


Screenshots to follow stay tuned.

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 12:46:57 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Don't you love the tutorial for setting up test?

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(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 12:49:23 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Haruna

Cant get the picture to show in my post you can see it just fine if you click on the attachment.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fallschirmjager -- 7/28/2004 5:53:21 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 12:52:35 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Kongo

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 12:54:42 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Nagato

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:08:32 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/17/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day Air attack on TF at 72,68


Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 129


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 4 destroyed, 38 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 24, on fire
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 12, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
6 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
8 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet



More screenshots coming

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Post #: 6
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:12:10 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Yamato

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:13:50 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Musashi

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:15:33 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Comments anyone?

I smacked the living hell out of these ships and they are all still afloat with very little damage. The fire seems to indicate I am dropping incindiaries on them
Anyone think this is too little damage?
Too much?
Just right?

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Post #: 9
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:17:42 AM   
hithere

 

Posts: 432
Joined: 4/13/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		UNLEASH THE HOUNDS!!!!

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Post #: 10
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:20:25 AM   
mongo


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		It's definitely a change from old PacWar. 1000 pounders were the great ship killers then.

I guess we'll have to look up the historical ship-killing scenarios and the deck armor stats.

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:31:50 AM   
Moquia


Posts: 174
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Its '44. Didn't the allies have AP bombs now?

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Post #: 12
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:40:15 AM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		I'm sure you have FOG turned off correct??

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Post #: 13
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:41:03 AM   
doomonyou

 

Posts: 144
Joined: 6/26/2002
Status: offline 		I would say that a GP 1000 would do between 2-5 sys with 0 flooding and 1-3 fire points per hit up to a maximum of 50% sys (representing the explosives local penetrations of the deck armor but failure to get deep in the ship and wreck the hell out of it).

But certainly a dozen straight hits from 1000 lb GP would work over a BB pretty well, probably wiping out most of its AA capability possibly damaging mail turrets, causing fires on the top decks where those penetrations occur as well as structural shock damage to support members and such.

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Post #: 14
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:42:00 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		They probably need that armour to stand up to the uber-PT boats Hehe, in all seriousness though, here is what the Yamato and Musashi took to sink them according to Conways Fighting Ships...

"Musashi took between 10-19 torps and 17 bombs whilst Yamato took 9-13 torps and 6 bombs. Their armour was designed to give immunity against a 1t bomb dropped from 15,000 feet and 18" shells out to 22,000-33,000 yards. "

My take is that it seems these bombs are trashing the guns and the upper decks, but not penetrating the around to do damage inside (system damage - thus slowing speed). Looking at the info above for the Yamato and Musashi at least this damage probably sounds close to right (I would have thought 5-10 system) as it was the torps that sunk them, but i dont know much about the other ships.

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/28/2004 11:45:05 PM >

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 1:58:48 AM   
Jaws_slith


Posts: 615
Joined: 1/11/2002
Status: offline 		Totally agree on this one. 24 hits on the Yamato convinced me 100%. I like to see the BB with 24000 lbs exploding on his deck with only 4% system damage and still dry feet

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Post #: 16
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 2:29:13 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Not nearly enough sys damage and there ought to be more flot damage. Enough bomb hits along side will cause flooding damage and more flooding will be required to put out fires and to counterflood.

As an added note Conways did not list "what it took" to sink Yamato and Musashi. Only that which hit Yamato and Musashi. Yamato was doomed by the second bomb to strike her... a 1000 pounder that started an uncontrollable fire in a secondary magazine that was designed not sufficiently isolated from her mains. She had another uncontrollable fire aft that was the source of the underwater detonation. She also turned turtle from torpedo hits. She was, in essence, sunk three times: once by a single bomb forward, once by multiple hits aft, and a third time by torps. The torps put her underwater before the inevitable magazine explosions could occur.

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Post #: 17
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 2:42:24 AM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		On near misses, many jap ships had incidents with severe damage from near misses - they had flaws in armor production and design.

The Chitose, for example, was badly damaged by a near miss, caused by plates warping and breaking welds and bolts.

It is said in post mortem analysis ( I forget the book) that the Yamato and Musashi likley suffered crippling near miss damage to its hull.

------------------

The world's navies all saw value in near hull misses - water does not compress and the exposive displacement results in an overpressure 'bubble' that is rather large and packing a lot of force that magnifies greatly the force on the hull.

Makes sense - torpedoes are not armor piercing, and they only hit at 30-50 knots, and they were one of the most feared naval weapons in all of history - the problem with bombs is that it is hard enough to get a hit, let alone plan a near miss.

But, they dropped a lot of bombs around Y and M, and so did you - I agree, the damage seems low.

< Message edited by Wilhammer -- 7/28/2004 7:44:01 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 2:48:56 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, conways book states that these ships were sunk by th above hits. It also states that the ships were designed to take a hit from a 1000lb bomb dropped from 15,000 feet.

Im not saying that this isnt wrong, but I wouldnt like to see the penetration figures screwed with lightly as overall the game feels about right. I would guess the combat is based on details such as explosive content, warhaed type, armor, etc and thus its not easy just to change the values of a 1000lb bomb without effecting other weapons (providing they are indeed not powerful enough)

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/29/2004 1:04:29 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 2:58:25 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		The problem I see is that the Kongo class started out as Battle Crusiers and had some armor added. But, 9 1000lb bomb hits failed to penetrate the deck armor. Even with the Yamato, some of the 1000 lb bombs actually dropped on her penetrated the deck armor.

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Post #: 20
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 3:51:00 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Japanese 250 KG bombs won't penetrate the armor on American BBs either. I have done several PH raids, and I know.

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Post #: 21
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 4:14:35 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi,

What was the Sys damage on those ships once the fires had run their course?

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 22
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 4:21:57 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Thats a good point...especially is the Yamato did go down due to a fire. Do fires ever have a chance of causing a magazine explosion?

Dawg

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:00:00 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi,

What was the Sys damage on those ships once the fires had run their course?

Regards,

- Erik


Between 20-50
Fires did alot of damage but thats more due to piss poor Japanese damage control.

I hit the Yamato 24 times...she should be at the bottom.
There wasnt a single point of float damage on any of the ships I hit. Their should be some light structral damage from each of the 1000lb hits that causes cracks that let in some seawater. As it stands now you can hit a BB 1000 times and she will never sink.

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:02:06 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Ohh...I have a question...if the bomb splinters arnt going through metal...just what am I setting on fire?
45 fire indicates a major fire engulfing a very large part of the ship. But if I havnt hit ammo or fuel then what is on fire?

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:14:14 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Not sure I see the problem here ... 1000 lb bomb has a penetration value of 70 ... it's going up against 120 deck armor + You will notice when you watch the actual battle that your bombs are exploding on impact, not going through the armor. This causes damage to non-turret guns and causes fires.

Fires continue to add damage until put out ... heres your test:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 26
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:21:55 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		What is being set on fire then? Bare metal melting? What?
3 sys damage and 40 fire damage just confuses me. If the fire is buring on the suface of the armor then just what is getting damaged?
3 sys damage to me means no cracks, no bent structural pieces and no warped plates. In other words armor is still covering everything vital and protecting it from fire damage.

I dont have near the refernece material that some others have. I posted this in hopes of getting info to what sort of damage 1000lb bombs did to BB's in WW2.

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RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:29:08 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Im guessing that part of the problem here might be that consecutive bomb hits might not be taken into consideration. From what Ive read a single bomb would probably have little chance of damaging the Yamato at all, yet with 24 hits surely these would be impacting in the same locations 2 and maybe times which would, youd think, have to cause the structure in those areas to weakened somewhat and thus more vulnerable each time?

This might also explain with the US battleship seem to be harder to sink on the first turn than they were historically. Just a thought ?

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/29/2004 3:40:49 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:30:35 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Don't look at sys that way ...

Sys is simply the overall measurement of the ship.

100% SYS = 0% function

Floatation and Fire are special types of damage that last and can grown. While they exist at any level, more and more sys damage gets added, further reducing ship function.

A non-penatrating hit still does damage, but not critical damage (massive jumps in SYS).

Look at the Bismarck as a good example of a ship being completely rendered useless but still floating.

Just because a bomb does not go through the armor doing extra damage does not mean it doesn't cause damage. It still hurts you, just not a massive leap such as a magazine hit (Hood)

Both Fire and Flood can suffer massive increases in levels. As long as there is even 1 point, there is the risk of loosing the ship.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 29
RE: US 1000lb GP bomb test - 7/29/2004 5:31:26 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		In case anyone is wanting to replicate the exact test that I did here is how to do it:

Set up the tutorial as a head to head game.
Make sure FOW is off.

Let the first turn run and keep all subs away for the area you are going to test in. For 2 sufarce combat groups. Put the Haruna, Kongo and Nagato is one TF and sail it several hexes east of Saipan. Put the Yamato and Musashi in another TF and leave it around Guam until you need it again. MAKE SURE you put both of their reaction ranges to 0, otherwise they will react away from the carriers or into the carriers...both are bad. Put both on do not retire.
End the turn.

Form two US CV fleets putting three CV's in one TF and 2 in the other.
I hit the 3 BB's with the 2 CV TF and the Super Heavies with the 3 CV...you can use whatever.
Sail one or the other to within range of the first BB TF.

Put all Helldivers on Naval Attack with 0% search, set them to attack from 20,000 feet. Put all Torpedo Bombers on Naval Search with 10% search. This is very important because otherwise you wont find the BB's. DO NOT use 100% of otherwise you run the risk of having your torpedo bombers spotting the BB's and making an attack and thus ruining your test. I found this out the hard way.
Make sure your CV TF is within 1000 lb range. I put them two hexes away from the BB's.

Run the turn and watch what happens. Interchange out the TF's and run it again.
Big thanks to Kid for the turtorial scenario. Its a huge help in testing.

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