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Minefield problems... - 1/25/2002 1:59:00 PM   
Lost Lieutenant

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!

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Post #: 1
- 1/25/2002 5:55:00 PM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Lost Lieutenant:
I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!
Morning.
Well for starters the vehicals act just like engineers, they find minefields then they have to sit in the field to remove the mines. Some have them facing the minefield to clear it. So in other words you attack will slow down abit to wait for minefields paths to be cleared. Or use heavy artilliary on one hex for about three to four turns depending on many are cleared during each barrage.
Good luck and have fun.


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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 2
- 1/25/2002 9:16:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Does anyone know for certain what they claim on minefield clearance? I ask this, because I've yet to see an engineer clear mines in more then one hex at a time (or mineclearing tanks). My observation has been that engineers only clear the hex they're pointing at (and i have had mine-clearing tanks work too), though I haven't tested that deliberately, just observation. Even if it does clear more than one type of hex, albeit the hex they are in and the one they're pointing at, I'm thinking they will only clear the hex they're pointing at first, then the one they're in. I wonder if people are getting the infantry and engineer roles mixed up in this? IF engineers are clearing more than one hex at a time, that certainly isn't right. Is there any rule documentation to suggest they clear more than one hex at a time? FWIW I believe mine-clearing tanks work as I believe engineers do, in that they won't clear mines in their own hex, but only in the hex they're facing. What's been reported here that the mine clearing isn't happening, and that he goes through the hex fine, indicates attempts at clearing the same hex (unless he doesn't give it enough time etc) which as I'm thinking will never work with engineers or mine-clearers.

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Post #: 3
- 1/25/2002 9:33:00 PM   
Resisti


Posts: 1351
Joined: 1/22/2001
From: Livorno, Italy
Status: offline 		Charles-22, guess you're wrong on this. Engineers and eng tanks canclear mines both in the same hes they are OR (not at the same time,therefore) in adjacent hex which they are facing to (this is true also for DEPLOYING mines).
"Normal" infantry units can clear mines,too, at a lower pace, but MUST be in the SAME hex with mines.

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Post #: 4
- 1/25/2002 10:40:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Resisti: I would like to assume that you're correct, only the fact that engineers "don't" make mines in their own hex (at least as of V6.1) would leave me to question that.

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Post #: 5
- 1/25/2002 11:07:00 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Resisti is right. I have an engineer in a mined hex in a game I am currently playing and it's clearing mines quite nicely. Another in an adjacent hex to another mined hex is doing so as well. The surprise is that the surviving crew of a now-dead AC is clearing the minefield it's sitting on as well -- I knew regular rifle squads did this, but I didn't know a crew unit would.

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Post #: 6
- 1/25/2002 11:12:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Challenge: Crews clearing? Yes, I've seen that and posted it too, but I don't know if anyone believed me. I believe scouts (although for the two-man units it's fairly rare) will do it too, but it seems snipers will not.

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Post #: 7
- 1/25/2002 11:35:00 PM   
Resisti


Posts: 1351
Joined: 1/22/2001
From: Livorno, Italy
Status: offline 		Page 85 of the manual: "Only infantry, mine clearing tanks, and combat engineers can remove mines. Engineers may be
in an adjacent hex and facing the mined hex to do so, while Infantry must be in the mine hex to
clear it. Mine removal is automatic at the end of the turn." Page 90: "Now, face your Engineers towards the mine,
or on them, and they will remove them in time. You can also “stack” more than one engineer
squad on one hex to clear the mines faster." We must therefore assume that any infantry class unit can remove mines; at which pace, that's another story...

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Federico "Resisti" Doveri

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Post #: 8
- 1/26/2002 1:30:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		HA! this is kind of funny, because while the quote in the manual might lead you to believe that crews will not clear them, I have another unit which is very surprising and definitely doesn't make any sense. That is, and I've mentioned it before on the forum, that the SKI TROOPS will not clear mines!!! A rude surprise for a Finnish force no doubt.

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Post #: 9
- 1/30/2002 12:38:00 PM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Lost Lieutenant:
I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!
There is, indeed, a trick to assault mineclearing. First, you must indentify the field exists. That requires moving infantry, Recon, or Engineers forward *first*. lay smoke to cover your approach, and fine the mines. Once you find them, you start clearing. Move up engineers and right click to point them at the mines you need cleared (one hex can be worked by a given engineer squad/mine tank at a time). Using the smoke for concealment, move your leading infantry, SLOWLY, one hex ata time, forward into the field. When they are in a hex with mines, that engineeers are working from adjacent, they will ALSO clear mines in that hex. I prefer to move one infantry platoon forward as a skirmish line, right behind my recon, to enter the minefield and, one hex at a time, advance through it. The following infantry moves into the field and is supported by Engineers behind it. IN one battle vs. the AI, I infintrated a full platoon forward of the mines and started clearing a series of entrenchements (under cover of smoke and with supporting artillery and mortar fire) while following infantry and engineers clear the field at the rate of one hex every other turn. V-man

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Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

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Post #: 10
- 1/30/2002 2:05:00 PM   
K G von Martinez

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: Hannover, Germany
Status: offline 		Does it really make any difference if I run in a minefield one hex at a time or faster?

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Post #: 11
- 1/30/2002 2:20:00 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by kgvm:
Does it really make any difference if I run in a minefield one hex at a time or faster?
Yes, it does. Move slowly, live longer. Bing

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Post #: 12
- 1/30/2002 10:44:00 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I makes a difference in the number of casualties in a squad, and I get about 50% of my recon ACs through them without a problem. The other 50% are, however, useless scrap. The remaining crews, however, are able to get through with about 20% losses.

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Challenge

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Post #: 13
- 1/30/2002 11:43:00 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Mines under the versions since the later beta 7.0 have become a lot more interesting than before. Lots of times leg troops, armored cars and upon occasion a tank will go right thru a mined hex and nothing will happen, I will not even know the hex is mined. Then, semeingly at random, the third or fourth unit to traverse the hex WHAMMO!!! If you have the time, get engrs out in front of your advance, have them move one hex at a time, they will almost always detect mines without setting them off. Otherwise, buy cheap vehicles and run them ahead of your advance. Unfair? Well, anything is fair in love ... and war. Bing

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"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 14
- 1/31/2002 1:25:00 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		V-man: Sound tactics, I use about the same. (recon, smoke, engineers and infantry) But are you suggesting to clear the ENTIRE width of the minefield? OK, I'm splitting hairs here, but I usually clear two or three paths through it, one hex wide each. Quicker I'd say?

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Post #: 15
- 1/31/2002 2:57:00 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		The problem I see with the one-hex-wide path is a bottleneck. Yes you can move through a spred out on the other side, but what's the opposition doing. With the AI it isn't much of an issue, but a human p[layer will pulverize that hex with everything available -- Art, AT, HE, MG, etc, ad nausium. It costs more to move through an occupied hex so it slows you down. With a three- or four-hex opening, you can push through with less resistance. [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]



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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

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Post #: 16
- 1/31/2002 4:32:00 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke. The premier minefield eradicators that I've identified are the flame-throwing vehicles. A unit like the JA Engineer tank or Flammwagen/16 can clear a minefield hex (10 mines) in one or two shots. This is great because then the hex is cleared of mines, marked and all your units are covered by the resulting 'smoke' as they move through.

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Post #: 17
- 1/31/2002 4:42:00 AM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Pixel:
Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke. The premier minefield eradicators that I've identified are the flame-throwing vehicles. A unit like the JA Engineer tank or Flammwagen/16 can clear a minefield hex (10 mines) in one or two shots. This is great because then the hex is cleared of mines, marked and all your units are covered by the resulting 'smoke' as they move through.
Afternoon.
It works the same way for artilliary except it takes three to four turns to do. Then while you are hitting it you can move your troops up to a resonable distance from the mine field. I also find the AI and some people have units sitting next to the mine field, which the shells do a nice job of removing.

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

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Post #: 18
- 2/1/2002 4:42:00 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
V-man: Sound tactics, I use about the same. (recon, smoke, engineers and infantry) But are you suggesting to clear the ENTIRE width of the minefield? OK, I'm splitting hairs here, but I usually clear two or three paths through it, one hex wide each. Quicker I'd say?
I usually choose three points to breach the field, but while I create a single hex path at first, I then expand it to about three hexes so I can really move troops through. I can count on the enemy figuring out where I am at some point, and having those extra hexes sometimes allows me to get through despite arty. V-man

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"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

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Post #: 19
- 2/1/2002 4:47:00 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Pixel:
Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke.
The arty does do ONE thing very well. It uncovers the mines. Even tanks will see them before driving into the field. V-man

_____________________________

"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 20
- 2/1/2002 4:55:00 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Don Doom:
I also find the AI and some people have units sitting next to the mine field, which the shells do a nice job of removing.
Perhaps, but not having your troops in a position to observe anyone coming through is a good way to neutralise your own obstacles. Mines *must* be covered with fires, either pre-planned arty or direct fires, otherwise the field can be cleared with ease. Since you don't seem to be one to place troops near your minefields, I'd *love* to have to assault you. My infantry are only in danger from your arty and tank fire, and I can use smoke to make your arty miss, counterbattery your arty, and suppress/destroy your tanks with my own.

It takes infantry to guarantee stopping infantry or engineers from clearing a minefield. V-man

_____________________________

"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

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Post #: 21
- 2/1/2002 4:58:00 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Bing:
Mines under the versions since the later beta 7.0 have become a lot more interesting than before. Lots of times leg troops, armored cars and upon occasion a tank will go right thru a mined hex and nothing will happen, I will not even know the hex is mined. Then, semeingly at random, the third or fourth unit to traverse the hex WHAMMO!!! Bing
This is because of minefield density. If there are only ten mines in a hex, and the hexes *are* 50 meters across, that is a thin density. If the field is 50 mines, then there is an average of one mine for every 5 meters straight forward you walk - a far greater density. V-man

_____________________________

"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 22
- 2/1/2002 5:01:00 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Challenge:
The problem I see with the one-hex-wide path is a bottleneck. Yes you can move through a spred out on the other side, but what's the opposition doing. With the AI it isn't much of an issue, but a human p[layer will pulverize that hex with everything available -- Art, AT, HE, MG, etc, ad nausium. It costs more to move through an occupied hex so it slows you down. With a three- or four-hex opening, you can push through with less resistance. [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]
And if you screw up your smoke screen or run out of smoke ammo, even the AI can figure out that he ought to shoot at you.

_____________________________

"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 23
More mine-clearing thoughts... - 5/21/2003 11:21:58 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Greetings all. First post, but have loved SPWaW (in its many incarnations) for years now. Glad to finally find this forum, no prior acces to playing partners. Therefore: AI Ace, PBeM novice.

RE: Types of units and ability to clear

As posted above, Infantry can only clear mines if they're IN the mined hex. Engineers can clear mines if they're adjacent to any mined hex.

Engineers also always spot mined hexes if they move into them, Infantry may not (if they don't detonate one while walking through it). Both types have the ability to spot minefields if they luckily happen to end a turn in a hex adjacent to a mine field (as can Recon units, and perhaps other types - anyone able to confirm?). I think that the Engineers have a better chance however of actually spotting the mines as well as removing.

Supression effects mine removal effectiveness. In my experience, an Engineer squad unobserved/unsupressed can clear mines more effectively than one under direct/indirect fire (which is realistic). And contemporary docterine dictates that you always have observers at your obstacle plans and cover them with either direct or indirect fires. Does anyone have any figures to either support or disprove this theory?

RE: Mine-clearing vehicles

I think mine-clearing tanks/ploughs operate in a removal fashion similar to that of Engineers. Namely, if they're adjacent to the field, and stationary (facing the field) for a turn, they begin to clear the hex. It has not however been my experience that they should be driven into mined hexes! They also have the secondary benefits of being able to withstand heavier hits from the front (because of dozer blades, etc.) and those listed in a thread prior.

RE: Using artillery in and around minefields

I have the made a few observations. First off, heavy artillery is useful as an "accidental" detection method. Often, when shelling suspected positions as a prelude to an assault, I'll notice that the impact of my shells detonates the enemy's mines. That I appreciate, I'll keep the Engineers loaded until I'm within a couple of hexes of the newly discovered field, drop them, pop smoke. I'll then immediatly re-fire my barrage (adjusting slightly if necessary) with WP/smoke instead of HE. Once screened, I'll move the dismounted Engineers up to the field (and probe around) to begin the removal process with the vehicles in overwatch.

I wouldn't recommend heavy artillery as a method for clearing minefields. It's not terribly reliable, and creates craters, which lower your movement rates when passing through them. Flame tanks are much better at rapidly clearing a path that you can then hastily advance through and exploit. Just don't stop in a burning hex, does bad things to your supression ;). If your opponent has any experience, he'll have the field covered by some type of observation and fire. The trick is to quickly clear the obstacle and assault through.

RE: My favorite use of mines/obstacles

Choke points, especially bridges, especially against the AI. A ring of dragon's teeth and mines after a choke point bottle-necks the enemy forces. Great spot for a pre-plot. Bridges are best because you can put one dragon's tooth at the bridge "exit" to pile up vehicles on the bridge. Then you take the Engineers with satchel charge or a 150+ mm direct fire weapon and target the bridge hex. Any/all vehicles/troops on that hex will be destroyed as the bridge collapses.

Any input on effectove use of mine-clearing tanks would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 24
- 5/22/2003 8:06:44 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		Charles mentions seeing crews clearing mines, and I've seen MC units doing it also. I suspect that any "leg" unit, or pseudo-leg unit (like MC's and bicycle toops) will do it.

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Post #: 25
- 5/22/2003 10:00:47 AM   
RobertS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/4/2002
Status: offline 		The minenrams are not detecting and clearing mines, because they're not minenrams. You have to edit that particular scenario, switch over to the Czech OOB and change the unit. Right now, they're just paper tigers.

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Post #: 26
- 5/22/2003 7:21:20 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Berine:
quote:

Charles mentions seeing crews clearing mines, and I've seen MC units doing it also. I suspect that any "leg" unit, or pseudo-leg unit (like MC's and bicycle toops) will do it.


I think you're correct there, though the notable exception of what I typically classify as leg unit, though it sort of is not (though they certainly aren't mobilized in the common sense of the term) is the ski units. I haven't ever tried ski units of another country, but the GE ones sure won't do it.

(in reply to Lost Lieutenant)
Post #: 27
- 5/22/2003 9:42:06 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		In the Stalingrad campaign I set up one of the battles with a platoon of engineers clearing mines behind the lines. The AI makes a very large attack anfd the player has to choose whether to stop the mine removal and bring up the engineers or continue the mine clearing. The German armor is behind the mines so they will not get up to the battle without taking losses unless the engineers finish clearing the mines. The VO's are points per turn so the player has to balance the loss of points versus the loss of men and tanks.:D :D

The more experience an engineer unit has the faster it removes the mines. Once mines are identified the following infantry can circumvent the mined hexes and move forward rapidly under smoke cover. Using the mineramen to run parrallel to the front will quickly identify the paths through the field. NO one puts mines in every hex unless it is a Sevastopol or Kursk scenario:D

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Post #: 28
- 5/23/2003 12:16:15 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Brent, I thought that if an Engineer was in a mined hex, others could safely pass through that hex.:confused:

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Post #: 29
- 5/23/2003 12:55:08 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		If you click on a unit it will indicate the path and the hexes with mines in them are darkened. If you pass into a hex with engineers and mines you still may get hit. It is assumed that the engineers are in the process of identifying and removing the mines and until the hex no longer has the mine symbol it is active.

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