Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

Yes, Nate Groups are set to upgrade Oscar, Tony, or Tojo. A player isn't given the option of which Nate groups upgrades to Tonys. It is fixed regardless of production, the military situation or the players choice.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

All you can do in the editor is tell one air unit or aircraft type specifically what the next upgrade step (aircraft type) will be. You cannot set an upgrade path of "any fighter", etc.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
According to list I got yesterday (friend gave it to me - he got it from either here or from Spooky'a) the Ki-27 "Nate" can only upgrate to Ki-43-IIa "Oscar" and that's last update (please look at table below):


Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army


Are you saying that this table is inaccurate and that some Ki-27 "Nate" upgrate to KI-61 KA1c "Tony" or Ki-44 IIb "Tojo"?


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...

Early in the beta, that was the only choice. However a field was added to the air unit's database entries that (if containing a value) will force the air unit to upgrade to a different upgrade path than that which would have been derived from its current a/c type.

This possibly also answers the question you asked Culiacan Mexico.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Much as I would like to have more flexibility if I accept that we are not going to get it is there an acceptable compromise whereby and extra dozen or so Oscar 2 gps get an additional upgrade option to Franks or Tojos so that if a player produces enough of these types he can populate the gps.

Is that the work around that would be acceptable to the Japanese players.

As a mostly Allied player I detect its late war japanese fighters that are the majorproblem.

ANdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
I did miss one thing however; When patch 1.2 came out the readme did not list the OOB changes. Does someone have a list of OOB changes in the patch?
I had thought Kid said he was going to list them so i looked under his recent posts and did not see this.
Can anyone help?

Either email or just point me in the right direction.

Michael
lysimachus@charter.net

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

Just as a curiosity thing: How do you know that, Spooky?

Steve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

I believe a big design mistake has been done with this hard-coded plane upgrade model - justified for a 1.5 year long operational strategy game such as UV but not for a 5 years long global strategy game such as WITP.

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"

The point is that we do not want any fixed upgrade path. Since we can decide all the aspects of plane production, we want to be able to decide with which planes a Japanese squadron is going to be upgraded - with of course some limits : IJN -> IJN, IJA -> IJA, fighter -> fighers ...) - like in GG's BTR !

What you propose is an useful work-around - but unfortunately still a work-around

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.
Now I can finish this and get it to Spooky.

Don't end your site Spooky-wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
It distorts the game historically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
As a player you know the capabilities of each aircraft and can decide well in advance which will be best suited for you needs… this is based on data based on hindsight. The Japanese didn’t know in January of 1942 how good the Frank was going to be, yet the player does. There were reasons why the Japanese continued to field Oscars throughout the war… political, military, economic, etc… free upgrade paths ignores these restraints. One can see these restrains when one looks at how changing leaders or moving unit from restricted commands works.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.

Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.

quote:

Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.