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RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:34:57 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Fair enough. Or at least provide a concise summary of what the thing is supposed to allow one to do. I should shut up. I'm NOT opposed to Mg3 getting the feature that he wants. I guess I'm reacting mostly out of fear that Matrix can't afford to respond to every call for tinkering (which isn't my call to make anyhow) and in defense of, can you believe it, Frag.

Stick around MG3. Every squeaky wheel gets to be heard.

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Post #: 361
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:36:04 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, that about sums it up. The designers gave them tools to just that, but only about half-way. And that's the crux of the problem.


No, the designers did not. People are using the tools provided in a manner they were not intended to be used in.

*That* is the crux of the problem. Just because someone happens to have figured out an exploit in the system doesn't make it right. I do not use this as a deliberate slight at anyone who has figured out that they can skip aircraft, but it was certainly never intended that *that* be a choice.

History lesson:

Original code, no r&d was damaged at start

testers took this and abused it to produce aircraft *way* too early.

Code changed ... all starting R&D damaged.

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... R&D repairs more expensive

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... repair of R&D slowed down to not repair every day

game released. people immediately jump on the lets do what the testers did that they tried to block 3 separate times.

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Post #: 362
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:39:00 PM   
vonmoltke


Posts: 182
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Bloomfield, NJ
Status: offline 		Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?

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Post #: 363
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:41:11 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		From Mr. Frag

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.

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Post #: 364
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:43:07 PM   
vonmoltke


Posts: 182
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Bloomfield, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

From Mr. Frag

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?

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Post #: 365
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:46:36 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?


To be able to get some aircraft earlier and actually be able to get them before the game is over because of the large number of requests by players for aircraft that really were not seen. It was not meant to completely replace aircraft types with other choices which is why if you look at the Aircraft Reinforcements, you'll see some of each type available.

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Post #: 366
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:54:30 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?


If the code was changed to allow player to pick aircraft, it should be trapped to the date of the availability of said aircraft.

ie: doing the A8M so it comes in before the A6M5 by r&d'ing to hell and back should result in no net gain UNTIL the A6M5 is available ... then I would have no problem at all with it because you still did the R&D required to get to the A8M ... my problem is the proposed pick anything without that *R&D* check and balance.

I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

I don't like fixed, said it enough times already, but I also don't want japan being the first man on the moon by gaming the system. If you can't see where I am coming from, perhaps we simply need to let the USA start the game with Corsairs and make the point clear of how silly it is.

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Post #: 367
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 8:56:32 PM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		I feel a lot a love in this room.

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Post #: 368
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:00:02 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

No, not because of one troll who already got reported by me.


/sigh....

Didn't mommy tell you it's not nice to be a tattle-tale?

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Post #: 369
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:04:42 PM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?


To be able to get some aircraft earlier and actually be able to get them before the game is over because of the large number of requests by players for aircraft that really were not seen. It was not meant to completely replace aircraft types with other choices which is why if you look at the Aircraft Reinforcements, you'll see some of each type available.


So you get them earlier, but can't equip squadrons with them due to upgrade paths....

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Post #: 370
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:07:53 PM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?


If the code was changed to allow player to pick aircraft, it should be trapped to the date of the availability of said aircraft.

ie: doing the A8M so it comes in before the A6M5 by r&d'ing to hell and back should result in no net gain UNTIL the A6M5 is available ... then I would have no problem at all with it because you still did the R&D required to get to the A8M ... my problem is the proposed pick anything without that *R&D* check and balance.

I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

I don't like fixed, said it enough times already, but I also don't want japan being the first man on the moon by gaming the system. If you can't see where I am coming from, perhaps we simply need to let the USA start the game with Corsairs and make the point clear of how silly it is.


Well, I think I finally understand Mr.Frag's point (nothing to do with his ability to explain - but rather my limited understanding of aircraft production/research in the game)

However, I don't get the impression that anyone is asking for the ability to research the top level aircraft without first researching the earlier one's. If that's possible then the fixed upgrade path will, I guess, ensure's you can't benefit from it.. It seems to me that's a side effect of a curious game design though.

It's just a question of being forced to upgrade a squadron with what was done historically, rather than with whatever we may have available in our pool at the time. However, if I understand correctly, to do this AND ensure we can't 'cheat' to get aircraft into squadrons, you'd need to redesign the research aspect too..

And I'm not overly optimistic that will be done.

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Post #: 371
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:09:01 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Reiryc,

Is that all, can I go now? Thanks for the lecture. Maybe you should read the posts from the MG3 again. And then look at his location in his profile.

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Post #: 372
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:13:10 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

Is it thread locking time already?


if it isn't, its damn close

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Post #: 373
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:17:30 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Relax. I'm the guy who's supposed to be offended and I'm not. I've been called worse things than a "know it all" and sometimes my accusers have been correct. And I think that the discussion has revealed what prod was supposed to do, what people have done with it, and arguments for and against doing what people have done with it. So light has been generated along with the heat and noise.

Besides.

How often do you get to see me and Frag agree on something? Worth the price of admission I think.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 8/6/2004 7:19:20 PM >

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Post #: 374
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:19:34 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Reiryc,

Is that all, can I go now? Thanks for the lecture. Maybe you should read the posts from the MG3 again. And then look at his location in his profile.


Did already...

Hopefully the lecture will take, but somehow I doubt it.

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Post #: 375
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:22:02 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

So you get them earlier, but can't equip squadrons with them due to upgrade paths....


yes, and thats part of the problem ...

To properly do this, you need to completely remove Japan's OOB for aircraft and simply give them x number of pilots in a pool that can be used to form groups with *any* aircraft that happen to be available.

The pilots would show up from pilot schools that were run similar to industry. Each class graduating would have a skill of x and contain y pilots. Each month a new class would start and train pilots at 5% a month.

You would look at the pilot classes running and choose *when* to graduate the class based on the skill it had reached balanced against the need for pilots *now*.

These pilots would then be used to form your groups instead of the *fixed* OOB. This would be the *ONLY* source for pilots in the game. You would have the tough choice of using them as replacements or forming new groups.

R&D would run completely separately, covering off aircraft in the historical order they were done with perhaps a separate IJA/INJ split. The actual dates would be somewhat obscured as in reality they should *not* be known in advance.

Production would be able to produce any aircraft that had been successfully R&D'd. Retooling would be based on the type of changeover required (a simple factor for aircraft type).

That was my view of how to make the system, but as you can see, it is a whole pile of new coding.

It addresses Pilots, Aircraft and R&D which really are all interlinked together.

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 376
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:22:54 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

How often do you get to see me and Frag agree on something? Worth the price of admission I think.


Thats twice now in recorded history.

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Post #: 377
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:24:59 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?


I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

With all do respect, that ain't gonna happen. Everything on the subject of research says that the best you can hope for is to advance production by a couple months. The Frank will arrive normally in Aug 44. The Oscar will arrive 20 months earlier in Jan 43. If I can advance the Frank by 20 months, research is *bigtime* broken and needs to be fixed. About the most likely scenario I see for that would be the Geroge and Frank, but that is still 8 months.

Edited to add: In any case, I'd rather it not be in the game anyway.

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 8/6/2004 7:27:18 PM >

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Post #: 378
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:26:41 PM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		C'mon, lets all go down the pub and get pissed.

My team lost tonight, and I'm in the mood for a few beers!!!!

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Post #: 379
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:27:22 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MG3

Just given up the game.

Maybe some emule users will be happy about the game, since I am not worthy to play it. The would be community surly make everything possible to piss of their customers. First rip offs and scams while buying, then youre being told to be a sissy child wargamer because you critizise some of the features.


Wow this thread moves fast You go away for an hour or two and there's already a boycott being organised

Frankly, this is by no means a game breaking issue, no matter how you slice it. It may be one wrong design decision but is really by no means crucial.

On the contrary, the very fact that we discuss something *this* small or detailed or insignificant proves:

a) we all got nothing better to do
b) WITP is very near perfect, because if THIS is a deal breaker for some people, then... geez... I mean... well you can guess what I mean

Oleg

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RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:32:17 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Reiryc,

You do not even know me, nor have you, until today, directed a post or question at me. Make assumptions all you want, about what will and will not stick, but instead of talking to me as a man, you have to communicate in a condescending tone. You should ask yourself why some using the report abuse link that was put there for a reason, would affect you enough to post a message to someone in a condescending tone.

This thread is 13 pages, and most of it, is a great discussion about aircraft reasearch and production topic. I reported two posts because they were nothing but personal attacks and had nothing to do with this thread. That is what the report abuse link is for.

If you got an issue with me, send me a PM.

< Message edited by SunDevil -- 8/6/2004 11:33:27 AM >

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Post #: 381
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:34:21 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

1. Filter the available-to-research planes by a date. Not perfect, because ideally a plane would become available because its predecessor was in production. Designing and defining a precedence list would be far more work and code than we will get. A simple date filter would be easy to do.

2. Edit the upgrade paths to allow more/most/all Nate groups to upgrade Nate-Oscar II-Frank. Or set some to go to the Tony or Tojo. I'm sure plenty of folk have the research materials to set this up reasonably.


Thats exactly what I said in different words

quote:

If you want to go add an additional upgrade path to the Oscar and change all the starting R&D factories to size 0's, you have removed research from the game and dealt with the #1 complaint of Oscars not upgrading. That can all be accomplished without a single piece of code work.


It does not need 2BY3 to do, thats what they gave you an editor for ... Zeroing all the starting R&D is simple, adding an upgrade path for the Oscar is simple.



Well, while at least some of us are beginning to morph into a sort of concensus on this issue, I'm wondering, however, how many players see ability to use the resource system "loophole" as a major source of entertainment and a large part of why they play the game. Bascially all the BTR fans that were looking forward to those types of things being in this game as well? I have to admit, my first impulse when seeing that Allied production was fixed, especially for aircraft, with no chance to bring an F8F or a P-80 into the game, was....dissappointment. But for me, nowhere near a show-stopper. I get the impression it is, though, for some.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/6/2004 7:35:30 PM >

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Post #: 382
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:39:54 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		This thing is snowballing way out of control. This issue is frustrating, but it is by no means a game breaking issue.

I too can agree with Mr. Frag. You should only get a plane if the previous one is available. On that, I wholeheartedly agree. I also feel that, once you have that plane, you should be able to use it in as many or as few squadrons as you like, providing of course you have planes and spares.

As an Allied player, I would not want to see my Hellcats suddenly met by a mob of Shindens and A8Ms. However, in 1945, I wouldn't mind seeing how some of My P-51s handled some (note SOME) Shindens or Franks or what not.

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Post #: 383
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:40:35 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:


*That* is the crux of the problem. Just because someone happens to have figured out an exploit in the system doesn't make it right. I do not use this as a deliberate slight at anyone who has figured out that they can skip aircraft, but it was certainly never intended that *that* be a choice.


Well, the problem 2X3 and Matrix have got now is a considerable body of players that find that exploit to be the single most entertaining part the game or at least a VERY entertaining part of the game. I think it's kind of fun myself.....but won't lose sleep if the exploit is closed...I still have the editor....

Thanks for the history lesson, BTW...

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 384
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:41:42 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 385
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:44:49 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Roger Mr. Frag, thanks for the tip.

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Post #: 386
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:45:01 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
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From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.

You might want to black out a few more areas from there, like your address, e-mail, and phone. Up to you I suppose.

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Post #: 387
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:47:10 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		He probably gets lonely up there in the woods, probably does not mind people stopping by and arguing with him about aspects of the game.

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Post #: 388
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:47:39 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

From Mr. Frag

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.


I have to admit, that has always been a top priority for me in games like this because I find managing so many different kinds of things a pain and a detractor of game enjoyment. In PACWAR the first thing I did was convert almost everything to a P40, then a P38G, J, then P47 and/or P51B or D. Japan got all A6M series, G4M series and one Ki series fighter, if I could manage it. I even used the old PACWAR editer to remove a big swath of odd ball early stuff because it was all just a pain in the butt to deal with (and I wanted space for my P-80's...) And did the same for Brits. Playing Germany in Euro theater games, I always boil down their tanks to one or two types by mid-game if I can and get every German fighter in the air to an ME-262..... It's just the way I like to play these games.

(in reply to SunDevil_MatrixForum)
Post #: 389
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:48:02 PM   
barbarrossa


Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.

You might want to black out a few more areas from there, like your address, e-mail, and phone. Up to you I suppose.


Too late, I just ordered him a pizza

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Post #: 390
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