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RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:50:32 PM   
Mr.Frag


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From: Purgatory
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quote:

You might want to black out a few more areas from there, like your address, e-mail, and phone. Up to you I suppose.


Mail bombs?

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 391
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:51:45 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Relax. I'm the guy who's supposed to be offended and I'm not. I've been called worse things than a "know it all" and sometimes my accusers have been correct. And I think that the discussion has revealed what prod was supposed to do, what people have done with it, and arguments for and against doing what people have done with it. So light has been generated along with the heat and noise.

Besides.

How often do you get to see me and Frag agree on something? Worth the price of admission I think.


Hell, he's even got ME agreeing with him....at least I THINK I agree with him....as much as he seems to want to think I still really don't......

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 392
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:51:51 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Too late, I just ordered him a pizza


Cool! Free Dinner! Better be here in 30 minutes or it's free

(in reply to barbarrossa)
Post #: 393
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:53:11 PM   
barbarrossa


Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Too late, I just ordered him a pizza


Cool! Free Dinner! Better be here in 30 minutes or it's free




_____________________________

"It take a brave soldier to be a coward in the Red Army" -- Uncle Joe

"Is it you or I that commands 9th Army, My Fuhrer?" -- Model

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 394
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:54:42 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.

You might want to black out a few more areas from there, like your address, e-mail, and phone. Up to you I suppose.


Too late, I just ordered him a pizza

Not much of a friend, are you? I started to order him a hooker, but all I could find was some place called "Moose for Hire".

(in reply to barbarrossa)
Post #: 395
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:56:52 PM   
barbarrossa


Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.

You might want to black out a few more areas from there, like your address, e-mail, and phone. Up to you I suppose.


Too late, I just ordered him a pizza

Not much of a friend, are you? I started to order him a hooker, but all I could find was some place called "Moose for Hire".




G'day, eh? Take off eh?

_____________________________

"It take a brave soldier to be a coward in the Red Army" -- Uncle Joe

"Is it you or I that commands 9th Army, My Fuhrer?" -- Model

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 396
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:57:23 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.





"Apache Tr" near Toronto, Canada??? Were there Apache's in Canada at some time???? Street names are pretty comical at times...

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 397
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:58:11 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
Just found some reference to something called "The Mounties"? Maybe they'll help me find an appropriate establishment...

(in reply to barbarrossa)
Post #: 398
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 9:59:18 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

but all I could find was some place called "Moose for Hire".


Thats actually funny to me, I lived in Fairfax, VA for a while.

You yanks have cute little deers that cause some minor damage to cars.

We have moose that write trucks off completely! People actually die up here from Moose hits

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 399
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:03:16 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

but all I could find was some place called "Moose for Hire".


Thats actually funny to me, I lived in Fairfax, VA for a while.

You yanks have cute little deers that cause some minor damage to cars.

We have moose that write trucks off completely! People actually die up here from Moose hits


We have moose down here too. They only have two legs, though.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 400
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:04:26 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

but all I could find was some place called "Moose for Hire".


Thats actually funny to me, I lived in Fairfax, VA for a while.

You yanks have cute little deers that cause some minor damage to cars.

We have moose that write trucks off completely! People actually die up here from Moose hits


We have moose down here too. They only have two legs, though.


I went on a blind date once with one of those....

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 401
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:06:39 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

I went on a blind date once with one of those....


Ok, I'm not going there because if I do, you'll turn around and say btw, she's my wife now!

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 402
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:10:14 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

We have moose down here too. They only have two legs, though.


I went on a blind date once with one of those....


Those big racks will get ya everytime........

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 403
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:14:19 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
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From: Tempe, AZ
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and thus ends the discussion and debate on aircraft production and research...........

Thank you everyone for coming, please exit in an orderly manner, and please drive home safely. Goodnight.

_____________________________

There is no chance, no destiny, no fate, that can circumvent or hinder or control the firm resolve of a determined soul.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 404
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:16:01 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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quote:

and please drive home safely.


Watch out for the Moose!

(in reply to SunDevil_MatrixForum)
Post #: 405
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:38:48 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ignore him SD, he's the same guy who said i put up with all of you for a free copy of WitP. It never would cross his mind that I do this because I wanted the game to be better and I like helping people.

Funny how there seems to be my order attached.




Yes yes, ignore me... I don't tow the party line and believe in Saint Frag...

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 406
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:45:34 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
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quote:


To properly do this, you need to completely remove Japan's OOB for aircraft and simply give them x number of pilots in a pool that can be used to form groups with *any* aircraft that happen to be available.


I disagre that's what needs to be done.

The whole argument boils down to being able to equip atleast a good portion of the 34 army groups with a better plane than the oscar 2 such as the frank/tojo/tony etc. Just adding an extra upgrade to the end of the path shouldn't require any significant changes. Whether a player has the necessary amount of equipment to actually upgrade is something wholly different and not relevant.

_____________________________


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Post #: 407
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:47:05 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

Just adding an extra upgrade to the end of the path shouldn't require any significant changes.


It doesn't, already been pointed up multiple times. The question is to *what*?

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 408
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:50:44 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
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From: Froggy Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Wow this thread moves fast You go away for an hour or two and there's already a boycott being organised

Frankly, this is by no means a game breaking issue, no matter how you slice it. It may be one wrong design decision but is really by no means crucial.

On the contrary, the very fact that we discuss something *this* small or detailed or insignificant proves:

a) we all got nothing better to do
b) WITP is very near perfect, because if THIS is a deal breaker for some people, then... geez... I mean... well you can guess what I mean

Oleg


For you Oleg, it is not a game breaking issue since, IIRC, you are not interested by the production aspect of the war ... and a lot of true grognards think like you.

However, for me and for many other players, production, squadrons management (and even R&D) are some of the most interesting aspects of a war economy - especially for a "challenger" country like Japan in WITP. So I would have liked a much more flexible production & upgrade management system instead of the existing one ... and the BTR system designed by Gary was quite close to what I was expecting.

According to some posts, it seems however that the only way to deal with these limits will be with the Editor - and if we are not pleased, ... well, too bad for us

If it is confirmed by Matrix & 2by3 then as a wargamer, I am going to be disappointed - and as a customer, I will next time wait for the forum reactions before buying a new Matrix game - I do not want to be disappointed again ...

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 409
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:50:47 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Reiryc,

You do not even know me, nor have you, until today, directed a post or question at me. Make assumptions all you want, about what will and will not stick, but instead of talking to me as a man, you have to communicate in a condescending tone. You should ask yourself why some using the report abuse link that was put there for a reason, would affect you enough to post a message to someone in a condescending tone.

This thread is 13 pages, and most of it, is a great discussion about aircraft reasearch and production topic. I reported two posts because they were nothing but personal attacks and had nothing to do with this thread. That is what the report abuse link is for.

If you got an issue with me, send me a PM.


Since you posted this publicly, I will do the same.

I could care less about you personally. I object to your being a tattle-tale on someone because they got a little heated in the debate. The object of mg3's affection didn't even mind it too much, so why should anyone else?

_____________________________


(in reply to SunDevil_MatrixForum)
Post #: 410
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:52:53 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Just adding an extra upgrade to the end of the path shouldn't require any significant changes.


It doesn't, already been pointed up multiple times. The question is to *what*?


Well out of 34 squadrons, I'm sure breaking it down into maybe 1/3 parts, tony/frank/tojo or whatever would probably sit fine with most. If not, I'm sure some kind of historically reasonable solution would be fine.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 411
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 10:59:16 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Well out of 34 squadrons, I'm sure breaking it down into maybe 1/3 parts, tony/frank/tojo or whatever would probably sit fine with most. If not, I'm sure some kind of historically reasonable solution would be fine.


Ok, to do the 1/3 requires 3 separate Oscars, of which 1/3 of the Nates point to each one even though it is the same plane.

Each of the Oscars being identical would have a different upgrade path as it's next step.

Easy enough fix. Eats up 2 slots.

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 412
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/6/2004 11:45:52 PM   
Sultanofsham

 

Posts: 728
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I guess you just don't see how they are linked. I am not using research as a reason to not do this. I am pointing out that your are choosing to *ignore* research *too* do it which can not be simply done based on the way the game was designed.


Bull, yes you are using it as a reason not to do it. The research IS the same as it is now and you havnt been harping about it. Your using it as a strawman. If you really gave a damn about how evil research is in its current incarnation you would have been banging the drum on it long before this.

If you have a problem with research then try and get it fixed, quit using it as a reason to torpedo people from picking what aircraft is used by what group. People are asking for a toggle switch like the sub switches so that the people who want to use it can and people who dont do not have to. You'll never have to deal with it if you dont want to so what is your problem???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If you want to go add an additional upgrade path to the Oscar and change all the starting R&D factories to size 0's, you have removed research from the game and dealt with the #1 complaint of Oscars not upgrading. That can all be accomplished without a single piece of code work.


You still cant downgrade a groups aircraft. You still cant pick something thats not on that path (or can you stick any and all army fighters in a path for an army group). Still wouldnt be able to downgrade in any case.


This
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
It is simply a memory location with a value stored in it ... I thought you were a coder. Write a TSR that sits on top of WitP and lets people change their aircraft at whim to anything.

If you want to get really fancy, you can even have it subtract and add the right numbers to the pool. Should take about an hour.


Now this:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
A pick list to select aircraft + changing the entire way the OOB happens to be represented to not be aircraft specific is a huge recoding effort.


Ummmm ok

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 413
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 12:05:40 AM   
Warspite**

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Very interesting Warspite; I was hoping to see something like this here. What is your source?


Francillion, R. (1988). Japanese aircraft of the pacific war. Naval Institute Press. Annapolis, Maryland.

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 414
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 12:13:41 AM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
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From: Mars
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Really, making the Tojo the upgrade would accomplish both the Tojo and the Frank, since the Tojo upgrades to the Frank. However, the Tojo and Tony both arrive in 8/42 before the Oscar II does in 1/43. Before it even entered production, it would be obsoleted. In the absence of in type upgrades being implemented by Matrix, I think I would set the upgrade path for the Oscars to Franks and be done with it.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 415
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 12:18:36 AM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
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Status: offline
OhhhKayyy...

I'm a prospective customer, not yet an actual one. I DO frequent the boards for whatever game I'm thinking of buying, it tends to save hassle - things like "You need such-and-such a fix for that PC" or "You can do so-and-so in the game which you shouldn't be able to do", or of course "You can't do this-and-that which you should be able to do"...

One of the major 'pulls' for me for a game with a scope like this is the grand-strategic level decisions concerning production, research etc. (I'd also love to be able to choose who I go to war with, but that's outside the scope of WitP.)

I'm now totally confused by this thread, so I'll try to say what I think is the state of play.

It seems that the Japanese player can research aircraft 'out of order' (which he shouldn't be able to do), but also that he can't deploy aircraft that he produces as he sees fit (which he should be able to do).

One solution is, of course, to ignore it and play as the Allies. Not an optimal solution...

Another would be for 2BY3 to allow full open ended deployment of whatever aircraft are available, but to close off the research option altogether so the aircraft were only available 'on time'. I actually wouldn't have a problem with that.

Best would seem to be to fix the research so you had to go through the stages (prerequisites), so you could force research, but at cost, and ALSO to allow the player to deploy as needed. It seems preposterous to me to expect anyone - even the game designers - to know what is required at all times during the 4 or so years of the war.

Finally, of course, there's the option of removing R&D and production altogether, instead forcing both introduction of new types and production to be set at game start. This option removes an awful lot of the prospective fun for me, and creates the same problem - non-historical game positions not being reflected in the production figurres.

Now for the Allies this last one is fine, as it's extremely unlikely that the Japanese could affect production centres. As I understand it, that's the way it's handled in the game. For the Japanese it's an entirely different matter, and will penalise a player who plays better than historically, unfairly benefit one who does worse, but always hamper a player who does something 'different' - either by forcing him to pay unnecessary attention to where exactly some units are, rather than simply sending the relevant aircraft where they're needed, or by forcing him to use sub-standard aircraft when better (or perhaps better stated as 'more relevant') ones are available.

Does this summary seem reasonable?

Steve

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Sultanofsham)
Post #: 416
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 12:47:01 AM   
Warspite**

 

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From: CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

No, the designers did not. People are using the tools provided in a manner they were not intended to be used in.

*That* is the crux of the problem. Just because someone happens to have figured out an exploit in the system doesn't make it right. I do not use this as a deliberate slight at anyone who has figured out that they can skip aircraft, but it was certainly never intended that *that* be a choice.

History lesson:

Original code, no r&d was damaged at start

testers took this and abused it to produce aircraft *way* too early.

Code changed ... all starting R&D damaged.

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... R&D repairs more expensive

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... repair of R&D slowed down to not repair every day

game released. people immediately jump on the lets do what the testers did that they tried to block 3 separate times.


I don't really care about R&D that is not what this thread was suppose to be about. You could take out R&D if it would make you happy (though if you do, I want the Japanese planes when they actually went into production not the pushed back dates that the game uses to make R&D harder and therefore slightly more historical). This thread is about production, so for example assuming there is no R&D, the Frank should start production in April 1944 like it did historically. In April I start producing them, assuming I have been doing better than history (subs aren't sinking hundreds of my merchent ships, and bombers from China aren't plastering my factories) I can produce more of them. Great I have more of them, but now I still can't use them beyond what the games groups, which are fewer than the Japanese actually managed to convert over, and I'm supposedly doing better than they were. That's wrong I don't care how you spin it. If that still doesn't make you happy, fine take out production, but I want all the Sentai the Japanese had using their historical aircraft, which if I haven't stated it yet, is more than the game allows for. This gives me a nice combination of a lot of Franks Sentai and a few Hayabusas for Kamikazi attacks.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 417
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 1:20:40 AM   
MadDawg

 

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Firstly, let me say that I have very little interest at all (actually no interest) in resaerching aircraft earlier than they should have been, so this issue is purely about equiping my units with fighters and bombers of better quility in the pool delivered by the standard production means. That being said, the below is my main concern...is it possible that this could happen and is there anything that can be done about the below situation?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

What I want to fix is this:

It is late '44 and I am losing badly, Saipan just fell and B-29's have begun destroying Japan. A couple of CV battles in 42 sent the pre-war American CV's to the bottom. I reached PM and was able to capture and damage Auckland, though I had to retreat. I held Guadalcanal til early March 43. Oz was cut off for almost 6 months. Oil and resources from the SRA have sustained the economy, but those supplies no longer come. Steel sharks of the US navy tear apart our merchants and litter the seabed with the oil and ores that would otherwise feed the economy. All is lost and there is nothing left to fight to the bitter end.

The juggernaut that is the United States has produced and produced and produced and is simply grinding us to dust. In the 6 month reprieve that I have gotten, I managed to produce an extra 1800 aircraft, mostly late model fighters. Over 1000 Oscar's are still in service, despite the fact that I have better aircraft to replace them.

Why? Cuz someone thinks that Saipan fell 6 months ago.


Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 8/6/2004 11:26:23 PM >

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 418
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 1:57:08 AM   
vonmoltke


Posts: 182
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Bloomfield, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ok, to do the 1/3 requires 3 separate Oscars, of which 1/3 of the Nates point to each one even though it is the same plane.

Each of the Oscars being identical would have a different upgrade path as it's next step.

Easy enough fix. Eats up 2 slots.

I like this idea.

My suggestion would be to have three different Nates, and tweak the upgrades as such:

X number of Nates upgrade to the Ki-43-Ib, which currently goes up the Tony path.

Y number of Nates upgrade to the Ki-43IIa, which is currently a terminal upgrade but which would be put into the Frank upgrade path

Z number of Nates upgrade to the Tojo, which is currently in the Frank upgrade path but would become a terminal upgrade.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Warspite**)
Post #: 419
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/7/2004 2:14:18 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
I had typed up a long post, but lost it so I will not even try to retype it.

Simple form is I will now only play Lemurs Scenario 26 found on Spooky's site until the upgrade is either changed or all production is ripped out.

(in reply to vonmoltke)
Post #: 420
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