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Committing The Guard?

 
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Committing The Guard? - 3/19/2004 10:54:07 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		As the French and during battles will there be a button to select when to commit the Guard? I believe the board game allowed this, I have not played in years and the game is boxed up in storage.

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Capt. Cliff
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RE: Committing The Guard? - 3/20/2004 3:51:15 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Yes you can!

There will actually be two buttons, one for a level 1 shift and one for a level two shift!

Thank you

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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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RE: Committing The Guard? - 3/20/2004 5:59:41 PM   
donkuchi19


Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		If I remember correctly, only the French and Russians could make a two level shift. Is this correct and is it correctly implemented in the game?

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 3/22/2004 1:48:14 PM   
ardilla


Posts: 399
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Castellon, Spain
Status: offline 		Yes, only Russians and Frenchs guard factors (more than one factor) are able to commit with +2 level of moral, with one point they will attempt only +1.

Spanish and British are not allowed to commit and Turkish neither, since they do not have guard points....

Regards.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 4/9/2004 7:02:08 AM   
donkuchi19


Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Just a bump because no one answered the question about French and Russian Guards being the only ones able to use the level 2 shift.

Anyone know?

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Post #: 5
RE: Committing The Guard? - 4/9/2004 1:48:37 PM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Ardilla's comments above your last inquiry are correct. We have to assume at this point that they will be implemented correctly but I have not heard otherwise.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 4/12/2004 11:54:11 PM   
Black Hat

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 9/24/2002
Status: offline 		If I remember correctly,

French +1 or +2 20gd/3cav Factors
Russian +1 or +2 12gd/2cav
Prussian +1 only 8gd/1cav
Austrian +1 only 5gd/1cav, But they have TWO "guard" Units

UK and Espania have 2gd factors in thier I corp

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/21/2004 10:59:39 PM   
ktotwf

 

Posts: 182
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		I am interested in this. Could someone better explain what "Committing the Guard" does, and how large of an effect this has on a battle?

How often does this usually happen?

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Post #: 8
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/21/2004 11:20:26 PM   
eg0master

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Commiting the guard means a few extra (0-2 for +1 or 1-4 for +2) guard factors are lost but instead you get a +1 or +2 morale "modifier".

Depending on what strategies where choosen for the field combat a +1 morale shift means something like 0.2-0.5 extra morale loss. +2 means 0.5-1.0 (approximatly). This extra morale loss can ensure victory. If victory is not certain and the opponent does not break, the side comitting the guard breaks if the comitment fail to bring the player to victory.

So this is not used often. My experience is that it is used to ensure victory the same day (to avoid an other day of combat) when the opponent is close to break. And often players don't like to loose their guards "this easy" and rather save them for later to improve overall morale. So only in important field battles, possible where you are the waeker part and had a lucky break choosing strategy (and you don't want another day of battle).

So what can it be? I have seen guards commited maybe once every 2 or 3 years in the game. BUT the possibility is checked in EVERY battle including guards.

Hope you feel a little more educated by that...

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24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/21/2004 11:33:53 PM   
ktotwf

 

Posts: 182
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Status: offline 		So you automatically lose the Guard points? Can you build them like normal units?

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/22/2004 12:23:37 AM   
Roads

 

Posts: 180
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From: massachusetts
Status: offline 		yes. But they cost more.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/22/2004 1:08:14 AM   
eg0master

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Well it is not 100% you lose guards if you do a +1 shift (33% you don't I think it is), but yes, statistically you lose a few guard factors and they cost more to build and take longer to build.

And they increase your morale since they have the highest morale of all units (5) where infantry typically have 3 (4 for france and 4.5 for britain).

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24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 6:55:00 AM   
Madcombinepilot


Posts: 52
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From: Saskatoon, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

My experience is that it is used to ensure victory the same day (to avoid an other day of combat) when the opponent is close to break.


Or you guards are used for the exact opposit. You will often see a Guard committal when you KNOW that your army is going to break, and it improves your chances of breaking you opponents army as well thus avoiding the situation where you lose politcal points. In tabletop EIA, I commit the guards in about 1/2 my battles where they are present -- Austrans with 2 guard corps can burn through those guys at an alarming rate---

The game is all about converting money and manpower into politcal points (hence victory points) by any means possible.

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 1:45:44 PM   
Pippin


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quote:

And they increase your morale since they have the highest morale of all units (5) where infantry typically have 3 (4 for france and 4.5 for britain).


Maybe it's just the way I play, but I noticed the increased moral with guards is almost barely noticable even in small stacks. Note: I am not talking about commiting the guard here either.

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Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 4:14:04 PM   
ardilla


Posts: 399
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Castellon, Spain
Status: offline 		Well Pippin, if you are used to play with FR or GB maybe not....but with other countries I can tell you it does a lot the guard!!!

You can simulate with Spain, Austria, Prussia and Russia!!!

It is a big deal since most of the battles are won by morale or at least drawn.

IMO and experience in the game.

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Santiago y cierra España!!!

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 9:14:44 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

quote:

And they increase your morale since they have the highest morale of all units (5) where infantry typically have 3 (4 for france and 4.5 for britain).


Maybe it's just the way I play, but I noticed the increased moral with guards is almost barely noticable even in small stacks. Note: I am not talking about commiting the guard here either.


There is a big difference between an Austrian or Prussian corps with and without guard factors. Yes, to GB with inf at 4.5 moral the difference is minimal, but when your inf starts at 3 you need every fractional increase you can get to keep your troops fighting in a long battle.

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 16
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 9:34:20 PM   
ktotwf

 

Posts: 182
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		So, does having the guard automatically give you a morale bonus, and then Committing them actually gives you a much bigger bonus?

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/23/2004 10:24:47 PM   
carnifex


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Status: offline 		having the guard in your force raises your overall morale, since guard troops usually have the highest morale

comitting them means you increase the damage you do during combat

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/25/2004 11:27:39 PM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		I often commit the guard when playing. I always look at the battle table and see if a shift on the morale column will insure a break or if a descent roll will if I should commit the guard. Also, on rounds I know I am going to break, I have also commited the guard hoping to break my enemy too.

EiA battle table is a cross index. On one side of the index is five rows for "casualties". On the other side is five rows for "morale". If a fight starts on the 2-3 table, you go to row number 2 on the casualty side and row number 3 on the moral side. Attacks are rolled on a d6 and can result from -1 to +7. Now, imagoine you are the Russian fighting the Turk and all you face are fudal corps, which all have a 2.0 morale. You choose Assualt and the Turk choose Outflank. The first day of battle you fight on the 2-3 table as the russian, while the Turk fights on the 2-1. Looking at the 2-3, you notice that you will do 2.0 morale damage to the turk if you roll a five or better. However, the 2-5 table does 2.1 morale dage on a THREE or better on a d6. Often, the turk has big numbers, and to make matters worse, if he successfully outflanks you, he will roll on the 4-4 table for the next two days of battle and you will be on the 3-1 table. If this occurs and you roll average, you will loose the fight and face pursuit by a lot of fudal cav. Knowing this, you may opt to commit the guard for a two colum shift on the first day, risking the battle in an all or nothing gambit. If you roll well, great, but if you fail you will be torn up by cav pursuit...on the other hand, since you auto break, you do not have to face those two days on the 4-4 table!

Guard commitment can be done for lots of reasons. In the above example, if the outflanking force had very little or no cav, commiting the guard is an even better gamble as it guarentees you will save 8 to 15 factors (or more as troops used to outflank are doubled in number for figuring casualties suffered!) in troops should you be outflanked. One of the very real weaknesses of the Brits, Spanish and Turk is they cannot commit guard, a fact that has haunted me many times playing the Brits.

yamma

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 12:20:50 AM   
Ozie

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 9/3/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Marshall

How is committing the guard and every other order given in the middle of the turn handeled in multi-player?

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Post #: 20
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 5:15:37 AM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Pretty simple:

For PBEM them computer is handling guard commit, casualty selection, etc for the non-phasing player at this point!
Hot seat is easy ... you will each have buttons to perform the guard commitment.

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Ozie)
Post #: 21
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 1:43:16 PM   
ardilla


Posts: 399
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Castellon, Spain
Status: offline 		Sorry Marshall, I dont understand very well the way it will work out PBEM.
About what your explained with the Guard committing....

Could you explain easily how will be handle a complete turn with a battle in a PBEM without economic phase?
1)Movement
2)Calculation of $ for food and foraging.
3)Select chit and guard commitment?!?!?! But this should be a decition in the middle of the battle....not at the beggining....
4)Finish and send the final turn to all players and the answer for battle to the defender??

Thank you very mucho

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Santiago y cierra España!!!

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Post #: 22
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 2:05:00 PM   
Ozie

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 9/3/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Pretty simple:

For PBEM them computer is handling guard commit, casualty selection, etc for the non-phasing player at this point!
Hot seat is easy ... you will each have buttons to perform the guard commitment.

Thank you


But since there are very diffrent kinds of attitudes of using guards is there any way to influence the computer decisions?

For example player A might want to use guards almost in every battle while player B uses them very sparingly. Is computer going to use both of these players guard units in similiar fasion or do the players get a say how their precious guards should be used?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 23
RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 4:57:57 PM   
ardilla


Posts: 399
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Castellon, Spain
Status: offline 		Good question Ozie, that is what I was trying to find out.

Because, I usually use the guards when doesnt matter what it is the result of the other player next roll is going to break me or when I find out than after next roll we probably will be drawn unless I have a chance to win the battle with the commit.

It is complicated, because it is a "real time" battle decision...and not a "random" computer decision, depends a lot of how is going the battle after 1 and mostly 2 rounds of battle!!!!

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Santiago y cierra España!!!

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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/26/2004 9:08:39 PM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		There is a dangerous trick with the guard in pbem board games. Some playes commit the guard in some negative combination of chits (v.g.: Escalated assault vs. extended line) in the first combat turn for end the combat soon to avoid suffer too much losses. In the first turn the guard losses are very little or none. I don´t like this trick, because it´s unhistorical, nobody commited the guard in the start of the battle, this maneouver was the coup de grace of the enemy army, not a screen to withdraw, this was the role of the light cavalry and infantery

If the dessigners forbid the use of the guard in the first combat turn, avoid easy this trick


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RE: Committing The Guard? - 7/27/2004 5:59:03 AM   
Titi

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Montréal
Status: offline
quote:

There is a dangerous trick with the guard in pbem board games. Some playes commit the guard in some negative combination of chits (v.g.: Escalated assault vs. extended line) in the first combat turn for end the combat soon to avoid suffer too much losses. In the first turn the guard losses are very little or none. I don´t like this trick, because it´s unhistorical, nobody commited the guard in the start of the battle, this maneouver was the coup de grace of the enemy army, not a screen to withdraw, this was the role of the light cavalry and infantery


In fact it's in fine the power of a leader seeing that the day is lost. Trying by one way or another to stop the killing of your army as early as possible and hoping having better luck (or strategy ) next time. But for a next time, you need to still have an army. Having chosen a bad **** you try to save what you can by engaging the guard early and making some more damage to the enemy morale, knowing that maybe it will be an early retreat after.

And after if you fail, the cavalry will pay a high price for it cause a pursuit in the first round can cost even more than a full day of carnage.

So at the end, the guard and cavalry will pay for saving the common grognards, the kind of defeat that some nation can't afford (spain, turkish or britain with no guard) some barely (prussia for the cost of cavalry, austria for the number of cavalry per corp) and even the most powerful (france and russia) will try to avoid cause you can afford it twice.

Commiting the guard is a choice, not a winner one, but a least worse one and i don't see the need to forbid it completely.

(in reply to Camile Desmoulins)
Post #: 26
Turn 1 commit the guard LOOPHOLE - 8/13/2004 1:37:13 AM   
meyerg

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/14/2003
Status: offline 		I agree. This is a TRICK, not a feature. After committing the guard you can punish someone proportional to the number of morale left to break your opponent. With this TRICK, after committing the guard, the opponent may still have 3.0+ morale left. Make the person committing the guard lose one full CAV (or equivalent in pursuit losses) for EACH .1 or .2 he is short in breaking the opponent and he will not play this TRICK without consequences.
I have seen the Turkish defeat Russian (unconditional peace) and proceed to go after a France that is picking on a pounded Russia. "Only I can pound on Russia!" He jumps France and picks an outflank vs defend. When the mondo outflanking force arrives, Napolean's army is eliminated and Napolean captured (with high die rolls of course). If Napolean had used the LOOPHOLE mentioned above (he pointed it out but had the honor not to use it) on turn 1, we never would have seen the Turks capture Napolean.
Historically, Napolean was quite adverse to committing his guard, even to follow up a breakthrough.
greg

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Post #: 27
RE: Turn 1 commit the guard LOOPHOLE - 8/13/2004 3:43:27 AM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Hey guys:

Had to chime in on this one because it does look like a trick??? I will do some sims and see what the outcomes are??? Haven't seen the AI do this yet??? Does anybdoy have any tales of actual abuse of this trick? I've been all ove the web and conventions and this is the first I've heard of this??????

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to meyerg)
Post #: 28
RE: Turn 1 commit the guard LOOPHOLE - 8/13/2004 6:41:42 AM   
meyerg

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/14/2003
Status: offline 		While we are talking about tricks. How about this TRICK. Player A and B are really beating up player C. Player C has his buddies D and E declare war on him so 1) he can unconditionally surrender to them to to give them the same PP gain player A and B earned without additional cost to him and 2) they can shelter him from some of the peace terms.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
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RE: Committing The Guard? - 8/13/2004 10:58:13 AM   
fjbn

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Cordoba, Spain
Status: offline 		Austria Grenadier Corps has 5 Guard/2 Cab, not 1 Cab.

On the other side, Guard comittment has other uttilities, if you know you are going to break and you suposse the pursuit willbe horrible, comitting the gurd menas a great increase of your enemy's morale loss and so a lighter cavalry pursuit. Maybe you are exchanging guard loses avoiding Cavalry loses, but this is a good trade, because Cavalry is more expensive.

(in reply to Black Hat)
Post #: 30
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