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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel

 
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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 9:05:09 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.


It would only be fair that you presented your views first, vonRom. It was you who said "If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton."


JT


Heheh

So you're speaking for ID?

And ID speaks for you?

You completely ignored my initial request, and now you add your two cents' worth?

ID "Dared" me. So let him state D'Este's views on who planned Operation Cobra.

Heheh


I can assure you that ID did not write to me "you do this, and I do this,..., and then we can shut that vonRom guy up! " There is no conspiracy found here. In fact, I urge you to keep up the postings, as you make these forums interesting to follow. ID speaks not for me. I doubt ID is even interested in my opinions. But, yes, on this occation I guess I did meddle in favour of ID, not that he needs any....


JT



heheh

Any conspiracy is purely in your own mind. . .

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

And yes, you did meddle. . .

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/14/2004 7:08:41 PM >


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Post #: 181
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 9:16:20 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:


heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?


1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 182
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 9:35:52 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:


heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?


1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT



quote:

1) ID has never 'defended' me.


Amazing that you both need to help each other


quote:

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity


I almost fell off my chair. . .

quote:

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).


But you ARE defending him

quote:

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone



I shouldn't wonder. . .



quote:

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.


Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .

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Post #: 183
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 9:50:20 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:


heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?


1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT



quote:

1) ID has never 'defended' me.


Amazing that you both need to help each other


quote:

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity


I almost fell off my chair. . .

quote:

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).


But you ARE defending him

quote:

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone



I shouldn't wonder. . .



quote:

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.


Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .


If you tell yourself everymorning that you are bright and beatiful, one day you will start believing it. I dont think of any here as my enemies. Only as my 'enemies'. What is the subtle difference there? Think about it.

I take it you disagree on my view of Dresden. Pleas express your feelings in a somewhat more coherent fashion.

As of truth and integrity: This comment was coined at both sides. Is this also too subtle? Then think about it.



JT

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 184
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 10:05:23 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:


heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?


1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT



quote:

1) ID has never 'defended' me.


Amazing that you both need to help each other


quote:

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity


I almost fell off my chair. . .

quote:

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).


But you ARE defending him

quote:

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone



I shouldn't wonder. . .



quote:

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.


Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .


If you tell yourself everymorning that you are bright and beatiful, one day you will start believing it. I dont think of any here as my enemies. Only as my 'enemies'. What is the subtle difference there? Think about it.

I take it you disagree on my view of Dresden. Pleas express your feelings in a somewhat more coherent fashion.

As of truth and integrity: This comment was coined at both sides. Is this also too subtle? Then think about it.



JT


JT:

If you are searching for the truth, then all the power to you.

I wish you all the best.

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Post #: 185
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/14/2004 10:07:56 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom


JT:

If you are searching for the truth, then all the power to you.

I wish you all the best.


Thank you.



JT

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 186
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 12:40:18 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
Von Rom
quote:

Your uncritical acceptance of ANY written word is quite scary. . .


I enjoyed this particular insult from the man who quoted from the Patton Homepage on the web, and the Patton Society Museum homepage, but nevermind, I'm sure others can see the irony as well as I.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.


I think you've missed something. You said:

quote:

Von Rom
If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton.


Why do I now have to read D'Este to figure out who he credits with the plan for Operation Cobra? Surely, since you are writing the critique, it is for you to present D'Este's evidence then demolish it with a rebuttal of your own. You've never believed anything I've pointed out to you in the past, so why would you want me to recount Colonel D'este's opinion, now? I thought this was your research? Why do I need to get involved?

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 187
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 12:40:20 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Bormann alive! They found his body in 1972 exactly where Artur Axmann said he'd seen it together with the body of Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger following the 'breakout' from the Berlin bunker. Just because he was supposedly spotted in various locations around the World doesn't mean he escaped. 'Elvis Presley' has been seen repeatedly since his death in 1977, it doesn't mean he's alive. Farago (or should that be 'Farrago') is a journalist who likes conspiracy theories, he has little credibility as a historian no matter how readable his books are!


Calm down. . .

In 1972 a doctor tried to identify two bodies that were found by using dental records he had seen 30 years previous to this examination. In other words, he allegedly identified Bormann's teeth FROM MEMORY. From this, he allegedly stated one of the bodies was Bormann

The West German Gov't, hoping to close the issue and sweep it under the carpet, declared Bormann dead.

However, MANY serious and credible sources refused to believe it including the Israeli Mossad, which continued to hunt for Bormann.

There are hundreds of creditable reports since the end of the war until the 1960s of sightings of Bormann at various locations in Europe and later in South America, when his presence in a North Italian monastery was first announced. In the same year, his wife Gerda (a rabid Nazi and daughter of Supreme Party Judge, Walter Buch) died of cancer in South Tyrol, though his ten children survived the war. It was then alleged that Bormann had escaped (like other loyal Nazis) via Rome to South America. Rumoured to have settled in Argentina where he was living secretly as a millionaire, allegedly spotted in Brazil and also in Chile, Bormann's traces proved as elusive as the anonymity in which he first rose to power.

However, the ultimate fate of Bormann is of only secondary importance.



Really! Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie. Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi. Seems Mr. Farago certainly had a flair for the dramatic, hardly a credible source to be quoting from and certainly not an author to be recommending to readers as an 'eye opener' if they wixh to discover more about Patton eh Von Rom

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Post #: 188
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:23:06 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Bormann alive! They found his body in 1972 exactly where Artur Axmann said he'd seen it together with the body of Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger following the 'breakout' from the Berlin bunker. Just because he was supposedly spotted in various locations around the World doesn't mean he escaped. 'Elvis Presley' has been seen repeatedly since his death in 1977, it doesn't mean he's alive. Farago (or should that be 'Farrago') is a journalist who likes conspiracy theories, he has little credibility as a historian no matter how readable his books are!


Calm down. . .

In 1972 a doctor tried to identify two bodies that were found by using dental records he had seen 30 years previous to this examination. In other words, he allegedly identified Bormann's teeth FROM MEMORY. From this, he allegedly stated one of the bodies was Bormann

The West German Gov't, hoping to close the issue and sweep it under the carpet, declared Bormann dead.

However, MANY serious and credible sources refused to believe it including the Israeli Mossad, which continued to hunt for Bormann.

There are hundreds of creditable reports since the end of the war until the 1960s of sightings of Bormann at various locations in Europe and later in South America, when his presence in a North Italian monastery was first announced. In the same year, his wife Gerda (a rabid Nazi and daughter of Supreme Party Judge, Walter Buch) died of cancer in South Tyrol, though his ten children survived the war. It was then alleged that Bormann had escaped (like other loyal Nazis) via Rome to South America. Rumoured to have settled in Argentina where he was living secretly as a millionaire, allegedly spotted in Brazil and also in Chile, Bormann's traces proved as elusive as the anonymity in which he first rose to power.

However, the ultimate fate of Bormann is of only secondary importance.



Really! Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie. Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi. Seems Mr. Farago certainly had a flair for the dramatic, hardly a credible source to be quoting from and certainly not an author to be recommending to readers as an 'eye opener' if they wixh to discover more about Patton eh Von Rom


Hi

If Bormann is/was truly dead - fine.

I am concerned about the evidence proving his death.

quote:

Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie.



That dentist saw Bormann's dental records 30 years previously to his examination of that body. And on that MEMORY he made a decision.

That truly has to be the greatest memory recollection in history!

And you buy that?

quote:

Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.


He did an examination of a skull which he said was Bormann's.

However, Simon Wiesenthal was also present at the Frankfurt press display and expressed doubt that the skull he saw was that of Bormann. “There seemed to be a slight difference in the skull structure from that of Bormann,” he mused.

The London Daily Express termed the Frankfurt press con­ference by the Brandt government a whitewash, and said it was Bormann's passport to freedom in perpetuity, forever freeing him from harassment or capture. The European press held that a deal was made between representatives of the Bormann NSDAP in exile in South America and the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. Their speculation was that by so doing the government sought to free itself from the unending nagging pressure of continuing to search for Bormann.

But the mystery remains: Did Bormann die in Berlin? Or did he escape?

I think it would a very interesting thing to research for anyone who is truly interested.


quote:

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi.


Yes, he did track down Bormann.

And no one has proved him wrong.

In fact, later investigators, doing their own independent research, found a great deal that corroborated Farago's findings.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/14/2004 11:29:13 PM >


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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:26:53 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!

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Post #: 190
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:35:21 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!



Hmm, I find it odd that you are determined to believe that Bormann died in Berlin, and that you believe those reports.

Farago has impecable credentials. Yet, you probably have not read a single thing he has written.


Here are a couple more opinions:

"That damn Martin made it safely out of Germany."

Walter Buch, top Nazi judge and Martin Bormann's father-in-law, upon his deathbed (Paul Manning, Martin Bormann: Nazi In Exile, p. 45)


"Of course [Bormann escaped]. He is a natural survivor."

Colonel General Alfred Jodl, At the signing of the European capitulation when asked if Martin Bormann made it safely out of Berlin (Paul Manning, Martin Bormann: Nazi In Exile, p. 185)

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/14/2004 11:37:25 PM >


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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:40:19 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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I believe those reports because they are the only ones that fit the facts. Everything else is pure speculation.

Incidentally, if you are interested in whether Bormann escaped and how his skull 'turned up' in Berlin you might like to read 'Doppelgangers: The Truth About the Bodies in the Berlin Bunker' by Hugh Thomas. He has some interesting ideas and the book is a damn good read, if a little 'left field'

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Post #: 192
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:52:44 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I believe those reports because they are the only ones that fit the facts. Everything else is pure speculation.

Incidentally, if you are interested in whether Bormann escaped and how his skull 'turned up' in Berlin you might like to read 'Doppelgangers: The Truth About the Bodies in the Berlin Bunker' by Hugh Thomas. He has some interesting ideas and the book is a damn good read, if a little 'left field'


Those reports may be true; they may not be true.

I do question them, though, as do many other people who have far more expertise in these matters than I do.

I question the credibility of a dentist who says he can tell the dentures of a man, the records for whom, he saw 30 years previous to his investigation of those same dentures.

It is simply too unbelievable. It lacks all credibility.

On the other hand, it is well known and well documented, that thousands of Nazis escaped via ODESSA and the Vatican Ratlines to South America, along with billions in funds. . .

If I find credible evidence that Bormann died in Berlin, then I will believe it.

Until then, I think I'll do more reading on the subject.

Here is what Farago writes on the subject:

ARGENTINA

Martin Bormann arrived in Argentina on a Monday morning, May 17, 1948, aboard the steamer Giovanna C, out of Genoa, Italy. Wearing what resembled the garb of a Jesuit, he entered Argentina on a Vatican passport identifying him as a Reverend Juan Gomez.

MARTIN BORMANN, former Reichleiter, head of the nazi Party chancery and secretary of the Führer, really survived World War II and managed to escape to Argentina in 1948, with the help of the Perón regime.

When I was in contact with him in February 1973, he had just moved from Chile to southern Bolivia. A very sick man, he was cared for by four German nursing sisters of the Redemptorist Order in their convent near Tupiza, a remote region of Potosí Province in the Andes.

Until recently, Bormann was in Argentina, again enjoying the hospitality and protection of the man he called his "great benefactor," the late President Juan Domingo Perón. He was living on a secluded estate of friends just north of the General Paz Speedway, overlooking the Rio de la Plata. He was as well and as comfortable as a man of his age could be - he celebrated his 74th birthday on June 17. 1974.

- Ladislas Farago 1974

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/14/2004 11:57:28 PM >


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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 1:57:36 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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I'd point out that Farago, in true 'chequebook journalism' style, was openly paying people for their stories. His books may be interesting but I find it hard to take him seriously.

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RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 2:23:23 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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From: Manchester, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!


What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...

The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.

Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?

Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 195
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 2:27:08 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke


It's already been done! It's been at least twenty years since I read the novel so I can't tell you either what it was called or who it was by. Good read though

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Post #: 196
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 2:51:15 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'd point out that Farago, in true 'chequebook journalism' style, was openly paying people for their stories. His books may be interesting but I find it hard to take him seriously.


You don't take Farago seriously (even though you have not read a single word of his), and yet, you will believe a dentist who claims to be able to identify dentures from records he saw 30 years ago

Ripley's Believe It or Not would be interested in that dentist

And your flippant attitude to Farago is very unfair. See his credentials below.

As to using his cheguebook:

Corruption and bribery is a way of life in some countries, especially in Argentina in the 1970s. Farago travelled to Argentina and bribed certain officials so that he could see several classified documents relating to Bormann. To verify these documents, he had a lawyer from the States as well as several Argentinian lawyers present to verify the authenticity of what was being shown to him.

Farago has a great deal of credibility, and he knows how to conduct investigations. He worked in espionage and intelligence in WWII for the US Navy.


Ladislas Farago's Credentials:

Mr. Farago is very qualified to write books on military history and intelligence.

He is internationally known as a writer, military historian, biographer, and as an expert in espionage and intelligence.

He served in WWII as Chief of Research and Planning, Special Warfare Branch, Chief of Naval Operations, U.S. Navy, where he did work in espionage and intelligence.

He is the author of 18 books on intelligence and military history, and has edited Corps Diplomatique and United Nations World.

He wrote The War of Wits which is a classic of military and political intelligence.

He also wrote The Tenth Fleet which has been heralded as the classic study of US anti-submarine action in WWII.

He also authored a number of works which are still classified, such as History of Propaganda in World War II and Morale and Its Maintenance in the German Army.

Both his books on Patton: Patton: Ordeal and Triumph (which took 12 years to research and write) as well as The Last Days of Patton were made into movies. And both books have stood the test of time for their content.

The screenplay for the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! was written by Ladislas Farago, Larry Forrester, Ryuzo Kikushima, and Hideo Oguni.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 12:53:30 AM >


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Post #: 197
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 2:59:14 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973

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Post #: 198
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:03:14 AM   
Von Rom


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Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!


What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...

The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.

Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?

Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke


Heheh

Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID?

You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .

You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY.

Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .

BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .

I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.

When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .

Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?

Please tell me you aren't this naive. . .

_____________________________


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Post #: 199
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:07:49 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973


Ya, know I thought we were going to able to have a decent discussion about this issue.

When will I ever learn

And you wonder why I have ignored posts in the past.

So please don't let the facts or common sense stand in the way of what you believe. . .

Stick your head back into the sand and go back to reading Whiting. . .

_____________________________


(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 200
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:08:08 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Coming from someone who believes in ignoring historical facts ahead of half-cocked theories propagated by chequebooks journalists that's a bit rich

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Post #: 201
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:09:33 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
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From: Manchester, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Erich von Manstein

For the most part, Manstein achieved most of his successes against inferior troop quality in the west and in Russia:

Successes:

* in 1938, took part in the German take-over of the Sudetenland as the Chief of Staff to General von Leeb

* On February 1st of 1940, he received the command of 38th Infantry Corps to invade France

* June 22nd to 26th, von Manstein advanced over 320km, while capturing bridges across Duna River yet failed to capture the city of Leningrad.

* he secured the Crimea and eventually took Sevastopol


********************************

However, Manstein's failures were of a greater consequence to Germany's strategic position:

FAILURES:

* August of 1942, von Manstein was once again in charge of forces attacking the city of Leningrad and FAILED to capture it.

* In November, 1942 Erich von Manstein received the command of newly formed Army Group Don, which was made up of Hoth's 4th Panzer Army, Paulus's 6th Army (entirely trapped in Stalingrad) and 3rd Romanian Army. He was ordered to relieve the 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army trapped in the city of Stalingrad. Von Manstein started his attack on December 12th and by 24th was within 50km from "Fortress Stalingrad", when his advance was halted and he was forced into 200km long retreat, which continued until February of 1943. He FAILED again.

* von Manstein's Army Group South FAILED in its attack at Kursk in 1943.

* After the unsuccessful outcome of the Operation "Citadel" (July/August of 1943), Erich von Manstein was driven into a long RETREAT by the Russian counteroffensive.

* In late January, 1944 Manstein was forced to RETREAT further westwards by the new Soviet offensive.

* On March 30th of 1944, Erich von Manstein was dismissed by Adolf Hitler.


Since this isn't about Patton (at least not directly) I felt able to step in and correct some errors

quote:

* In November, 1942 Erich von Manstein received the command of newly formed Army Group Don, which was made up of Hoth's 4th Panzer Army, Paulus's 6th Army (entirely trapped in Stalingrad) and 3rd Romanian Army. He was ordered to relieve the 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army trapped in the city of Stalingrad. Von Manstein started his attack on December 12th and by 24th was within 50km from "Fortress Stalingrad", when his advance was halted and he was forced into 200km long retreat, which continued until February of 1943. He FAILED again.


Do you have a source to back this opinion up, or is this your reading of the facts as you understand them?

The reason I ask is that I know of no one else who thinks Manstein's performance at this time was poor. He essentially had three separate tasks.

* Stabilise the southern front that had been ruptured wide open by the encirclement of Stalingrad.

* Ensure the extraction of Army Group A from the Caucasus.

* Open a supply route to 6th Army and elements of 4th PanzerArmee and elements of the Rumanian VI Corp in Stalingrad.

He managed two, when in many people's opinions, he had no right to manage any. The counteroffensive which ended in the famous victory at Kharkov was quite brilliant. Manstein had to persuade Hitler to allow him to try it, then anticipate Soviet intentions (as they weren't going to sit still whilst he manoeuvred his forces) decide which sectors to strip bare in his search for mobile forces to attack with, and then finally decide in which sectors he was going to hold firm and in which he was going to allow the Soviets to continue their drive. He created the circumstances for the counterattack. I think it stands as an example of what superior German mobility and Command and control might have done had it been allowed more elasticity in it's defensive operations at a time when the Wehrmacht was up to the job.

Stalingrad was a failure, but I'm not convinced it was ever on. The attack to Stalingrad did succeed in preventing further Soviet assaults further north at a time when the Southern sector would not have withstood them. I think throughout the campaign he retained the initiative in a situation where he had no right to maintain it. To simply say "He didn't save 6th Army so he failed", is rather like claiming the RAF lost the battle of Britain because they couldn't prevent German bombing of London.

quote:

On March 30th of 1944, Erich von Manstein was dismissed by Adolf Hitler.


Indeed he was. For suggesting Hitler should give him operational control of all forces on the Eastern front. It sounds like a good idea to me, so why this is a criticism escapes me.

quote:

von Manstein's Army Group South FAILED in its attack at Kursk in 1943.


Hitler actually called it off, when the Alies landed in Sicily. Manstein's Army group were nearing their objectives, having inflicted huge losses on the Soviet forces. The operation was essentially a failure because the other pincer of the trap had only penetrated about four miles (if memory serves) on the northern flank. Therefore, had he continued, there was no prospect of success, because Manstein's men were not the only ones involved.

quote:

June 22nd to 26th, von Manstein advanced over 320km, while capturing bridges across Duna River yet failed to capture the city of Leningrad.


He was part of Leeb's Army Group North. Why is it his fault if the Army Group fails to achieve it's objectives? He was merely a Corp Commander. Above him was the PanzerGruppe Commander and above him Leeb, it seems strange to single out a Corp Commander and blame him for everything (unless you have an agenda).

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 202
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:10:38 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973


Ya, know I thought we were going to able to have a decent discussion about this issue.

When will I ever learn

And you wonder why I have ignored posts in the past.

So please don't let the facts or common sense stand in the way of what you believe. . .

Stick your head back into the sand and go back to reading Whiting. . .


Why would I want to read any more of Whiting? I find your fiction far more entertaining

_____________________________

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(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 203
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:18:24 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Erich von Manstein

For the most part, Manstein achieved most of his successes against inferior troop quality in the west and in Russia:

Successes:

* in 1938, took part in the German take-over of the Sudetenland as the Chief of Staff to General von Leeb

* On February 1st of 1940, he received the command of 38th Infantry Corps to invade France

* June 22nd to 26th, von Manstein advanced over 320km, while capturing bridges across Duna River yet failed to capture the city of Leningrad.

* he secured the Crimea and eventually took Sevastopol


********************************

However, Manstein's failures were of a greater consequence to Germany's strategic position:

FAILURES:

* August of 1942, von Manstein was once again in charge of forces attacking the city of Leningrad and FAILED to capture it.

* In November, 1942 Erich von Manstein received the command of newly formed Army Group Don, which was made up of Hoth's 4th Panzer Army, Paulus's 6th Army (entirely trapped in Stalingrad) and 3rd Romanian Army. He was ordered to relieve the 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army trapped in the city of Stalingrad. Von Manstein started his attack on December 12th and by 24th was within 50km from "Fortress Stalingrad", when his advance was halted and he was forced into 200km long retreat, which continued until February of 1943. He FAILED again.

* von Manstein's Army Group South FAILED in its attack at Kursk in 1943.

* After the unsuccessful outcome of the Operation "Citadel" (July/August of 1943), Erich von Manstein was driven into a long RETREAT by the Russian counteroffensive.

* In late January, 1944 Manstein was forced to RETREAT further westwards by the new Soviet offensive.

* On March 30th of 1944, Erich von Manstein was dismissed by Adolf Hitler.


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke


Von Manstein:

1) He instituted mass starvation of Soviet civilians - he was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

2) He failed to take Leningrad twice

3) He failed to relieve Stalingrad

4) He failed at kursk

5) And he failed to stem the Soviet counterattacks.

6) He was dismissed in 1944.

Most of von Manstein's claim to fame has been victories against inferior and poor opposition, such as in Poland, France and the USSR.

At least when Patton entered cities, towns and villages, he was welcomed as a liberator and as a hero.

But von Manstein ended his career as a war criminal. . .

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 1:21:10 AM >


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Post #: 204
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:23:22 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973


Ya, know I thought we were going to able to have a decent discussion about this issue.

When will I ever learn

And you wonder why I have ignored posts in the past.

So please don't let the facts or common sense stand in the way of what you believe. . .

Stick your head back into the sand and go back to reading Whiting. . .


Why would I want to read any more of Whiting? I find your fiction far more entertaining



This "discussion" with you has deteriorated right where I expected it to go, based on your past comments.

So, I am just going to ignore your posts.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/15/2004 1:24:37 AM >


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Post #: 205
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:40:05 AM   
Von Rom


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Joined: 5/12/2000
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For the interested reader, here are the comments of the attorney who travelled to Argentina to witness the documents Farago obtained from the Argentine Secret Police about Bormann:


The New York Book Review

Volume 22, Number 2 · February 20, 1975

Letter

THE BOREMANN DOCUMENTS

By Joel H. Weinberg

In response to Bormann's Last Gasp (November 14, 1974)

To the Editors:

The review of Ladislas Farago's "Aftermath" by H. R. Trevor-Roper, published in your issue dated November 14, 1974, has just come to my attention. I am responding to the part of Prof. Trevor-Roper's criticism in which he questioned the authenticity of Mr. Farago's documentation.

I am a New York attorney familiar with the rules of evidence. When in September 1972, Mr. Farago succeeded in obtaining certain documents from the files of the Argentine Secret Services, presenting apparently conclusive proof that former Reichsleiter Martin Bormann had managed to escape to and settle in Argentina, he immediately called upon me to join him in Buenos Aires to aid him in the authentication of the documents, and in his efforts to establish "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the documents were authoritative and authentic.

I arrived in Buenos Aires on September 14, 1972, and proceeded with the execution of my commission as an attorney, conducting a professional investigation into the origins and authenticity of the Bormann documents. In this endeavor I was aided in Buenos Aires by Mr. Stewart Steven, then Foreign Editor of the Daily Express, who had flown from London also at Mr. Farago's invitation to assist him in the authentication of the documents; by three distinguished Argentinian attorneys, Dr. Jaime Joaquin Rodriguez, Dr. Guillermo Macia Ray and the last Dr. Silvio Frondizi of Buenos Aires; and by Dr. Horacio A. Perillo, a practicing attorney in Buenos Aires, formerly legal aid to President Arturo Frondizi.

I personally interrogated several of the special agents whose names were mentioned in or whose signatures appeared on the documents, including Inspector Hector Rodriguez Morguado of Coordination Federal and Commissioner Alejandro Rafaelo of Policia Federal, and ascertained that the documents in Mr. Farago's possession bearing on the Bormann case were, indeed, genuine, and originated as claimed at the Seguridad Federal, formerly known as Coordination Federal, the central archives of the Argentine Secret Service Establishment.

Based upon my investigation and my questioning of the parties concerned in the acquisition of the documents, I have no hesitation to state that the classifed documents on which the Bormann part of "Aftermath" is based are genuine and authentic, true copies of the originals on file at the agency until recently called Seguridad Federal in Buenos Aires. Prof. Trevor-Roper's opinion in this matter, I submit, is based on sheer assumptions in the ignorance of the facts, stemming from his regrettable failure to properly investigate the case before expressing his doubts.

Joel H. Weinberg

New York City

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Post #: 206
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:41:34 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!


What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...

The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.

Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?

Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke


Heheh

Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID?

You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .

You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY.

Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .

BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .

I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.

When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .

Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?

Please tell me you aren't this naive. . .


Oh dear...

quote:

Heheh

Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID?

You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .


What website? Are you making up straw man arguments of mine to knock down? The three works I referred to above are:

Anthony Beevor:[i] Berlin: The Downfall 1945
Robin Cross: Fallen Eagle
Ian Kershaw: Hitler: Nemesis 1936-1945.

Beevor is very well respected; Kershaw's biography of Hitler is the current standard text (a mighty fine historical work it is too); Cross has a good number of respected works on WWII military history under his belt. If you are saying I am naive, then it is these works you should be criticising. Instead, you erroneously suggest I have gotten it all from a website. Do you think people can not see this? Why do you do this?
quote:

You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY.


I am happy to accept it as corroborating evidence from a Dentist who had only a handful of clients 30 years before. I am happy to accept it as corroborating evidence when we have a witness who saw the Corpse minutes after death; a corpse subsequently dug up in the correct spot; a forensic examination of the remains that showed they matched Bormann's; the remains of cyanide capsules in the mouth when we know that a number of capsules were floating about the bunker at this time. What more do you need?

You mentioned Mossad earlier. Their record over the years, albeit bloody, has been very good. Do you honestly believe that if an investigative reporter could track Bormann down, that they couldn't? Why was there no snatch operation as there was with Eichmann?

quote:

Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .

BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .

I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.

When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .


I won't validate this sort of stuff by replying.

quote:

Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?


What gets me is why we are the naive ones? Consider what you have to believe to believe what you do about Bormann?

1. Artur Axmann lied when he said he saw Bormann's Corpse.
2. Both Bormann and Stumpfegger subsequently evaded capture in one of the most dangerous cities in the world at that time.
3. A body was found (or deliberately placed?) at the right spot for the builders to find which either
A: was somebody else's who just happened to have similiar dimensions to Bormann or
B: was deliberately left to cover Bormann's tracks meaning someone found a corpse that closely resembled Bormann's and placed it there.
4. A Dentist (who had only a handful of people's teeth to remember) lied or misidentified the teeth.
5. A Pathologist falsified his evidence.
6. The remains of a glass phial of cyanide were placed into the mouth before the bodies were buried. Or, the two bodies left to be identified as Bormann's were killed using this peculiar suicide method. (This is most revealing. If you wanted to cover up that this wasn't Bormann, in a city covered with trigger happy Russians, you could have done anything to the corpses to hinder identification, and not had to get the Pathologist and Dentist in on the conspiracy (the fewer people in on the conspiracy the less likely it is to be discovered).
7. Bormann subsequently made it to South America.
8. Bormann subsequently evaded capture by Mossad and Wiesenthal but didn't evade capture by a crusading Journalist.

Now, all I have to do is believe that Axmann (the eye witness) told the truth. I also only have to believe that the body identified by Pathology (ignore the Dentist if you don't like him) as being Bormann's, discovered in the spot where the eye witness said Bormann fell, was in fact Bormann. This is not a huge leap. I have an eye witness who places the body at the scene, a body found at the scene, and a forensic identification of the body from the scene as Bormann. This is the sort of evidence that stands up in a court of law, yet here I am dismissed as being naive for believing it.

Oh the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 207
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:43:11 AM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline
When did Borman allegdy die in Argentina?

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 208
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:45:53 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Erich von Manstein

For the most part, Manstein achieved most of his successes against inferior troop quality in the west and in Russia:

Successes:

* in 1938, took part in the German take-over of the Sudetenland as the Chief of Staff to General von Leeb

* On February 1st of 1940, he received the command of 38th Infantry Corps to invade France

* June 22nd to 26th, von Manstein advanced over 320km, while capturing bridges across Duna River yet failed to capture the city of Leningrad.

* he secured the Crimea and eventually took Sevastopol


********************************

However, Manstein's failures were of a greater consequence to Germany's strategic position:

FAILURES:

* August of 1942, von Manstein was once again in charge of forces attacking the city of Leningrad and FAILED to capture it.

* In November, 1942 Erich von Manstein received the command of newly formed Army Group Don, which was made up of Hoth's 4th Panzer Army, Paulus's 6th Army (entirely trapped in Stalingrad) and 3rd Romanian Army. He was ordered to relieve the 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army trapped in the city of Stalingrad. Von Manstein started his attack on December 12th and by 24th was within 50km from "Fortress Stalingrad", when his advance was halted and he was forced into 200km long retreat, which continued until February of 1943. He FAILED again.

* von Manstein's Army Group South FAILED in its attack at Kursk in 1943.

* After the unsuccessful outcome of the Operation "Citadel" (July/August of 1943), Erich von Manstein was driven into a long RETREAT by the Russian counteroffensive.

* In late January, 1944 Manstein was forced to RETREAT further westwards by the new Soviet offensive.

* On March 30th of 1944, Erich von Manstein was dismissed by Adolf Hitler.


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke


Von Manstein:

1) He instituted mass starvation of Soviet civilians - he was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

2) He failed to take Leningrad twice

3) He failed to relieve Stalingrad

4) He failed at kursk

5) And he failed to stem the Soviet counterattacks.

6) He was dismissed in 1944.

Most of von Manstein's claim to fame has been victories against inferior and poor opposition, such as in Poland, France and the USSR.

At least when Patton entered cities, towns and villages, he was welcomed as a liberator and as a hero.

But von Manstein ended his career as a war criminal. . .


This is the sort of thing that sullies your reputation. No context, just this. We criticise Patton for his failure to take Metz quickly, and you give us page after page of context to try and show there was no way he could have done this. You then post this, editing out my page after page of context, and think it is okay.

Oh the irony of it all...

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 209
RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel - 8/15/2004 3:55:15 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
Not forgetting (very revealing this.....)

I also gave a point by point rebuttal of your remarks, discussing the points you made in detail, referring to the operations and battles in question. You ignored everything I said and simply restated your rather basic and contextless points. I'm presuming this is because you don't actually know much detail about the operations, and are merely criticising Manstein from a position of ignorance of his career on the eastern front.

Others will decide if I am right. However, it is where these threads go downhill. Surely, you would rush to provide the context if I said:

Patton was a poor General because:

He took five days to drive through three poor German Divisions to Bastogne
He invaded a huge chunk of Sicily that was strategically pointless
He failed to capture many Germans in his drive for the West wall
He took ages and thousands of casualties to capture Metz.


However, when your statements of this type are challenged with the context, you ignore it and carry on as if nothing has been said or provided. How can this be fair?

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
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