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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

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Matrix Aircraft Upgrades - 8/16/2004 2:14:48 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

Let me say that I think the game is a great one... but ...
The whole aircraft upgrade issue thing is beginning to annoy me just a little.
I don't necessarily fall on either side of the argument - although if matrix implemented the whole thing in the way they did to keep players within certain historical parameters then I would veer more to that side of the argument...I like to explore an alternative history but within realistic limits - don't really see the point for example in letting the player do ANYTHING - let the Japanese player research an atom bomb in an artificial way and have them drop it on New York in about mid 1943 - war over I would think.
I first must say that I think the whole production thing has been badly implemented. Not necessarily in the way it works ? but in presentation. Dont see why I should ever have to download user generated spreadsheets just to understand how the whole thing works- the game should do that. This wouldn't be so bad if the game presented you with enough info and in a way that made the system easier to handle - this again is something that WITP lacks.
I am however prepared to work with these failings and invest the time necessary to understand and make it work. Then I start to see posts saying that the whole system (relating to aircraft) may have a huge flaw in it. It seems to me that the player has to put all this effort in - but - due to the way the system works - can never achieve anything beyond filling his units with what the Japanese did historically. I do not necessarily have a problem with this as a design decision - think they could have made the whole thing a lot easier for players to understand but hey...
Still, this is NOT the major annoyance for me though...I think the game may be good enough for me to go through this somewhat pointless exercise and MAKE the game work - I don't think this BREAKS the game (well - only if you are prepared to put all the effort in managing the aircraft production thing with the historical limitation - something that could have been hardcoded and removed what has now (due to the lack of ability to change the historical outcome) a time consuming chore - rather than an interesting part of the game.
What I am really beginning to have a problem with is the lack of a response from matrix to clarify this issue. To my mind the fact that the aircraft thing works this way is either ...

1. A design decision - in which case they messed up because they SHOULD have hardcoded aircraft production numbers - at the very least they should have told the player in the manual that he can only ever reach historical limits - the whole presentation of production in the manual gives the player the impression that he has full control - nowhere does it ever say "you can alter a and b and tweak c but you can never have more than 600 aircraft of type b in play as the japanese never achieved that historically. It seems to me that this issue only ever came to light as certain players diligently tracked the results of production. To may mind ... making the player go to all this effort to simply achieve historical results is madness.
2. It is a fundamental flaw and goes against the design intentions given by the manual - and simply no one tested the thing enough to notice it.

I am leaning towards no 2 as it seems bizarre that any game system should make the player expend so much effort on something that is, in the end capped by predefined limits.

***NB***
(one theory I also might have is that the design actually works as intended and the challenge in the game (as far as aircraft production goes) is not to exceed what the japanese managed historically but to work the system in such a way that you match it - you can do worse - but no better ... if this is the case then NOTHING at all in the game is broken - in any way - the challenge is to manage aircraft production and get out of it what the japanese did historically) - the strange thing is - I happen to like this - I believe their were very real and very complicated reasons why the japanese never managed to fill all their units with the only the very best aircraft - things that are not able to be simulated - if this is the design decision then I go back to thinking I will invest the effort required because then I can justify it.
***NB***

What I am really beginning to have a problem with is the lack of any input from matrix as to which it is. I know they may be away at some boardgaming thing but in this day and age are you really trying to say thay can't get some kind of internet access read a couple of posts and someone let us know what the issue is. We all paid money for this game and I suspect many of us - seeing posts like this are waiting to launch into a proper game till this one is resolved.
The simple fact is that they can read these posts and they (as the game designers and programmers) will know which of the above it is. Once we know we can then resolve what, as players we wil do... go with work arounds - wait for a patch - play it as it is .
Seems to me this issue is FUNDAMENTAL and not minor. So please matrix ... speak up and give us a break.

< Message edited by DBeves -- 8/16/2004 10:08:17 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 3:38:22 PM

MadDawg

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I know they may be away at some boardgaming thing but in this day and age are you really trying to say thay can't get some kind of internet access read a couple of posts and someone let us know what the issue is.

Actually I think they were back a week or so back, werent they?

Either way, I must admit, I do agree. I have found it a little bit frustrating that after all of the postings from matrix in the past stating that they 'wont release a game until its ready' we have ended up doing what feels to be beta testing a product we paid a very premium price for, one I would have never considered spending on another product off the shelf from a company I didnt trust, and all this so it could probably be released in time for some conference 99.99% of us couldnt make it too.

Dont get me wrong, I think this game has great potential, but currently I have shelved it waiting for rough edges to be smoothed out as I dont wont to frustrate myself to a point where I wont want to play the game either way.

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 8/16/2004 1:41:10 PM >

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 2

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 3:53:01 PM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Dont get me wrong, I think this game has great potential, but currently I have shelved it waiting for rough edges to be smoothed out as I dont wont to frustrate myself to a point where I wont want to play the game either way.

Why shelve it? Enjoy it man...it is THE BEST game of it's kind you will find anywhere. The good most definately outweighs the bad here...if you are waiting for perfection, you are in for some serious dissappointment.

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to MadDawg)

Post #: 3

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:26:35 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

That is the thing that gets me...absolutely amazing is ...
This issue is such a BIG hole that either it HAS to be ...
1. A serious flaw in the beta testing process...
2. A design Decision - very badly explained and implemented.

The point being....
If this was a deliberate design limitation imposed on players then it is VERY poorly implemented and SHOULD be fixed AND EXPLAINED BY MATRIX.
If this is actually not the way aircraft production is meant to work then it breaks the game - anyone who tries to say that a broken aircraft production system in a game about the pacific war is not a serious (VERY) serious flaw is merely trying to smooth over the cracks in an effort to justify continuing to play the game.
My point is that the whole production thing requires so much effort (due mainly to poor implementation) to make work that you are bound to make mistakes - the real difference is that even in REAL life - as the japanese did historically - if you mess things up you make do and improvise - SO if you are left with 100 crapppy planes you can still use them. The game does not let you do this. Indeed it makes it ten times more difficult because not only are you fighting the Allies you are fighting a production system that has to be fine tuned not only to make it work but to make it work within predefined UNEXPLAINED game limitations that have required users to hunt through the editor tracking down upgrade paths / reinforcement schedules and then adding them up with a calculator !!
And I say it again - I cannot see that such a fundamental limitation on players went UNEXPLAINED in the manual and that any game system would require players to do the above.
My real opinion is that the production system for aircraft is broken - I for one do not see why I should have to go to lengths such as manually calculating aicraft limits within a spreadsheet to produce a workaround and some kind of justification to expend the effort to play the game.
I paid a lot of money for the game - I like most of it - I can live with an error in the specs of some obscure rarely used torpedo type, but this is fundamental. And I once again request - Matrix - explain which it is.

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 4

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:32:12 PM

Jaypea

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/29/2004
From: New Jersey, USA
Status: offline

I haven't played the Japanese yet (being an Allied fan boy) but I would expect that when I play Japanese and that if I make no changes to production then I should get historical results. If I choose to intervene then I should be able to do better then history (if I make good choices). My expectations however are not that I can "win" the war through production changes but rather prolong it (get better results than historical). The Japanese should never be able to win the war through production changes (win means to beat the Allies). Those are my expectations.

< Message edited by Jaypea -- 8/16/2004 9:32:50 AM >

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 5

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:48:02 PM

Rainerle

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

[snip]
The Japanese should never be able to win the war through production changes (win means to beat the Allies). Those are my expectations.

Hi,
sorry I've do disagree her, but no amount of production changes, or even no amount of new super planes will make the japanese beat the allies. The only thing that could beat the allies is allied stupidity ( actually more like 'deliberate allied stupidity'). Just play the marianas scenario from the japanese viewpoint, nothing will change the outcome, no shinden, no reppu, no whatever.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Jaypea)

Post #: 6

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:50:38 PM

Jaypea

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/29/2004
From: New Jersey, USA
Status: offline

You misunderstood - "The Japanese should never be able to win the war " is my viewpoint also. I just clarified what I meant by win. You can lose the war but "win the game. I wanted to clarify that I was referring tot he fact that the japanese should never be able to win the war.

(in reply to Rainerle)

Post #: 7

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:53:54 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

You misunderstood - "The Japanese should never be able to win the war " is my viewpoint also. I just clarified what I meant by win. You can lose the war but "win the game. I wanted to clarify that I was referring tot he fact that the japanese should never be able to win the war.

Why?

(in reply to Jaypea)

Post #: 8

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 4:56:01 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, Production is not hard to understand. (I hope not) But you can't do it without looking at it and thinking a bit.

The things you need to know are

1. What goes in
2. What comes out.

Resource and Oil are used by Heavy Industry
Heavy Industry produces supply and fuel and points (HIP) that are used by aircraft factories, Arms factories, Vechicle factories, aircraft engine factories, Shipyards, Repair Yards
Manpower centers require oil and produce manpower used to create replacements and new units.

Heavy Industry and Manpower run the factories.

In your intell screen the current status of industry is listed. Watch is carefully. Understand what the impact the changes you are making is.

If you want to expand a factory you need to insure you have the required HIP and manpower surplus to run it. You cannot expand manpower except by capturing bases with manpower centers. Expanding HI requires increased use of oil and resource.

Changes are not instant. If you increase HI from 30 to 60 at a base you will not realize the increased output at 100 % for another 30 days. If supply falls below 10k at the base expansion will cease. I'm saying your industry is not a responsive vehicle. There is considerable delay between your input and the industry reflecting the changes. Don't try to do too much in too short a period. The goal for the Japanese is to have the system running fairly smoothly by mid 1943.

The purpose of the system in the game is not to provide the Japanese with a tool for winning the war. The system is the "weather gauge" the game uses to see how well the ALLIES!!!!! are doing. Their ultimate goal is to shut Japanese production (specificaly the creation of supply and fuel) down. If you re-evaluate your understanding you will come to see that the Japanese player is not fighting a war to conquer the war. He is fighting to first secure the material for production and then he must defend it.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Jaypea)

Post #: 9

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:00:33 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

Well no ... and anyone can correct me if I am wrong - but I would think that you would HAVE to make changes to the production settings.
If the game works in such a way that it limits you historically (by number of available slots in groups) as to what production you can actually use but then can say that if you leave production unchanged and the system will produce historically what was produced then the whole point of coding ANYTHING that allows players to alter production levels is even more pointless then I thought it was in the first place.
I think you are wrong - you will have to make changes to production to produce aircraft to the limit allowed - which is my big issue - nowhere does it say or define what those limits are.
If you can leave production as is and the game will produce and fill the historical availabilty present in the game then

1. Why code anything at all that allows you to change production
2. What are we arguing about.

And again I say - I do not believe this was the intention - the production system is broken - pure and simple - but - failing an answer from the only people who know for sure we can argue all we like.
Till then I cannot invest the time necessary to play a game with a fundamental flaw such as this especially when the designers and the people who benefitted from my cash cant - for some reason - come to this board and post an answer and put us all out of our misery.

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 10

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:02:54 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Let me say that I think the game is a great one... but ...
The whole aircraft upgrade issue thing is beginning to annoy me just a little.
I don't necessarily fall on either side of the argument - although if matrix implemented the whole thing in the way they did to keep players within certain historical parameters then I would veer more to that side of the argument...I like to explore an alternative history but within realistic limits - don't really see the point for example in letting the player do ANYTHING - let the Japanese player research an atom bomb in an artificial way and have them drop it on New York in about mid 1943 - war over I would think.
I first must say that I think the whole production thing has been badly implemented. Not necessarily in the way it works ? but in presentation. Dont see why I should ever have to download user generated spreadsheets just to understand how the whole thing works- the game should do that. This wouldn't be so bad if the game presented you with enough info and in a way that made the system easier to handle - this again is something that WITP lacks.
I am however prepared to work with these failings and invest the time necessary to understand and make it work. Then I start to see posts saying that the whole system (relating to aircraft) may have a huge flaw in it. It seems to me that the player has to put all this effort in - but - due to the way the system works - can never achieve anything beyond filling his units with what the Japanese did historically. I do not necessarily have a problem with this as a design decision - think they could have made the whole thing a lot easier for players to understand but hey...
Still, this is NOT the major annoyance for me though...I think the game may be good enough for me to go through this somewhat pointless exercise and MAKE the game work - I don't think this BREAKS the game (well - only if you are prepared to put all the effort in managing the aircraft production thing with the historical limitation - something that could have been hardcoded and removed what has now (due to the lack of ability to change the historical outcome) a time consuming chore - rather than an interesting part of the game.
What I am really beginning to have a problem with is the lack of a response from matrix to clarify this issue. To my mind the fact that the aircraft thing works this way is either ...

1. A design decision - in which case they messed up because they SHOULD have hardcoded aircraft production numbers - at the very least they should have told the player in the manual that he can only ever reach historical limits - the whole presentation of production in the manual gives the player the impression that he has full control - nowhere does it ever say "you can alter a and b and tweak c but you can never have more than 600 aircraft of type b in play as the japanese never achieved that historically. It seems to me that this issue only ever came to light as certain players diligently tracked the results of production. To may mind ... making the player go to all this effort to simply achieve historical results is madness.
2. It is a fundamental flaw and goes against the design intentions given by the manual - and simply no one tested the thing enough to notice it.

I am leaning towards no 2 as it seems bizarre that any game system should make the player expend so much effort on something that is, in the end capped by predefined limits.

***NB***
(one theory I also might have is that the design actually works as intended and the challenge in the game (as far as aircraft production goes) is not to exceed what the japanese managed historically but to work the system in such a way that you match it - you can do worse - but no better ... if this is the case then NOTHING at all in the game is broken - in any way - the challenge is to manage aircraft production and get out of it what the japanese did historically) - the strange thing is - I happen to like this - I believe their were very real and very complicated reasons why the japanese never managed to fill all their units with the only the very best aircraft - things that are not able to be simulated - if this is the design decision then I go back to thinking I will invest the effort required because then I can justify it.
***NB***

What I am really beginning to have a problem with is the lack of any input from matrix as to which it is. I know they may be away at some boardgaming thing but in this day and age are you really trying to say thay can't get some kind of internet access read a couple of posts and someone let us know what the issue is. We all paid money for this game and I suspect many of us - seeing posts like this are waiting to launch into a proper game till this one is resolved.
The simple fact is that they can read these posts and they (as the game designers and programmers) will know which of the above it is. Once we know we can then resolve what, as players we wil do... go with work arounds - wait for a patch - play it as it is .
Seems to me this issue is FUNDAMENTAL and not minor. So please matrix ... speak up and give us a break.

Well, this is indeed becoming the overriding issue in the whole thing. Where's the game developer in all of this? Oh, I forgot, the excuse of being at some boardgame convention... For those of you in the commercial software business, when is the last time you ever heard of your ENTIRE COMPANY closing up shop and heading to some convention? You might send one or two people out of 50 or 10 out of 500, but so many that you have no one to respond to issues? And then, according to some posters on this forum, these are all people who eat peanut butter and crackers and wrap their kids with Goodwill purchased clothing because they are doing a "labor of love" for all of us? And they have still have time and money to close up shop and all go to a convention?

The more I read here the more I'm convinced this whole thing is a pile of BS.

So where the hell is Matrix and 2X3 on this issue? The excuses are all worn out. They've got a 22 page thread on one single issue and the only guy with any kind of "official" capacity offering anything of substance is a beta tester, Mr. Fraggo... I have to say, so far the behavior of the developer on this issue is beginning to approach a disgraceful level.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/16/2004 3:21:04 PM >

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 11

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:08:35 PM

Belisarius

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline

Zoomie, I think you overestimate the size of MG...we're not talking EA games here.

_____________________________

Got StuG?

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 12

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:09:16 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I am one of the people wanting the changes to upgrades etc. The lack of an "official" response may be irritating, but I would prefer to think they have their head buried in code hunting bugs and generally making adjustments.

The production model and research model is not IMO flawed. It is the dead end upgrade feature and fixed upgrade paths for certain units. THAT is the only reason people have to rummage thru the editor and break out the calculators in the first place.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 13

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:09:33 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Production is not hard to understand. (I hope not) But you can't do it without looking at it and thinking a bit.

The things you need to know are

1. What goes in
2. What comes out.

Resource and Oil are used by Heavy Industry
Heavy Industry produces supply and fuel and points (HIP) that are used by aircraft factories, Arms factories, Vechicle factories, aircraft engine factories, Shipyards, Repair Yards
Manpower centers require oil and produce manpower used to create replacements and new units.

Heavy Industry and Manpower run the factories.

In your intell screen the current status of industry is listed. Watch is carefully. Understand what the impact the changes you are making is.

If you want to expand a factory you need to insure you have the required HIP and manpower surplus to run it. You cannot expand manpower except by capturing bases with manpower centers. Expanding HI requires increased use of oil and resource.

Changes are not instant. If you increase HI from 30 to 60 at a base you will not realize the increased output at 100 % for another 30 days. If supply falls below 10k at the base expansion will cease. I'm saying your industry is not a responsive vehicle. There is considerable delay between your input and the industry reflecting the changes. Don't try to do too much in too short a period. The goal for the Japanese is to have the system running fairly smoothly by mid 1943.

The purpose of the system in the game is not to provide the Japanese with a tool for winning the war. The system is the "weather gauge" the game uses to see how well the ALLIES!!!!! are doing. Their ultimate goal is to shut Japanese production (specificaly the creation of supply and fuel) down. If you re-evaluate your understanding you will come to see that the Japanese player is not fighting a war to conquer the war. He is fighting to first secure the material for production and then he must defend it.

The problem with understanding may have a lot to do with the inteface the data is presented with. It is very hard to conceptually grasp what is going on with production using tabular reports at a base by base, city by city, factory by factory basis. There is a reason economists and production managers at large manufacturing centers use graphical representations (bar, pie, line charts and such) and resort to the spread sheets and balance sheets only when drilling down to the details. There is just no one view available to look at Japanese production in a way that tells you basic story.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 14

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:13:50 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

Zoomie, I think you overestimate the size of MG...we're not talking EA games here.

Well if you got three guys, you may send ONE to the convention. If you have 20 you send maybe TWO or THREE at most. At our firm our single biggest show is ITUG. We have 52 on staff, and we may send 5 or 6, TOPS. The other big shows we send maybe 2 or 3.

All I ever seem to see around is apologists and excuse mongers for Matrix. At times they seem very good at responding and then turn around and disappear. It's like they have a bad case of SELECTIVE support. They support the things they select to support very well. The rest, well.....that's where 22 page threads come from...

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/16/2004 3:14:24 PM >

(in reply to Belisarius)

Post #: 15

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:14:05 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, Open your intell screen. Lower right corner click on industry pools. It's all there. Keep track of pools that are going up (you have enough of that type) Keep track of pools that are going down (you need more of these)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 16

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:17:34 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Open your intell screen. Lower right corner click on industry pools. It's all there. Keep track of pools that are going up (you have enough of that type) Keep track of pools that are going down (you need more of these)

Yea, I use the a lot. But it still doesn't paint a real clear picture. I'm not a raw numbers guy at the macro level. I think a series of bar charts and then some historical line graphs would offer a GREAT deal better insight. I'd even throw in a pie chart depicting what percentage of the whole I have devoted to each part. What we get, in the intel displays, are what I would expect in a drill-down off a graphical chart if this a production report on my manufacturing business.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/16/2004 3:18:24 PM >

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 17

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:17:36 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

Mogami,
Sorry - but I have to disagree a little with you.
Production is not difficult to understand per se. But ... within the context of the game - and the tools we are given - is extremely difficult to MANAGE due to poor interface design.
For example and this may be minor or not (please correct me if I am wrong ...) even on the screen you mention there is no "Hotlink" to the location of the production so - you may know what it is producing but can't jump to that location from that screen so if you wnat to cycle through your production to manage it you have to ...
1. Have committed all production locations to memory
2. open the intel screen about a hundred fifty odd times
3. do a print screen and draw them on a map or write them down manually.
And again - sorry to labour the point - but especially when the designers have implemented hidden limits on the most important aspect of production (aircraft) that they didn't see fit to explain (either in the manual or now) - that is extremely difficult to actually work out even when you know that it is there - and - to a lesser degree - when you know the historical limitations on numbers are there make you wonder why they bothered to code in aircraft production at all ?

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 18

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:30:54 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline

I agree. I am a Wargamer! Not a gamer. I think overall Witp, does a excellent job of simulating the Pacific war. There are some problems. Also being able to change history with in the historical capabilities of each side I have no problem with. But too change it to something totally A-Historical, then if i wanted that I would play something like Hearts of Iron. Then I would Put the game away. I have no problem with Japan having no chance with winning the war. Why, because thats the way it was historically. We have to becareful here, so that we don't change history just too meet the Non-historical needs of some player. Again this is not a EA game( thank god). This is a pacific war simulation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Dont get me wrong, I think this game has great potential, but currently I have shelved it waiting for rough edges to be smoothed out as I dont wont to frustrate myself to a point where I wont want to play the game either way.

Why shelve it? Enjoy it man...it is THE BEST game of it's kind you will find anywhere. The good most definately outweighs the bad here...if you are waiting for perfection, you are in for some serious dissappointment.

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 19

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:33:05 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, OK I'm not a Matrix/2by3 spokes person nor am I trying to defend the game to the point of overlooking or excusing where it does not perform to design.

WITP is not an "Empire" game. It is not a "Production" game. Is is a game based on WWII in the Pacific.
The game requires some effort to play. I don't know if any program could be written that managed Japanese production to suit all players. The main focus of the game is not "what" Japan produces. The Japanese player only has to make sure he continues to produce supply and fuel.
Then he has to build enough aircraft of the proper type to fit out his new arriving groups and provide replacements to existing groups.

It takes prehaps 1/2 hour to plan this before turn one against the AI (turn two in PBEM because reinforcements are not listed on turn one in PBEM)

Using the list all airgroups function you count groups on map. Note aircraft types and upgrades. Now you know how many aircraft by type can be on map, And how many aircraft of other types you'll need to upgrade.
Go to reinforcement screen and do this again.

Now before you start or on turn 2 at latest. You know exactly the size of the Japanese airforces. I won't deny more player aids could have been inserted but then the program would be even larger. I have never felt the need for a pie chart. (Although I won't argue that others might like them. The point is the game will play either side and function and enough is provided for a human willing to spend a little time early on. You can't boot up WITP long campaigns and just jump into playing. Japan is limited by her production of supply and fuel much more then aircraft. Japan will fight the first phase of the war with what she has at start. Industry will not produce the means of altering the following phases except by it's continuing to function.
Making plans that require 2000 Franks rather then the 400 Oscar II is the problem not 2by3's bad production interface.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/16/2004 10:44:19 AM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 20

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:33:18 PM

Brausepaul

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline

If Japan has no chance of winning the war...why play at all!?

Japan definatly should have the possibility to win the war (but not with production only, production might help them in winning <or loosing>).

< Message edited by Brausepaul -- 8/16/2004 3:39:32 PM >

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 21

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:35:27 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

Dbeves. Couldn't agree with you more. The entire "production interface" is Kludge
to the max. It works as if the designers had never heard of a spreadsheet and been
saying to themselves "what is the most convoluted, unintuitave, and irritating way we
can construct this part of the game. I admire Mogami's efforts at mastering this mess,
but I sometimes think his defense of it is based on the notion "I had to figure this turkey
out from scratch..., everyone else should too."

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 22

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:41:01 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I agree. I am a Wargamer! Not a gamer. I think overall Witp, does a excellent job of simulating the Pacific war. There are some problems. Also being able to change history with in the historical capabilities of each side I have no problem with. But too change it to something totally A-Historical, then if i wanted that I would play something like Hearts of Iron. Then I would Put the game away. I have no problem with Japan having no chance with winning the war. Why, because thats the way it was historically. We have to becareful here, so that we don't change history just too meet the Non-historical needs of some player. Again this is not a EA game( thank god). This is a pacific war simulation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Dont get me wrong, I think this game has great potential, but currently I have shelved it waiting for rough edges to be smoothed out as I dont wont to frustrate myself to a point where I wont want to play the game either way.

Why shelve it? Enjoy it man...it is THE BEST game of it's kind you will find anywhere. The good most definately outweighs the bad here...if you are waiting for perfection, you are in for some serious dissappointment.

I completely changed history in USAAF. By Feb of 1945 I filled the skies with ME-262's and shot down the entire 8th AF!

It was GREAT fun.....

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 23

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:47:13 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK I'm not a Matrix/2by3 spokes person nor am I trying to defend the game to the point of overlooking or excusing where it does not perform to design.

WITP is not an "Empire" game. It is not a "Production" game. Is is a game based on WWII in the Pacific.
The game requires some effort to play. I don't know if any program could be written that managed Japanese production to suit all players. The main focus of the game is not "what" Japan produces. The Japanese player only has to make sure he continues to produce supply and fuel.
Then he has to build enough aircraft of the proper type to fit out his new arriving groups and provide replacements to existing groups.

It takes prehaps 1/2 hour to plan this before turn one against the AI (turn two in PBEM because reiforcements are not listed on turn one in PBEM)

Using the list all airgroups function you count groups on map. Note aircraft types and upgrades. Now you know how many aircraft by type can be on map, And how many aircraft of other types you'll need to upgrade.
Go to reinforcement screen and do this again.

Now before you start or on turn 2 at latest. You know exactly the size of the Japanese airforces. I won't deny more player aids could have been inserted but then the program would be even larger. I have never felt the need for a pie chart. (Although I won't argue that others might like them. The point is the game will play either side and function and enough is provided for a human willing to speen a little time early on. You can't boot up WITP long campaigns and just jump into playing. Japan is limited by her production of supply and fuel much more then aircraft. Japan will fight the first phase of the war with what she has at start. Industry will not produce the means of altering the following phases except by it's continuing to function.
Making plans that require 2000 Franks rather then the 400 Oscar II is the problem not 2by3's bad production interface.

First off, not all players are chess masters with great pattern recognition skills.

Next, if the game is as you say, not a Production game, then Production should never have been put in the game in the detail it is in there now, or at least given the player the ability to control and alter it.

It's like they had an intent of design, and then badly missed the mark with this one. And it appears they have no interest in addressing it one way or the other. So for players and potential player, the only question remains is this area a big enough problem to cause them to abandon or refuse to purchase the game?

For me, it is not...

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 24

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:49:51 PM

strawbuk

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I completely changed history in USAAF. By Feb of 1945 I filled the skies with ME-262's and shot down the entire 8th AF!

It was GREAT fun.....

Now now - you are just taunting Frag now aren't you?

Ps does this count as page 24 of the upgrade thread - if so I will repeat all my poor puns here again.

PPS whatever the case on production if nobody buys the game 'cause of all the slagging we definitely won't get a fix as MG won't think it worth it perhaps? Constructive words, not that your aren't, with 'still a great game' somewhere in every post might be good.

_____________________________

Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 25

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:49:52 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

And here we are ...
The "Other" excuse ... they have their heads buried in code and are so busy fixing this issue that they cant take 30 seconds out to let us know what the issue actually is or that they are rectifying it.
I'm really sorry but that is just an apologists excuse.
Many people come to this board saying how good at customer response matrix are - these kind of issues are how it is proved.
I grow somewhat tired of this. There is NO reason why matrix cannot post an answer to this other than they don't want to admit that this is a serious flaw and, what I am more concerned about - is that they are not going to fix it.
There is a 25 page thread on an issue many consider to be a game breaker - the war in the pacific was ALL about aircraft - even the navy was only there to get the troops to get the bases to fly the aircraft from.
The simple fact is this - I can live with a design decision - I can even live with a bug that forces me to go to great lengths to work out something that could have been hardcoded for me. I can even live with a bug that that while it breaks the bit of the game it is meant to portray I can reach an acceptable workaround.
What I can't live with is a company that sits back and watches an argument unfold that they know is causing some players to shelve a very expensive product without a single word.
I always knew I would have to wait a while to be able to play the game properly and that we would all be beta testers to some extent but if a company wants its users to co-operate with them it is a two way street.
What I really don't want to do is wait five weeks for a patch then only to discover in the read me (cause they didn't tell us) that a resolution of this issue is in it.
Again - this is a fundamental flaw.

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 26

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:55:09 PM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

I don't think anyone would argue that Japan can win the war. If you have any doubts, load up the '45 scenario and look at the Allied OOB

This is a wargame and while you can't win the war as Japan, you can win the game under the points system.

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 27

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:55:55 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, OK I see I am once again failing in my poor attempts to explain the game.
Production is required. But it is not there so much for the Japanese to alter the war with as it is as the primary focus of Allied war efforts. The Japanese have to have enough control to keep it going dispite the enemy. (So they can switch production focus to counter allied damage) It's primary purpose is supply and fuel. (not creating wonder airgroups)
There are many ways for the allies to attack Japanese production. Rather then bomb specific aircraft factories they can attack engine production. They can shut it down by targeting tankers. They can bomb Heavy Industry. In the Meantime the Japanese player will be taking steps to keep it going. I don't think you need be a chess master. Just understand as Japan that production of supply and fuel is your main effort. Stopping it is the Allies main effort. All the airbattle, sea battles and land battles that make up the OPERATIONAL focus of the game are subject to this. Operations are the primary purpose of the game. Operations depend on what is possible not on what player might like.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 28

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 5:57:03 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

And here we are ...
The "Other" excuse ... they have their heads buried in code and are so busy fixing this issue that they cant take 30 seconds out to let us know what the issue actually is or that they are rectifying it.
I'm really sorry but that is just an apologists excuse.
Many people come to this board saying how good at customer response matrix are - these kind of issues are how it is proved.
I grow somewhat tired of this. There is NO reason why matrix cannot post an answer to this other than they don't want to admit that this is a serious flaw and, what I am more concerned about - is that they are not going to fix it.
There is a 25 page thread on an issue many consider to be a game breaker - the war in the pacific was ALL about aircraft - even the navy was only there to get the troops to get the bases to fly the aircraft from.
The simple fact is this - I can live with a design decision - I can even live with a bug that forces me to go to great lengths to work out something that could have been hardcoded for me. I can even live with a bug that that while it breaks the bit of the game it is meant to portray I can reach an acceptable workaround.
What I can't live with is a company that sits back and watches an argument unfold that they know is causing some players to shelve a very expensive product without a single word.
I always knew I would have to wait a while to be able to play the game properly and that we would all be beta testers to some extent but if a company wants its users to co-operate with them it is a two way street.
What I really don't want to do is wait five weeks for a patch then only to discover in the read me (cause they didn't tell us) that a resolution of this issue is in it.
Again - this is a fundamental flaw.

And this thing also will bring out another ENORMOUS weakness in a design that requires 1667 turns to play the main campaign game. Many patches will require a RESTART to take advantage of the fixes! Not a big deal for a game that one can play, start to finish, in a couple of weeks or even a month of dedicated play. But in a game that will require the better part of the YEAR to ge through one campaign, that is a HUGE problem! And not one I think has been readily understood by many here or at Matrix.

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 29

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 6:02:13 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

This whole thread is rather pointless as it is completely based on speculation not any from of reality from playing the game. People talk about problems that do not exist because they play with some numbers and think they have a problem by projecting the number out 48 months. That is about as valid as thinking buying a second lottery ticket improving your odds of winning by 100%.

Why don't you quit posting assumptions based on complete speculation and actually play the game instead. You might just find out to your surprise that funny enough, this *great* problem just doesn't exist. You want to complain about something, show me your mid '44-'45 save game that shows it.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 30

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