Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the first six months?

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Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the firs... - 8/18/2004 8:46:00 AM

Svar

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From: China Lake, Ca
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In my first v1.21 Scenario #16 mod game as the Allies versus the Japanese on hard level I was having problems staying ahead of the Japanese in Burma. I looked at some save games as the Japanese to see how they were doing it. I saw some incredible movement. The Japanese 33rd Inf Div on 2/21/42 was at hex 33,31 (a jungle hex without any trail. On 2/22/42 the 33rd Inf Div was in hex 35,30 which is 120 miles away, only the last 60 miles were railroad. On 2/23/42 the 33rd Inf Div went back to 32,31 plus 17 miles toward 31,31. That is 197 miles in 1 day after 120 miles the day before. There were 2 tank units in the area that weren't that fast, how is this possible?

Edited for a math error, 3 hexes are 180 miles not 120.

< Message edited by Svar -- 8/18/2004 3:07:07 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 8:58:49 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of imaginative "explanations" you get
to this question. 257 miles in two days is going to give even the Japanese Fan
Boys a real challange.

(in reply to Svar)

Post #: 2

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 9:04:49 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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Fast donkey express.

You do know that the Japanese have the Bullet Train don't you?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 3

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 9:24:23 AM

mapr

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Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Finland
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"Hard - Computer is given some logistical advantages"

I'd love to hear more specifically what kind of advantages these are... And what are combat advantages on Very Hard level? I am currently playing agains AI at Historical level to learn how things work in game and have to say that AI would need those advantages, but then I would not have a clue about effiency of planes, ships and troops when I start playing PBM.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 4

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 9:27:44 AM

2ndACR

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At the "Hard" level the AI gets to peek at your forces, objectives, destinations etc.

On "very Hard" the AI gets the same as Hard level plus combat bonus'.

(in reply to mapr)

Post #: 5

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 1:16:23 PM

Captain Cruft

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I'm not sure this can be explained by the "AI Advantage" features. The whole ground movement thing seems strange to me.

To give a concrete example, I once ordered a Japanese artillery unit to march from Lauheng Raung (the base where Burma Area Army starts) cross country to get on the road on the other side of the border. The hex in between is an "lm" hex i.e. mountains. I thought this would take absolutely ages but in fact it only took one day, and only one more day to go from the mountains to the road.

FWIW I haven't looked at the "transport grid" (R key) to see if there's any hidden roads/trails there.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 6

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 2:27:26 PM

Lemurs!

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That sounds like a bug; other players have seen teleporting forces as well.

Mike

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Post #: 7

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 2:30:26 PM

tsimmonds

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Is it possible that this "teleporting" division was actually broken down into regiments?

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 5:16:08 PM

Svar

Posts: 381
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From: China Lake, Ca
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The 33rd Inf Div was a full strength division that was overstrenght in IJA engineer squads and support. It also had 14 Type 92 tankettes attached that aren't in its TOE. On 2/21/42 when it was sitting in the jungle it had disruption of 20 and fatigue of 62. Following its 120 mile move out of the jungle and down a rail line it had disruption of 21 and fatigue of 65. The next day after its 197 mile down a rail line it had disruption of 20 and fatigue of 63 so it appears to have been transported.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 9

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 5:18:48 PM

moses

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Here's how it can happen. You're movement rate is determined by the hex you are IN. Test it and you'll find that this is correct. So getting from the rail to the mountain hex is easy. First move equal 90 miles and you're there with 30 miles to spare. It does not matter if the rail goes to the mountain!! Now the fun part. The trick is to start youre movement one rail hex back. On turn one you move one rail hex and have 30 miles to spare. Now you move by rail through the mountain hex. 90+30=120 movement points so you move right over the mountain although usually fatigue will slow you down a little. So normally you end up on the mountain hex with 55 or so movement points to spare which can be used to travel in any direction.

Key point: If you are on a rail hex you can go by rail in any direction regardless of what the rail net shows.

Strange exception: Say you are in a rail hex. The rail runs from your hex north to an enemy occupied hex. It then runs SE to a mountain hex NE of you. You have no rail or road connection directly to the mountain hex. Now you will not be allowed to move to the mountain hex directly. You have to go through the enemy hex!!!! The program calculates that the fastest route is the rail route and thats the direction you have to go.

< Message edited by moses -- 8/18/2004 9:20:23 AM >

(in reply to Captain Cruft)

Post #: 10

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 5:22:30 PM

UncleBuck

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From: San Diego, CA, USA
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If this unit had any engineers with it they were using the Japanese SUper Tractor Dozer. it has 10,000 HP and is able to plow through any terrain at 600 miles per hour on 1 liter of diesel fuel. It is also capable of carrying troops like a 20K AP.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

UB

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 5:25:38 PM

UncleBuck

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From: San Diego, CA, USA
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I am having a similar issue but in reverse in a game I playing with HArd_Sarge. I have an infantry brigade at Madang that is Marching to Hansa. It is in NG. It is a trail, and the unit is well supplied. In 11 turns they have gone a whopping 23 miles. That is right at 2 miles a day. Oh well Hansa is not defended , or so Recon tells me, but I may get it in the next month.

UB

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Post #: 12

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 6:45:02 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Here's how it can happen. You're movement rate is determined by the hex you are IN. Test it and you'll find that this is correct. So getting from the rail to the mountain hex is easy. First move equal 90 miles and you're there with 30 miles to spare. It does not matter if the rail goes to the mountain!! Now the fun part. The trick is to start youre movement one rail hex back. On turn one you move one rail hex and have 30 miles to spare. Now you move by rail through the mountain hex. 90+30=120 movement points so you move right over the mountain although usually fatigue will slow you down a little. So normally you end up on the mountain hex with 55 or so movement points to spare which can be used to travel in any direction.

Key point: If you are on a rail hex you can go by rail in any direction regardless of what the rail net shows.

Strange exception: Say you are in a rail hex. The rail runs from your hex north to an enemy occupied hex. It then runs SE to a mountain hex NE of you. You have no rail or road connection directly to the mountain hex. Now you will not be allowed to move to the mountain hex directly. You have to go through the enemy hex!!!! The program calculates that the fastest route is the rail route and thats the direction you have to go.

So what you are basically saying is that the game's land movement system is a TOTAL
AND COMPLETE PIECE OF GARBAGE!. That's kind of what I thought after reading the
initial post. A North-South RR line allows the player to take the "Super Chief" right
across the roadless mountain to the East or West.... And even more annoying when
the moving unit is an invader with no access to the engines or rolling stock of the RR
in the first place. Can you say "broken"?

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 13

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 6:52:00 PM

Tom G.

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Joined: 5/2/2001
From: San Francisco
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"Can you say "broken"?

Broquen. Bricken. sprochen.

Damn, I cant say it?

Anyone esle experiencing this? Possible bug?? Can we get an official response from 2by3 or Matrix?

baken, locken. This is amazing I can't say it.

< Message edited by Tom G. -- 8/18/2004 4:54:30 PM >

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 14

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/18/2004 6:59:06 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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Try "BUSTED". It rhymes with "lusted" which is a concept most guys are familiar with

(in reply to Tom G.)

Post #: 15

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 2:52:26 AM

moses

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I wouldn't use the words "broken" or "garbage" as it works in most instances. The game as is is playable and since its primarily a game of navel war I guess we could live with the current system. There are however distinct problems with the ground movement system which should be addressed. Unfortunately my attempts to raise these issues have been met mostly by miscomprehension.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 16

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 5:09:11 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Hey, Mike Scholl. You call a spade a shovel for the most part don't ya. No pulling punches for you. How many girlfriends have you pissed off in your time? "Honey, your coffee tastes like ****! You wear too much make-up, why? Because you're ugly! You drive like a girl! Boring!!! I can do better with my hand and I'm a thalydamide baby!"

Not giving you **** here. Most times when I read your posts I cough tea through my nose.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 8/18/2004 10:09:50 PM >

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(in reply to moses)

Post #: 17

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 7:59:34 AM

fbastos

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quote:

Hey, Mike Scholl. You call a spade a shovel for the most part don't ya. No pulling punches for you. How many girlfriends have you pissed off in your time? "Honey, your coffee tastes like ****! You wear too much make-up, why? Because you're ugly! You drive like a girl! Boring!!! I can do better with my hand and I'm a thalydamide baby!"

Not giving you **** here. Most times when I read your posts I cough tea through my nose.

Hehehe... ah, the British humor...

Erp.. I mean.. Canadian... :)

F.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 18

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 8:18:12 AM

Culiacan Mexico

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
...You wear too much make-up, why? Because you're ugly!...

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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 19

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 9:38:32 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Hey, Mike Scholl. You call a spade a shovel for the most part don't ya. No pulling punches for you. How many girlfriends have you pissed off in your time? "Honey, your coffee tastes like ****! You wear too much make-up, why? Because you're ugly! You drive like a girl! Boring!!! I can do better with my hand and I'm a thalydamide baby!"

Not giving you **** here. Most times when I read your posts I cough tea through my nose.

In answer to your question..., EVERY SINGLE ONE! I am cursed with honesty, which my
ex found interesting at first, then annoying, then "gounds for seperation". Damned near
choked on my coke reading your post.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 20

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 9:41:27 AM

Svar

Posts: 381
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From: China Lake, Ca
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OK, I have another example where a Dutch unit attempts to move into a hex over a period of days that a Japanese unit does in 1 day.

The Dutch unit 1st WS Garrison battlion had just entered hex 19,55 on 3/1/42 with 1 mile toward hex 20,55 which is Palembang. By 3/5/42 1st WS Garrison battalion has advanced 12 miles toward Palembang. Unfortunately on 3/5/42 the Japanese 2nd Parachute regiment along with many other units captured Palembang and moved in 1 day into hex 19,55 with the Dutch 1st WS Garrison battalion so the 1st couldn't advance anymore into Palembang. The 1st WS Garrison battalion was at disruption 22 and fatigue 68 on 2/28/42 just before it moved onto hex 19,55. While in hex 19,55 from 3/1/42 until 3/6/42 the 1st WS Garrison battalion went from disruption 22 and fatigue 67 to disruption 20 and fatigue 64. When the Japanese 2nd Parachute regiment moved from Palembang on 3/6/42 to hex 19.55 it had disruption 30 and fatigue 63 go to disruption 31 and fatigue 65. On 3/7/42 the 2nd Parachute regiment along with 4 other Japanese units that made the same move pushed out the 1st WS Garrison battalion. On 3/8/42 the Japanese 2nd Parachute regiment along with its 4 buddies moved back into Palembang.

At the rate of 11 miles in 4 days the 1st WS Garrison battalion would have taken 22 days to get into Palembang from hex 19,55. All the Japanese units made the same move in 1 day. Again I ask how is this possible?

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 21

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 10:35:20 AM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Hey, Mike Scholl. You call a spade a shovel for the most part don't ya. No pulling punches for you. How many girlfriends have you pissed off in your time? "Honey, your coffee tastes like ****! You wear too much make-up, why? Because you're ugly! You drive like a girl! Boring!!! I can do better with my hand and I'm a thalydamide baby!"

Not giving you **** here. Most times when I read your posts I cough tea through my nose.

In answer to your question..., EVERY SINGLE ONE! I am cursed with honesty, which my
ex found interesting at first, then annoying, then "gounds for seperation". Damned near
choked on my coke reading your post.

Nearly choked on your drink? Then we're even!

I do find many of your posts funny.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 3:52:26 PM

moses

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The simple explanation.

Hex 19,55 is a trail hex-you move at the trail rate. It will take at least 15 days to get from 19,55 to Palemburg.

Palemburg is a road hex-you move at the road rate. It will take one or two days to get from Palemburg to hex 19,55.

(in reply to Svar)

Post #: 23

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 4:01:33 PM

Top Cat

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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Well the Japanese did repeatedly outflank the Brits in Malaysia through what was considered impossible vehicle terrain.

The secret turned out to be the humble bicycle.
Talk about deadly treadlies.

Cheers
Top Cat

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 24

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 5:59:59 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

Well the Japanese did repeatedly outflank the Brits in Malaysia through what was considered impossible vehicle terrain.

The secret turned out to be the humble bicycle.
Talk about deadly treadlies.

But even with the bicycles, it took them almost 7 weeks to get to the Jahore Straits.
In the game I've seen it done in less than 7 days. The land movement system could
use some revision.

(in reply to Top Cat)

Post #: 25

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 6:47:34 PM

Svar

Posts: 381
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From: China Lake, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

The simple explanation.

Hex 19,55 is a trail hex-you move at the trail rate. It will take at least 15 days to get from 19,55 to Palemburg.

Palemburg is a road hex-you move at the road rate. It will take one or two days to get from Palemburg to hex 19,55.

I understand the time it was going to take the Dutch unit to get from hex 19,55 to Palembang but 5 Japanese units went from hex 19,55 to Palembang in 1 day. Both the Japanese units and the Dutch unit had about the same amount of fatigue which slows down movement so why when the Dutch unit was going to take 22 days did the Japanese units travel the same distance in 1 day?

(in reply to moses)

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/19/2004 9:18:52 PM

von Murrin

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If it's happening after combat, I would assume they are pursuing (using the option, not just tagging along behind). Anything else is a bit bizarre, even on railways.

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(in reply to Svar)

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/20/2004 12:21:10 AM

neuromancer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of imaginative "explanations" you get
to this question. 257 miles in two days is going to give even the Japanese Fan
Boys a real challange.

Okay, I was going to say that one of the advantages the IJA had over the Brits and Yanks of the day was that they traveled very light. The standard militaries carried a lot of gear on them that just weighed them down in the jungle. The IJA didn't, and so pure infantry could move quite adeptly through the jungle.

But 257 miles in two days!?

That seems a tad extreme!

Over 5 miles an hour, by foot, with no stops for sleep, eating, or going potty?

Damn those Germans! They must have sold the IJA their prototype helicopters, these were actually the first Air Cav!

Yeah... that must be it...

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

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RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/20/2004 12:25:13 AM

neuromancer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

Well the Japanese did repeatedly outflank the Brits in Malaysia through what was considered impossible vehicle terrain.

The secret turned out to be the humble bicycle.
Talk about deadly treadlies.

But even with the bicycles, it took them almost 7 weeks to get to the Jahore Straits.
In the game I've seen it done in less than 7 days. The land movement system could
use some revision.

Motorbikes.
A whole bunch of 80 cc Honda dirt bikes.

Have your men listen for what sounds like a bunch of large and annoying bees in the distance.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 29

RE: Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the ... - 8/20/2004 12:31:10 AM

tabpub

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I am always intrigued by the story of the Indians fleeing from the advancing Japanese in Malaya. Seems that the Japs were going so fast, they blew out their tires and were running on the rims. The Indians, hearing the clatter, thought they were tanks and vamoosed. Opinions? Bueller?

(in reply to neuromancer)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Do the japanese get some superfast Inf Divs in the first six months?

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