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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> CV surface combat against... Page: [1]
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CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 12:37:21 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		PT boats! Yes, on June 9, 1942 -- almost six months to the day after Pearl Harbor -- the (AI's) Japanese CVs have decided to take the direct approach against my little squadron of PT boats. I know the AI spotted the PTs a couple turns ago, so it's not like the CVs stumbled on them. Those PTs are virtually the last remaining American assets in the Phillipines; they've been hanging out at Puerto Princesa since Manila fell.

In engagements like this, I root for the AI. I really don't want to see my PT boats sinking a fleet carrier. Here's an excerpt from the combat report, and a screenshot:

Day Time Surface Combat, near Puerto Princesa at 38,55

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CA Myoko
CA Nachi
CL Sendai
DD Sawakaze
DD Yakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Wakatake
DD Sanae

Allied Ships
PT PT-31, Shell hits 34, and is sunk
PT PT-32
PT PT-33
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT PT-41




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RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 12:38:09 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		In case you're wondering, no, neither CV got a chance to fire its guns. Oh man, I was really hoping to see that. Maybe next turn. :D

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 2
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 12:38:53 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Here's a bigger screenshot. Wasn't sure 800 x 600 would fit, but I think it does:




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(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 3
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 12:47:52 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Here's the situation on the turn immediately following that surface combat, which took place at the end of the turn. Oddly, the IJN Air Combat TF now seems to be one hex east of Puerto Princesa. I thought there were only two phases of naval movement -- one at night, and one before the air operations phases. How did KB move again?

Note, by the way, that the AI has done a decent job of turning me out of the Phillipines. I shall return.




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Post #: 4
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 4:01:41 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Hey that looks familar! I guess CV versus PT battles aren't that uncommon in this game. I had one off Batavia. Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the Soryu score a hit.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Batavia at 19,59

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
DD Shiranuhi
DD Oshio
DD Umikaze
DD Sanae
DD Kiji

Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-6
PT TM-7, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT TM-8
PT TM-9, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

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Post #: 5
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 5:04:28 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Aw, lucky you -- your CV fired its guns! I didn't get to see that.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 6
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 5:11:54 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		What really breaks my heart is that I botched the screenshot of Soryu with the surface gun graphic. Copied something else into the clipboard afterwards without thinking. Live and learn.

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Post #: 7
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 5:58:32 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		what utter and compleat nonsense that during a day turn a torp platform could manuver within range and launch against gun weilding ships of any class...

Really silly and NON historical

< Message edited by freeboy -- 8/21/2004 11:59:02 AM >

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 8
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 6:28:37 AM   
tabpub


Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

what utter and compleat nonsense that during a day turn a torp platform could manuver within range and launch against gun weilding ships of any class...

Really silly and NON historical


About as unhistorical as the Hoel and Johnston (among others) engaging Kurita off Samar....

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 9
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 6:58:15 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		sorry , you lost me? My pont is that ships with 5 and 8 inch guns that could easily knock up, out a plywood hulled boat maxing out at 35knots or so would never allow in good condition, an attack like this... granted in extream weather maybe, but then how would the non radar capable pt's know? or a straight, or a straight flush..
ok..
point made

(in reply to tabpub)
Post #: 10
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 7:10:39 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		PT Boats were very successful when they were used in the right locations. The Solomons, the Philippines, places where there were lots of islands. When they could use the islands and shores as cover for ambushes they could pull successful hit-n-run torpedo attacks even on battleships. Since they were mostly wood, radar had a hard time getting a return off them. And their low profile made them hard for lookouts to see. But in the open ocean they were not as effective (although German E-boats did pretty well in the English Channel).

PT Boats IMHO should either get a bonus when in coastal hexes or a penalty in open ocean (different ways to get the same effect) but I can understand why Matrix wouldn't want to try to program for that.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 11
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 8:32:18 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		right, and if you where the commander of a tf with valuable ships, would steaming close to shore in reach of pt's and artillery be something even remotely done?
I do conceed the surprise affect in coast waters, but never ever in the big wide open, after all these are 60 nm heses, and a bb or cv shouldn't be caught in close...
my .02$ worth

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 12
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 3:43:23 PM   
mongo


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		Navigational error?

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Post #: 13
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/21/2004 4:40:33 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

PT Boats were very successful when they were used in the right locations. The Solomons, the Philippines, places where there were lots of islands. When they could use the islands and shores as cover for ambushes they could pull successful hit-n-run torpedo attacks even on battleships. Since they were mostly wood, radar had a hard time getting a return off them. And their low profile made them hard for lookouts to see. But in the open ocean they were not as effective (although German E-boats did pretty well in the English Channel).

PT Boats IMHO should either get a bonus when in coastal hexes or a penalty in open ocean (different ways to get the same effect) but I can understand why Matrix wouldn't want to try to program for that.


Please tell the rest of us where you found these "examples" of PT boats making suc-
sessful "hit and run" attacks "even on battleships"? I've run across them in Comics,
Novels, and Movies..., but never in a history book.

_____________________________


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Post #: 14
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 2:47:35 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		lol

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 15
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 2:58:56 AM   
JohnK

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline 		The only US PT boat attacks against BBs in WWII I'm aware of was the Surigao Strait action, and I don't believe they scored any hits, and got badly shot up in the process.

I don't think US PTs sank anything larger than a destroyer in WWII, did they?

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 16
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 3:43:37 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		only in hollywild, remember "They where expendable"?

(in reply to JohnK)
Post #: 17
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 3:48:03 AM   
Caltone


Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline 		I think PT's are overpowered still. It's the ability to move them anywhere (across huge ranges) and also to stack LARGE numbers of them in a base.

Probably worth a look by testers.

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(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 18
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 4:23:38 AM   
JohnK

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline 		Whether it's from "They Were Expendable" or the whole PT-109 incident and Kennedy, the PT Boat is one of those weapons that has gotten romanticized to a degree beyond its actual performance.

I question whether the resources devoted to them in terms of trained men and money building them wouldn't have been better used building more destroyers.

(in reply to Caltone)
Post #: 19
RE: CV surface combat against... - 8/22/2004 5:12:10 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		I think the largest ship torpedoed by a PT boat was the CL Abukuma. If I'm not mistaken though the torpedo was actually aimed at a different cruiser in Adm Shima's force at Surigao Strait (Nachi maybe). I believe that PT boats did actually sink the occasional destroyer during the war and I'm pretty sure that PTs got an I-Boat off Guadalcanal in late 42 or Jan 43. They were quite useful in attacking barges in the Solomons, along the New Guinea coast and in the Philippines in both 1942 and 1944-45: so much so that many in those areas actually had the torpedos removed to make room for additional gun armaments in the form of 20mm's, 37mm AT guns, and 40mm's. Fairly certain that not all such modifications were approved by BUSHIPS.

(in reply to JohnK)
Post #: 20
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