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RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:42:25 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		Now with this topic I have been paying closer attention to such happenings and noticed in the past couple turns the damn Do24s are making attacks on TF docked at ports under CAP a lot.. PBYs don't do it.. Mavis' don't do it... Wonder if there is something wrong with the Do24 code making them extra aggressive...

As for recon planes not encountering CAP at all... not true.. I have seen both mine and enemy planes shot down.. During the spotting air phase I will occaisonally get a remark about a pilot gaining a kill or planes taking flak damage. So the aspect of ships at sea work.. just not ships docked at a port maybe..

Xargun

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 31
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:42:45 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		The lower you fly, the better the chances they drop bombs. THe lower you fly, the better the chances they are shot down.

Choose your poison

(in reply to Arkady)
Post #: 32
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:47:33 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The lower you fly, the better the chances they drop bombs. THe lower you fly, the better the chances they are shot down.

Choose your poison


Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...

Xargun

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 33
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:48:59 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...


Never found that to be the case unless we are talking unescorted ships. I loose planes all the time this way.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 34
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:54:34 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...


Never found that to be the case unless we are talking unescorted ships. I loose planes all the time this way.


Maybe they just don't report them all ??

Xargun

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 35
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 9:57:47 PM   
brisd


Posts: 614
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		It is difficult to track these patrol attacks as they don't show up in Combat Reports. I have confirmed two definite hits out of the four reported, both in tf's docked in port with CAP. I agree that combat aircraft should have a chance to break through the heaviest CAP and AAA and score a rare hit. Just seems these planes are just a bit too effective.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 36
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 11:10:42 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		In reply to unclebuck:

Just because you don't see CAP aircraft doesn't mean they're not there. Its the plane you don't see that kills you. If you are a single naval search aircraft you are going to stay away from locations presumed to be heavily defended.

I don't have time to test this but it would be easy. Play as allied player vs JP AI. Set all aircraft on naval search and leave everything else alone. Run about 7 days and see what you hit. Only problem is you do have to sit and watch the reports as they come in as I don't think these attacks show up on the combat report.

(in reply to brisd)
Post #: 37
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 11:24:02 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I -know- that search planes will get clobbered by CAP.

You can test this by putting the Tone w/ her 13 scouts next to a USN Carrier TF. Set the planes to CAP 100%, and stand-down the bombers.

Next turn, you'll get
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #2."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #3."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #4"
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #5."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #6."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #5."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #6."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #7."
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #4"
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #5."
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #6."

Check the aircraft losess. 11 Alfs.

-F-


(* as to whether the could/should get thru the CAP, no opinion. I know that historically, that's the very reason the USN put the 100lb bombs on the SBD scouts. To maybe put a lucky hit into the flight deck of an enemy CV, and put it's deck out of commssion, until a strike could be sent *).

But do I think it's too frequent or over-powered. I don't know it's historical effectiveness, so I don't make a call. It's even for both sides, so it's not really a detractor.

< Message edited by Feinder -- 8/18/2004 4:26:29 PM >

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(in reply to Arkady)
Post #: 38
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 11:28:43 PM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Can you please tell me how WW2 Recon pilots were able to do recon without over flying Dangerous targets? I mean hel if you are already over it why not loose the extra weight under teh wings?

UB

_____________________________


(in reply to moses)
Post #: 39
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/18/2004 11:44:55 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		First recon and naval search are two different missions. Second its not neccessary to fly directly over a target in order to get pictures. Third you can optimize for survivability by not carrying bombs to maximize altitude and speed.

What you cannot generally do is fly a single search aircraft directly over a heavily defended target, drop your bombs, and fly away unmolested.

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 40
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/19/2004 3:03:32 AM   
irishman


Posts: 256
Joined: 6/13/2004
From: Emerald Isle
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The lower you fly, the better the chances they drop bombs. THe lower you fly, the better the chances they are shot down.

Choose your poison


The problem seems to be in two parts:
1 - The Do24k seems to be much more effective than other patrol planes. It successfully hits ships docked in heavily defended ports whereas Catalinas, B-17s etc hit ships at sea in small TFs (which is as expected).
2 - The success rate in Naval search mode is higher than in Naval attack mode irrespective of the height.

Maybe the problem is that the Naval attack mode should be more successfull for small airstrikes in the same way that small numbers of PT boats can succeed where a large group of CAs and DDs would fail.

_____________________________

The greater the difficulty, the greater the glory - Cicero

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 41
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/19/2004 3:14:13 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishman

The problem seems to be in two parts:
1 - The Do24k seems to be much more effective than other patrol planes. It successfully hits ships docked in heavily defended ports whereas Catalinas, B-17s etc hit ships at sea in small TFs (which is as expected).
2 - The success rate in Naval search mode is higher than in Naval attack mode irrespective of the height.

Maybe the problem is that the Naval attack mode should be more successfull for small airstrikes in the same way that small numbers of PT boats can succeed where a large group of CAs and DDs would fail.


I still think there is some hidden issue lurking regarding "Naval Search" aircraft attacks from UV into WitP... IMHO such attacks should be 100x less successful unless it is unescorted/unprotected single ship TF or few ship TF at open sea or in undefended port...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to irishman)
Post #: 42
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/19/2004 9:18:24 PM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I still think there is some hidden issue lurking regarding "Naval Search" aircraft attacks from UV into WitP... IMHO such attacks should be 100x less successful unless it is unescorted/unprotected single ship TF or few ship TF at open sea or in undefended port...


Leo,

If you think there is a problem, why don't you edit up one of the small WitP scenarios and prove it one way or another. One airfield base for the nav search unit and another (enemy) airfield/port base for the CAP and target TF.

I ran a similar test recently with a modded scen 4 and it took me about 90 minutes (from the time I started editing) to get through 2 months of play.

Get some real stats posted in the forums. It's the best way to highlight any problem (real or imagined).

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 43
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/20/2004 4:04:15 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I still think there is some hidden issue lurking regarding "Naval Search" aircraft attacks from UV into WitP... IMHO such attacks should be 100x less successful unless it is unescorted/unprotected single ship TF or few ship TF at open sea or in undefended port...


Leo,

If you think there is a problem, why don't you edit up one of the small WitP scenarios and prove it one way or another. One airfield base for the nav search unit and another (enemy) airfield/port base for the CAP and target TF.

I ran a similar test recently with a modded scen 4 and it took me about 90 minutes (from the time I started editing) to get through 2 months of play.

Get some real stats posted in the forums. It's the best way to highlight any problem (real or imagined).


Believe me I exactly did that (or was trying to) for several things I wanted to test!

But, unfortunately, there is bug In WitP with very small scenarios...

"Arkady" and I found it out and we posted it on "Support" and "Editor" forums.

In short in manifests that WitP freezes down after several executions. Apparently there is some "leak" regarding number of land combat units...

Raymond ("Mr.Frag") got both my short scenario and "Arkady's" modified Scen#4 and he saw it too - after that he send the files to Michael Wood.


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Drongo)
Post #: 44
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/21/2004 7:30:56 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		I dont see a problem here. The ocean is BIG. The sky is even bigger.
Lone planes are hard to spot and identify, can be easily mistaken for own aircraft as well.

Maybe CAP is too effective against normal strikes?

(in reply to Arkady)
Post #: 45
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/21/2004 7:57:35 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Raymond ("Mr.Frag") got both my short scenario and "Arkady's" modified Scen#4 and he saw it too - after that he send the files to Michael Wood.


Don't be starting rumors ... I talked to Mike about it, he asked me to check some stuff ... Mike is *not* looking into it as Mike has a million odd things on his list already to keep him busy

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 46
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/21/2004 11:26:09 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Raymond ("Mr.Frag") got both my short scenario and "Arkady's" modified Scen#4 and he saw it too - after that he send the files to Michael Wood.


Don't be starting rumors ... I talked to Mike about it, he asked me to check some stuff ... Mike is *not* looking into it as Mike has a million odd things on his list already to keep him busy


OK.

Is this, at least, confirmed as a bug and entered into bug list?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 47
RE: Search aircraft on the attack - 8/22/2004 12:06:42 AM   
HawaiiFive-O

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 12/21/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		I had a Do-24k slip through Akagi, Kaga, and Ryujo's CAP and plant a bomb on Akagi that started a fire which wound up sending Akagi back to Tokyo for repairs for about a month.

The AI Dutchies finest moment.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 48
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