Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 11:58:08 AM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I was against player controlled production, unless it was a toggable option.
My idea, nay "solution" for all the ruckas regarding upgrades/downgrades was a simple restrictive system.

Japan: IJN groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJN aircraft
IJA groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJA aircraft

Further restrictions:

Fighter groups can only change to other types of fighter groups/Fighter-bombers
Bomber groups can only chage to other types of bomber groups.
(further: LBA to LBA only......Dive bomber to Dive bomber only, Torpedo bomber to torpedo bomber only)

Mr. Frag asked how do you model the historical limitations the Japanese experience with regards to aircraft production.

I see only two reasons for have fixed upgrade paths for air groups: to stop players from having the unrealistic ability to change every group to a single type of aircraft or because the AI couldn�t figure out which aircraft to choose regarding upgrade. If the AI is the problem this suggestion isn�t going to help.

The limitation of only allow �X� number of groups flying Tony aircraft is an attempt to model the limitation of the Japanese production system, which could not realistically switch to producing a single type of aircraft or realistically have huge increases in production.

Problems:

1. A player knows when an aircraft will be available and ramps-up production to unrealistic levels.

2. The ability to switch factors to produce any aircraft is not historical. Nakajima factories should be only able to produce Nakajima aircraft.

3. The ability to rapidly increase aircraft production was not available historically. The Ki-84 which had the highest production rate of any JAAF aircraft in the entire war achieved a peak monthly production of 373 Ki-84s in December 1944. Total production at the two Nakajima plants was 3,415 prototypes, service test machines, and production machines.

Suggestions:

The proposal of Nikademus regarding upgrade paths is historically sound and should be adopted. Added to this should be a system to place restrictions on the Japanese production system.

Possibility #1

1. Eliminate research.
2. Aircraft not already in production will start on fixed dates.
3. Aircraft not already in production will have factories pre-set for their production.
4. Factories can�t be switched to an aircraft not in production.
5. Factories are restricted to producing either Army or Navy aircraft.
6. Automatic changes in production can take place on historical date.
7. Automatic changes need players ok.
8. Automatic changes cause no production loss.
9. Factories that are manually switched to produce a different aircraft are reduced to �0�.
10. Change aircraft expansion rates.
......a. Single Engine Aircraft expansion if selected will have a 20% chance per day to increase the month production rate by one. Average increase would equal about six aircraft per month selected.
.......b. Twin Engine Aircraft expansion if selected will have a 10% chance per day to increase the month production rate by one. Average increase would equal about three aircraft per month selected.
.......c. Four Engine Aircraft expansion if selected will have a 5% chance per day to increase the month production rate by one. Average increase would equal about one aircraft per month selected.

Example: once Ki-84s are available the production rate will be limited to pre-set factories and any the player wishes to switch to this type of aircraft. If he decides to switch two Nakajima factories to Ki-84 they will start at �0� production rate and he will have to expand them. Average expansion will be only six aircraft a month so that after one year these extra two factories will only be producing on average 72 aircraft per month each.

If April 1944 is selected as the initial production date for Ki-84s and the two preset factories start building at a combined rate of say 275 aircraft per month, in one year production could expand to about 450 aircraft. If you add to this two other factories, production in April of 1945 could reach 600 aircraft per month� if oil, resources, and HI is available, which is unlikely.

The player can choose to continue with Tony, Tojo, and Oscar production or convert everything to Ki-84s, but those switch factories will be producing very little for many months. The player can choose to sacrifice aircraft today for future aircraft.

Note: the ability to increase production can be further differentiated between aircraft. Perhaps you can keep Oscars at 6/month, but change the rate to 5/per month for Tojos to simulate difficulties in their production.

Possibility #2

If research is desired, change the system currently used. Each factory can be changed to �Research�, it�s production level is set to �0�, and there is a .04% chance per day that all aircraft of that branch (Army or Navy) will have their availability moved up by one day.

Example the Ki-84 at the start of the war is about 850 day away. If the Japanese player switches a single Nakajima factory to research (it produces nothing) on 7 December 1941, then the Ki-84 (as well as other army aircraft) has a chance to advance its development time.

7 December 1942
365 days * .04% = 14.6 days

7 December 1943
730 days * .04% = 29.2 days

The further out an aircraft is in availability the more �research� will play a role. The more factories removed from producing aircraft the more impact it will have on research: if one factory researching can move the availability date of the Ki-84 up by one month then four such factories should move it up four times faster.

The player is sacrificing Oscar, Tony, and Tojo production for a modest gain in future aircraft arrival dates, which is a choice.

Note: If the value of .04% is too high... reduce it to .03% or .02%.

To quote Nikademus, �Now that i've posted enough to be flamed.�

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

Post #: 1

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 5:07:15 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Good post!

Those are exactly the kind of things I look for to allow aircraft types to be switched around yet prevent the system from being *gamed* to produce silly results.

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 2

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 7:18:57 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

Interesting post - thanks!

BTW, I wondwer what Matrix/2By3 thought of our several week long discussion about aircraft production and our poll...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 3

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 7:28:02 PM

Herrbear

Posts: 883
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline

"if one factory researching can move the availability date of the Ki-84 up by one month then four such factories should move it up four times faster"

I think you have a good suggestion, but why would 4 factories increase the research 4X faster. I understand what you are saying in game purpose, but how IRL would that be beneficial. If one factory is shut down to produce a prototype, test, modify or new proto, test, ect. why would research benefit from 4 factories trying to do the same thing. Wouldn't that produce a lot more chaos on which proto to turn into production and actually come closer to introducing more than one type of plane?

Just a thought.

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 4

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 7:54:25 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

"2. The ability to switch factors to produce any aircraft is not historical. Nakajima factories should be only able to produce Nakajima aircraft"

This is basicaly Not True, diferent firms produced planes from diferent companys a lot , in fact all over the world this was doneduring the war. Nakijima actualy Built far more of the Zeros than Mitsubishi did, and their are many more examples to be found.

"The limitation of only allow �X� number of groups flying Tony aircraft is an attempt to model the limitation of the Japanese production system, which could not realistically switch to producing a single type of aircraft or realistically have huge increases in production. "

Retooling would not be that big a deal, while the likelyhood of switching all to this one type in very minimal, basicaly do to political constraints and interservice riverlys, the actual building of is a diferent mater entirely and most easly overcome.

............................

Some Aircraft were Built for both the Army and the Navy, Ki-67 for example.

.......................

"Example: once Ki-84s are available the production rate will be limited to pre-set factories and any the player wishes to switch to this type of aircraft. If he decides to switch two Nakajima factories to Ki-84 they will start at �0� production rate and he will have to expand them. Average expansion will be only six aircraft a month so that after one year these extra two factories will only be producing on average 72 aircraft per month each. "

This is indead a bit over the top, I realy should of followed that long thread on Aircraft production.

...................

I am in favor of research, but I wounder just how much consideration changing the production system is being given by Matrix, espichaly if some of the compleatly wrong statemts and asumptions about the Japanese production system above relative to the real world Historical aspect of this are concerned. The Production system and the ecenomy in WiTP for Japan are extreamly abstracted, for instance Oil Japan did not realy use Oil to run the Industrial Machine, it used Coal, Oil was realy only used to fuel the Machines of War, not the ecenomy, but we dont see Coal in the game, Japan also had fairly large Natrual resources for Coal, but Oil is nescesary to run the empire in more ways than Just Fueling the War Machines, while I am typicaly extreamly anal about the details, this production system is so far from the mark in so many ways I cant realy see the nead to redo it, presently, what I wounder is the underlying reasion for wanting to do so?

< Message edited by Brady -- 8/22/2004 6:17:37 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Team Member for:

WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

(in reply to Herrbear)

Post #: 5

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/22/2004 8:59:07 PM

esteban

Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

"2. The ability to switch factors to produce any aircraft is not historical. Nakajima factories should be only able to produce Nakajima aircraft"

This is basicaly Not True, diferent firms produced planes from diferent companys a lot , in fact all over the world this was doneduring the war. Nakijima actualy Built far more of the Zeros than Mitsubishi did, and their are many more examples to be found.

"The limitation of only allow �X� number of groups flying Tony aircraft is an attempt to model the limitation of the Japanese production system, which could not realistically switch to producing a single type of aircraft or realistically have huge increases in production. "

Retooling would not be that big a deal, while the likelyhood of switching all to this one type in very minimal, basicaly do to political constraints and interservice riverlys, the actual building of is a diferent mater entirely and most easly overcome.

............................

Some Aircraft were Built for both the Army and the Navy, Ki-67 for example.

.......................

"Example: once Ki-84s are available the production rate will be limited to pre-set factories and any the player wishes to switch to this type of aircraft. If he decides to switch two Nakajima factories to Ki-84 they will start at �0� production rate and he will have to expand them. Average expansion will be only six aircraft a month so that after one year these extra two factories will only be producing on average 72 aircraft per month each. "

This is indead a bit over the top, I realy should of followed that long thread on Aircraft production.

...................

I am in favor of research, but I wounder just how much consideration changing the production system is being given by Matrix, espichaly if some of the compleatly wrong statemts and asumptions about the Japanese production system above relative to the real world Historical aspect of this are concerned. The Production system and the ecenomy in WiTP for Japan are extreamly abstracted, for instance Oil Japan did not realy use Oil to run the Industrial Machine, it used Coal, Oil was realy only used to fuel the Machines of War, not the ecenomy, but we dont see Coal in the game, Japan also had fairly large Natrual resources for Coal, but Oil is nescesary to run the empire in more ways than Just Fueling the War Machines, while I am typicaly extreamly anal about the details, this production system is so far from the mark in so many ways I cant realy see the nead to redo it, presently, what I wounder is the underlying reasion for wanting to do so?

"Oil" in the game seems to include all fossil fuel energy sources. For example, there is quite a bit of "oil" production ingame in Manchuria and Hokkaido. In real life, 99% of this was all coal production. The same thing with the area around Sian and Lanchow, and the "oil" centers in Western India. In real life, this was all coal production.

So I think that you can really think of the "oil" you see ingame as hydrocarbons of various types.

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 6

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 6:52:19 AM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

"if one factory researching can move the availability date of the Ki-84 up by one month then four such factories should move it up four times faster"

I think you have a good suggestion, but why would 4 factories increase the research 4X faster. I understand what you are saying in game purpose, but how IRL would that be beneficial. If one factory is shut down to produce a prototype, test, modify or new proto, test, ect. why would research benefit from 4 factories trying to do the same thing. Wouldn't that produce a lot more chaos on which proto to turn into production and actually come closer to introducing more than one type of plane?

Just a thought.

Aircraft research seems difficult to model in this game; and while I wouldn�t mind not having it at all some people seem to want it included. How do you give those players what they want, but at the same time not allow totally non-historic actions?

It seems to me that the Japanese spent considerable effort in developing, test, fielding, and producing aircraft. If you wish to allow the player to improve on what was done historically� it has to cost him something. Something prohibitive. The amount of oil resources, HI, etc are just to large of variables to act as restrictive agents. The one item in the game that I see as being able to act as a deterrent to research is the aircraft factories themselves. Is it realist or historical� absolutely not. Does it allow the player to make tough choices: trade aircraft now for future aircraft sooner� yes.

I could rationalize it by saying that instead of Nakajima build four large production plants they instead spent all the money, manpower, and time on a world class aircraft research and development center.

Just wanted to give the player choices� tough ones.

< Message edited by Culiacan Mexico -- 8/23/2004 1:53:55 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Herrbear)

Post #: 7

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 7:28:08 AM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
This is basicaly Not True, diferent firms produced planes from diferent companys a lot , in fact all over the world this was doneduring the war. Nakijima actualy Built far more of the Zeros than Mitsubishi did, and their are many more examples to be found.

You are correct. Yet in the game, some restrict needs to be in place to stop wild swings in production which were neither historical nor practical. Politics and interserves rivalry aren�t modeled in the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
Retooling would not be that big a deal, while the likelyhood of switching all to this one type in very minimal, basicaly do to political constraints and interservice riverlys, the actual building of is a diferent mater entirely and most easly overcome.

The Japanese in reality, lack they production capability to meet their needs in WW2. This is a major restraint to the Japanese that needs to be modeled.

�The lesson of the Shinden is that Japan did not lack for innovation in its aircraft designs; what it lacked was the production capability to take those dreams and transform them into reality.�

For example, shortly after the Ki-43-IIa�s introduction the JAAF tried to expand production at two Tachikawa-based facilities, the Army�s First Air Arsenal and the Tachikawa Airplane Company Ltd. �But the Air Arsenal lacked the skilled personnel needed to mass-produce the Ki-43, and production ceased there after just 49 Ki-43-IIas, mostly assembled from Nakajima-supplied components, were completed in a thirteen-month period (October 1942-November 1943).� �Tachikawa Airplane Co. was better prepared for mass-production, and virtually took over all production of the Hayabusa after the summer of 1943. The Nakajima Company itself, though still creating prototypes, was trying to concentrate on production of the later Ki-44 and Ki-84 fighters.�

In the Philippines it was found that the Ki-84�s were suffering from a number of manufacturing weaknesses: �the faulty engines that could lose oil and/or fuel pressure disconcertingly in combat. They also had poorly designed and unreliable hydraulic systems, and their landing gear legs could snap during rough landings on jungle airfields, due to poor hardening of the steel used.�

These production problems were not just with the Ki-84. The Ki-61 a very good fighter suffered because the Ha-40 engine �was proving to be alarmingly unreliable under combat conditions, especially in the tropical climate of New Guinea.�

_____________________________

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 8

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 7:38:04 AM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
I am in favor of research�

Research is already built into the game: in that Ki-84 appear without any input by the player. How do you model trying to develop aircraft faster than was historically done? As it is simulated in the game it is not realistic.

Not realistic = to easy to advance production at a minor cost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
�I wounder is the underlying reasion for wanting to do so?

You can�t remove the restrictions on upgrades without replace it with something. The real reason the Japanese couldn�t field a complete air force of Ki-44, Ki-61, or Ki-84 wasn�t because the groups couldn�t use them, but because Japan was incapable of build such a fleet of aircraft.

< Message edited by Culiacan Mexico -- 8/23/2004 7:39:32 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 9

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 8:08:45 AM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Good post!

Those are exactly the kind of things I look for to allow aircraft types to be switched around yet prevent the system from being *gamed* to produce silly results.

The player should have choices, but they should be guided by history. I would �like� (campaigned?) for those historic restrictions to be moved from the operational level to the strategic level production. Production is already abstract so I don�t see how it distracts for it, but it would allow the player at the operation level to use his air groups as he sees fit: down grade to old aircraft for Kamikazes, upgrade groups that have high experienced pilots to better aircraft, while in stalling realistic limitation on just how many aircraft the Japanese could produce of any type.

I personally doubt 2by3/Matrix wants to spend their time revamping this system; and if the day arrives and they say, �We aren�t going to change it�� I will drop the subject. However, I was told that if you want them to consider an item �You need to speak up�; so until they tell me, �CM shut up�� I will continue to toss out ideas.

No offense intended towards anyone.

_____________________________

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 10

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 11:05:21 AM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

"You are correct. Yet in the game, some restrict needs to be in place to stop wild swings in production which were neither historical nor practical. Politics and interserves rivalry aren�t modeled in the game"

While in general I would agree that a restriction neads to be implace, but I dont care for this one it is to limiting, Japans problems during the war had as much to do with their choices as their physicaly/ecenomic/industrial limations, and as noted above this did hapen in the real world(diferent firms building designes from other firms). Realy a limation of sorts exists already in the game...Even if a player can build all the Vals or Kates or Zeros they may ever nead, they will be limited by the Schear overwhealming Force that will rise to apose them in time, atration will sap their piolet skill and hasten the the loss of even more planes and men unitll finialy no units will have enough trained men to make a good go of it when later models arive, Players will see this coming of course and not waste these Men, this is the true limitating factor in the game, players can tinker with production to their hearts content, forces fare greater than the production routine will conspire to overwhelm them in the end.

"The Japanese in reality, lack they production capability to meet their needs in WW2. This is a major restraint to the Japanese that needs to be modeled. "

Realy it already is, the Alies will have far more in the way of men and material no mater what the Japanese do, their is no nead to further constrain them.

"Research is already built into the game: in that Ki-84 appear without any input by the player. How do you model trying to develop aircraft faster than was historically done? As it is simulated in the game it is not realistic.

Not realistic = to easy to advance production at a minor cost."

Yes I agree that it is certainly simplified, but near as I can tell it is not realy easy to advance production of a given type by a signafagant margine, and those types are still going to be available in comaparatively small numbers and at a time when the Allies have a Material and Numeric advantage....In the end all that the system seams to do is alow a player to Not run out of a given plane type...Thus enshuring he has toys to play with if the system is managed as a whole this includes a realisitc aproach to using his forces. Many aspercts of the game are oversiplified, to some the production system is Way to intense to even deal with so I doubt Matrix will want to further complicate it.

"You can�t remove the restrictions on upgrades without replace it with something. The real reason the Japanese couldn�t field a complete air force of Ki-44, Ki-61, or Ki-84 wasn�t because the groups couldn�t use them, but because Japan was incapable of build such a fleet of aircraft. "

This is not entirely ture, Certainly they could never of compeated with the production capacitys of all the Allied Nations arayed aganst them, but they could of made diferent chloices in the production of given plane types, and as noted above diferent firms could of switched to build say more Tonys. In the Game as a whole the upgade paths that exist for Japan are far from Historical anyway, another example of a simplifed model. Many of the defeciencys you note above tie in part to labor issues, material shortage issues, and training, all of which are and were a result of the state of the war, this s somthing that is not realy represented in the game what if the war situation is Better for Japan in 43 than it realy was? Will the Army not nead to draft skilled labor if the war is going well? This is but one example their are many other details that efected the products that Japans war machine turned out that are not realy adreased and in efected hard coded into the game.

Again in the end it will mater little how many "X" planes Japan is alowed to build, the system will not alow them to win in the end if faced with a competent aponet..not the stupid AI. One look at the editor and the Values asigned to late war planes will show this at a glance.

_____________________________

Beta Team Member for:

WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 11

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 11:37:06 AM

Rainerle

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline

Hi,
since many want to restrict research from following unhistorical paths (i.e. skipping so called weak designs) may I (humbly) suggest the following:
plane D follows plane C follows plane B follows plane A

now:
plane A is researched, available and in production
plane B is in research and 1 plane built equals 1 research point
plane C is still further out and 1 plane built equals 1/2 research points
plane D is still a dream and so 1 plane built equals 1/4 of a research point
and so on.

When plane B gets invented (so to speak)
plane C is worth 1=1
and plane D is worth 1 = 1/2
and so on.

This you model the fact that later designs 'learn' from in-between models. If you want to go directly to plane D, fine but it will be slow.

_____________________________

Image brought to you by courtesy of Subchaser!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 12

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 12:56:36 PM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
� Japans problems during the war had as much to do with their choices as their physicaly/ecenomic/industrial limations�

Japans choices were fairly limited and their capabilities were moderate at best, but in the games production model this is not shown because dramatic non-historical changes and increases in production are allowed. The Japanese play can expand his production in the game to unrealistic levels (1,000 Tojos per month by the end of 1942) because the cost of aircraft in the game is abstract and the ability to expand is way too generous.

1,000 single engine aircraft/month
1,000 air frames + 1,000 engines
1,000 air frames * 18 Heavy Industry Points + 1,000 engines * 18 Heavy Industry Points
36,000 HI per month or only 1,200 per day. Consider the Japanese player can produce in excess of 15,000 HI Points per day, this is not a problem.

The Japanese player starts with an access of HI and can expand HI by another 1,800 once all historic objectives are captured (May 1942?) and not tap reserves. HI Point expense doesn�t serve as a historical limiting factor. The highest level of production achieve by any JAAF aircraft was the Ki-84 which achieved the level of 373 aircraft/month in December of 1944. It is reasonable to believe the JAAF wanted more aircraft, so we must look to the manufacture for why these needs weren�t met. There were factors limiting production that is simply not directly modeled in WitP.

To remove the restrictions imposed by fixed upgrades, but not replace it with another system could easily distort the simulation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
�Even if a player can build all the Vals or Kates or Zeros they may ever nead, they will be limited by the Schear overwhealming Force that will rise to apose them in time,�

�.Realy it already is, the Alies will have far more in the way of men and material no mater what the Japanese do, their is no nead to further constrain them.

We are coming form different direction on this� I don�t care if it easier or harder on the Japanese. I don�t care if now the Japanese can or can�t achieve a ratio determine to mean victory.

The current fixed upgrades interferes at the operational level and do not reflect the historical options available. I would like to see it changed.

The current production system does not reflect the historical limitation Japan faced. It should be changed also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
Many of the defeciencys you note above tie in part to labor issues, material shortage issues, and training, all of which are and were a result of the state of the war, this s somthing that is not realy represented in the game what if the war situation is Better for Japan in 43 than it realy was? Will the Army not nead to draft skilled labor if the war is going well? This is but one example their are many other details that efected the products that Japans war machine turned out that are not realy adreased and in efected hard coded into the game.

Hard code? Actually, I would like to see just the opposite. Let us assume for the moment that the normal expansion rate for the Ki-44 is set a 20% chance per day to expand monthly production by �1�. This value of �20%� should be changeable in the editor. The same with the value of �0� given to factories starting up production� you should be able to modify it in the editor.

Regarding set backs. The Ki-61-I, a fine fighter over all, had problems with the Ha-40 engine which was in production well before major setback occurred. The replacement of engine in the Ki-61-II with the Ha-140 engine wasn�t much help, as this engine proved disappointingly unreliable, the crankshaft in particular being weak and prone to breakage. The aircraft itself had problem: �the enlarged wings also proved to be troublesome, sometimes failing while under maneuverability tests.�

Japanese production did suffer because of all the things you listed, but its major problem was it was trying to do more than it was capable of. The Ki-61 needed more development time� time Japan just didn�t have.

_____________________________

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 13

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 1:22:54 PM

steveh11Matrix

Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

I've followed this as best I can... :)

This would appear to be the most sensible long term solution to the aircraft upgrade conundrum that I've read. I agree with CM that it would be lovely to have some word on wheter or not we could have it implemented! :)

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 14

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 1:37:03 PM

Oliver Heindorf

Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline

hmmm, imho, the curent system is complicated. YES, there should be some options....imho, the jap prod system should be optional like the allied system ( not adjustable ) ....it is too complicated already for me

and things like above doesnt make it easier for ppl like me

great posts and great ideas !! but for me - way too complicated.
just my 2 cents

_____________________________

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)

Post #: 15

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 2:05:33 PM

Adnan Meshuggi

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline

well the A B C D E F .... solution (Research of Plane A = 1 Point, B = 1/2, C = 1/4....) is the best resarch idea i heared for a long time.

In any game, you can freely decide to preproduce your weapons... but have to pay for it...this could be easily done also for the allied side, just make some more american places, fill em with industry and let him decide what to produce...

if the allied side want the p51 so urgently, he has to go a long way of upgrades... and this would be fine for me... if the allied would sacrifice his advantage of numbers ot achive the p51 in late43 instead of late44 (i speak about the p51d...) this is the choice the gamer has...

too many people forget that the guy who spent his money for the product is the king... this allows a higher interest (at all, the people here at the forum mostly want more freedom of producion, but with limitations (let him pay for changing the production system)

Same with carrierbased planes... why are carriers preequipped ? i think this should be changed. You recive your air groups at a certain time (by the way, it should be possible (for huge costs) to advance the date for airgroups at well (both sides) (and oh, don�t forget army forces... ! In the end, it is a balance between 3 parts...air, naval and landforces...
why should i not sacrifice a few cruisers for an earlier arrivale of some tank divisions ? If it costly enough, why not ? As long as not unhistorical things can happen (like an easy invasion of the westcoast in 1942 cause of hyperproduction of japanese products or 20 essex in spring 43 cause of an overseen failure for the allies....) this would be perfect.

You can�t change ship designs (sadly... why not improve aa-capability at will (it should be very costly)... let the original designs in the game, but give the player the chance to change it... if the brits had to encounter very tough air threat in 1943 and 1944, they would have produced more destroyers with a higher aa capability... this IS historical. Because of the lack of air danger, their destroyers had less aa weapons on board... but more asw-capability...

if the japanese side is a great air danger to british ships, the brit should be able to counter this. Sure, it should be expensive, but to adopt the historical design should be possible... (no, you can�t make a mogami into a yamato bb, but you could put in a lot aa-weapons much earlier as the japanese did - if you produce enough aa-weapons in time (and if you pay the price of the loss of a heavy cruiser and loss of ship poduction capability in this harbor for refitting for half a year (for example).... if you pay this price, you get a better defended ship....
in history, esp. the allies did it with heavily damaged ships at this r

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)

Post #: 16

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 4:25:44 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

"2. The ability to switch factors to produce any aircraft is not historical. Nakajima factories should be only able to produce Nakajima aircraft"

This is basicaly Not True, diferent firms produced planes from diferent companys a lot , in fact all over the world this was doneduring the war. Nakijima actualy Built far more of the Zeros than Mitsubishi did, and their are many more examples to be found.

"The limitation of only allow �X� number of groups flying Tony aircraft is an attempt to model the limitation of the Japanese production system, which could not realistically switch to producing a single type of aircraft or realistically have huge increases in production. "

Retooling would not be that big a deal, while the likelyhood of switching all to this one type in very minimal, basicaly do to political constraints and interservice riverlys, the actual building of is a diferent mater entirely and most easly overcome.

............................

Some Aircraft were Built for both the Army and the Navy, Ki-67 for example.

.......................

"Example: once Ki-84s are available the production rate will be limited to pre-set factories and any the player wishes to switch to this type of aircraft. If he decides to switch two Nakajima factories to Ki-84 they will start at �0� production rate and he will have to expand them. Average expansion will be only six aircraft a month so that after one year these extra two factories will only be producing on average 72 aircraft per month each. "

This is indead a bit over the top, I realy should of followed that long thread on Aircraft production.

...................

I am in favor of research, but I wounder just how much consideration changing the production system is being given by Matrix, espichaly if some of the compleatly wrong statemts and asumptions about the Japanese production system above relative to the real world Historical aspect of this are concerned. The Production system and the ecenomy in WiTP for Japan are extreamly abstracted, for instance Oil Japan did not realy use Oil to run the Industrial Machine, it used Coal, Oil was realy only used to fuel the Machines of War, not the ecenomy, but we dont see Coal in the game, Japan also had fairly large Natrual resources for Coal, but Oil is nescesary to run the empire in more ways than Just Fueling the War Machines, while I am typicaly extreamly anal about the details, this production system is so far from the mark in so many ways I cant realy see the nead to redo it, presently, what I wounder is the underlying reasion for wanting to do so?

"Oil" in the game seems to include all fossil fuel energy sources. For example, there is quite a bit of "oil" production ingame in Manchuria and Hokkaido. In real life, 99% of this was all coal production. The same thing with the area around Sian and Lanchow, and the "oil" centers in Western India. In real life, this was all coal production.

So I think that you can really think of the "oil" you see ingame as hydrocarbons of various types.

Oil is abstracted to be "energy". Resources abstracted to be "strategic materials" like iron ore, other strategic metals, rubber, etc...

It has become clear the entire production system for Japan is a greatly abstracted thing designed to closely simulate delivering war goods for operational use, most for the AI's benifit. They probably should not have opted to give the human player any real control at all. But given that they did, we now see the need or desire by many to make a less abstracted thing and more central focus to the game.

Problem is, the game is a finished product. It is, simply what it is, flawed historic logic or not. If this can be changed to be a bit more palatable to those who want a "better" production system without a total overhaul (remember the AI has to be almost totally rewritten to use any new production system), then fine, go for it. If not, well (gag) I'll have to side with Frag and Co. and say their time is better focused on fixing more "fixable" problems. I still find the game quite amusing, especially with Lemur's scenario.

(in reply to esteban)

Post #: 17

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 5:18:11 PM

vonmoltke

Posts: 182
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Bloomfield, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

"if one factory researching can move the availability date of the Ki-84 up by one month then four such factories should move it up four times faster"

I think you have a good suggestion, but why would 4 factories increase the research 4X faster. I understand what you are saying in game purpose, but how IRL would that be beneficial. If one factory is shut down to produce a prototype, test, modify or new proto, test, ect. why would research benefit from 4 factories trying to do the same thing. Wouldn't that produce a lot more chaos on which proto to turn into production and actually come closer to introducing more than one type of plane?

Just a thought.

You are thinking of four factories each working on the aircraft as a whole. This would not be the case. If multiple factories are working on a prototype, One factory would be the aircraft integrator ("prime") while the others would be working on components of the aircraft ("subs"). In the theoretical example of four factories, one acts as the prime, the other three could be an engine sub, an airframe sub, and a weapons sub.

You'd still hit a wall eventually, because you can only break an aircraft down so far. I'd even argue that there is a number of factories, greater than one, that would result in the most efficient research and production scheme. Implementing that would turn the game into War Industry Tycoon, though.

_____________________________

This space reserved for future expansion

(in reply to Herrbear)

Post #: 18

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 6:11:57 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
since many want to restrict research from following unhistorical paths (i.e. skipping so called weak designs) may I (humbly) suggest the following:
plane D follows plane C follows plane B follows plane A

now:
plane A is researched, available and in production
plane B is in research and 1 plane built equals 1 research point
plane C is still further out and 1 plane built equals 1/2 research points
plane D is still a dream and so 1 plane built equals 1/4 of a research point
and so on.

When plane B gets invented (so to speak)
plane C is worth 1=1
and plane D is worth 1 = 1/2
and so on.

This you model the fact that later designs 'learn' from in-between models. If you want to go directly to plane D, fine but it will be slow.

Excellent idea Rainerle!

I like the concept of " learning from the mistakes" inherent in the ABCD path concept. I like the way it allows you to skip the intermediate steps but at a price. Just guessing, but I suspect that i would be far easier to implement (in code) than some of the more exotic ideas.

Just my two cents

(in reply to Rainerle)

Post #: 19

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 7:27:53 PM

strawbuk

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke

Implementing that would turn the game into War Industry Tycoon, though.

I'd buy that game! As would apparently half the other xl-ite grongards here... I've even got some cover art.

Sadly I could not find the one I was lookng for - fat war profiteer with a cigar!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to vonmoltke)

Post #: 20

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/23/2004 9:07:54 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

"To remove the restrictions imposed by fixed upgrades, but not replace it with another system could easily distort the simulation"

I see what your geting at hear, in a Nut Shell the Fixed upgrade path constricks the player as much if not more than the restrictions I mentioned above in the present sytem: But to be fair we must aknowledge the following:

1) The game upgrade paths are not realy Historic anyway.

2) The game does alow for the player to do better than Japan did historicaly in terms of Aircraft managements and even Airunits in the field.

3) The Game has at best a pore model of the Japanese Piolet traing programe.

4) Many other aspects of the game are very Unhistorical and contrived to force the Mistakes of the Empire apon the player and thuse enshure a Victory for the Allies in the end.

If the Goal of the Simulation is to represent the war in the Pacific to the Nth degree it has alrady fell far short of that in many ways. I beleave the Goal of the System is to aproxamate the feal for the war in the Pacific as it is commonaly felt to be in the Western mind, in this regard I think it comes fairly close to the mark, with many notable and formentioned issues on the OOB thread and elsewhear, even hear now we debate the designe of the Production model, perhaps the most abstracted aspect of the game system, next posably only to the Merchant fleat.

Now having said all that, as the player and virtual "God" of the Empire it would be nice to have the flexabality to pick and chuse which Units get what planes and to be able to Pick your plane type in a more undefined maner than we presently have, with some Obvious constrints:

1) Historic Availabality Dates, which can be modified based on the presnt system, with some more flexabality for Certain Types like the Judy for example a Plane that could of been ready a bit earler.

2)Army and Navy Planes restricted to use by the Servies that Used them, and Alow planes like the Ki-67 which were used by Both services to be done so.

We can Argue the finer points of the Japanese Production system, but in the end it will matter not how all this turns out (numbers produced) The Allies will still overwhealm them in 44/45. What Might Be nice is a Switch that Alows for the Choice Between Unrestricted Upgrades(restriced only as mentioned above) and the Present System...bering in mind that the later is not realy Historicaly corect anyway but caters to the above mentioned goal of the system, and is realy workable and thus abstracted.

"The current fixed upgrades interferes at the operational level and do not reflect the historical options available. I would like to see it changed."

I agree with this statement.

"The current production system does not reflect the historical limitation Japan faced. It should be changed also. "

Perhaps, but we differ I think on the true impact this will have on the game, presently I see some slop built into the system to alow for some hope for the average player, realy almost a plesabo efect...

"you should be able to modify it in the editor. "

This would be Nice to have, be nice to be able to edit ground units to...

"Japanese production did suffer because of all the things you listed, but its major problem was it was trying to do more than it was capable of. The Ki-61 needed more development time� time Japan just didn�t have. "

While this may well be true,how is this to be represented in the game with a system that alows you to total flexabality to manupalate the production regime?, and does so in a very abstracted maner..It could be argued that the Empire could of thrown all the resources it had on one or two plane types, if united to do so and thuse effected a better product and so on ...but they did not, they tryed to do to much at once..we Know with thebenfit of history that the Jack was not as good as the George, particualry the N1K2-J, so we if given the Choice would produce it and focus all our eforts to that end...this is whear the present sytem frustrates the heck out of me, we can cuse to do so but it will do us no good because of upgrade path limatations. Many Plane types on Both sides could of been better if given longer gestation periouds, look at the F4U and how long it took to get on a CV, at lest to the Navys liking.

_____________________________

Beta Team Member for:

WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

(in reply to strawbuk)

Post #: 21

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/24/2004 12:37:56 PM

Culiacan Mexico

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
� the player and virtual "God" of the Empire it would be nice to have the flexabality to pick and chuse which Units get what planes and to be able to Pick your plane type in a more undefined maner than we presently have, with some Obvious constrints:

1) Historic Availabality Dates, which can be modified based on the presnt system, with some more flexabality for Certain Types like the Judy for example a Plane that could of been ready a bit earler.

2)Army and Navy Planes restricted to use by the Servies that Used them, and Alow planes like the Ki-67 which were used by Both services to be done so.

�It could be argued that the Empire could of thrown all the resources it had on one or two plane types, if united to do so and thuse effected a better product and so on ...but they did not, they tryed to do to much at once..we Know with thebenfit of history that the Jack was not as good as the George, particualry the N1K2-J, so we if given the Choice would produce it and focus all our eforts to that end...this is whear the present sytem frustrates the heck out of me, we can cuse to do so but it will do us no good because of upgrade path limatations�

I think we agree the current system could use a �tweak�. I think the biggest challenge the Japanese player faces, as it relates to the air war, is pilot quality. The present system of pilot quality/repalcement is unlikely to be changed, but there are steps that can be taken by the player to counter it� to some extent. Mogami has developed a system that helps, but I think more is needed.

The removal of fixed upgrade will only happen if a system is devised that models some of the historic limitation that the Japanese labored under. How do you model the limitations of history, while allowing player flexibility? Our suggestions on that model could add enormously to our enjoyment of this game. IMO

_____________________________

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 22

RE: Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production - 8/25/2004 6:22:34 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

It would be nice thats for shure if somthing could be done but it is an interesting problem, realy I feal the 10 per month figure is a slap in the face and a real joke, be nice if this were at the least doubled.

_____________________________

Beta Team Member for:

WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)

Post #: 23

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Because Mr. Frag asked... Upgrades/Production

Page: [1]