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Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/20/2004 1:22:21 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		A stunning carrer, peaking to commander of 6th SS Panzer Armee, and a brilliant motivator for his soldiers, a true Nazi believer and close friend to Hitler. However, according to some, he was "utterly dim", and his tactical perception was totally absent, unable to grasp even the most basic consepts.

Tim Ripley in "Steel Rain : Waffen-SS panzer battles in the West 1944-1945" does not claim Dietrich to be a military genius, but say "he was far from stupid".

So, how stupid was he really? How was he looked upon by his subordinates?


JT
Post #: 1
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/20/2004 2:04:04 PM   
frank1970


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From: Bayern
Status: offline 		Dietrich wasn´t a military genius, but he was liked by his men. Additionally Dietrich wasn´t a too good friend of Himmler or other SS Bigheads: Eg After Heydrichs death he said he was happy the pig was dead.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dietrich.html
http://www.fact-index.com/j/jo/joseph_dietrich.html
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/Dietrich_Josef.html
http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/dietrich.html

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/20/2004 7:15:57 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

A stunning carrer, peaking to commander of 6th SS Panzer Armee, and a brilliant motivator for his soldiers, a true Nazi believer and close friend to Hitler. However, according to some, he was "utterly dim", and his tactical perception was totally absent, unable to grasp even the most basic consepts.

Tim Ripley in "Steel Rain : Waffen-SS panzer battles in the West 1944-1945" does not claim Dietrich to be a military genius, but say "he was far from stupid".

So, how stupid was he really? How was he looked upon by his subordinates?


JT




Although not the brightest bulb on the tree Sepp knew how to pick his friends and new who's ass to kiss to insure him a prominant role in the Nazi party.

Sepp liked to visit the front lines and trade stories with his men to make it seem he was a real soldier.He was good at hiding his weakness's as a commander.

The only thing IMO Sepp ever did or say that made muxh sense was this quote...."We are called the sixth panzer army because we only have six tanks left"

He was at least smart enough to know the "jig was up" and didnt think much of Hitlers order for the LSSAH to remove their armbands.

Sepp may have been a good figure for the men to look to but I feel that any exp soldiers and subordinate commanders knew Sepp was weak in the tactical field.Sepp knew it as well and left complex planning to swifter Jr officers.

< Message edited by riverbravo -- 8/20/2004 5:16:54 PM >

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/20/2004 7:35:12 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo


Sepp may have been a good figure for the men to look to but I feel that any exp soldiers and subordinate commanders knew Sepp was weak in the tactical field.Sepp knew it as well and left complex planning to swifter Jr officers.


A man smart enough to recognise his own weaknesses at least and to delegate those responsibilites when necessary. Strangely enough that is the mark of a good commander!

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/22/2004 4:33:45 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
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From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline 		I think he must have had some talent to last as long as he did. Remember the Liebstandarte were present just about every time things got rough. I do think he got promoted above his station, though. What might have saved him, was that by the time he had been promoted further than his abilities warranted (late 43 and the creation of 1st SS PanzerKorp) imagination was maybe not as necessary as it once was.

Normany was largely static defence and a counterattack that failed miserably through no fault of his. The Ardennes was a tactical battle. Let the KGs loose and then just watch, it was Peiper's battle more than it was Dietrich's, and by Lake Balaton, I don't think anyone has any expectations of success by German arms so no one bothers to criticise him there, either.

Maybe the word solid describes his leadership best.

Regards,
IronDuke

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/22/2004 8:00:07 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Dietrich wasn´t a military genius, but he was liked by his men. Additionally Dietrich wasn´t a too good friend of Himmler or other SS Bigheads: Eg After Heydrichs death he said he was happy the pig was dead.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dietrich.html
http://www.fact-index.com/j/jo/joseph_dietrich.html
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/Dietrich_Josef.html
http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/dietrich.html



There is no doubt that SS-Oberstgruppenfuhrer und General der Waffen SS Josef (Sepp) Dietrich was a man who was very brave, was devoted to his soldiers, and who led them through some of the fiercest fighting and harshest conditions of the war.

However, it is impossible to disassociate Dietrich from the excesses of the Hitler regime. His position was far too close to the heart of the Nazi Party and to Hitler himself for him to have been other than an accessory after the fact of much that befell, despite his protestation that he was first and foremost a non-political soldier.

In 1928, Dietrich became a member of the Schutzstaffell (SS) and his merits caught the eye of Adolph Hitler who chose him to lead his personal bodyguard unit. In 1934, Dietrich's SS guards provided a seven-man execution squad during the "Night of the Long Knives" (June 28-29, 1934) when SA leader Ernst Röhm and his SA comrades were murdered.

After fighting the Red Army, Dietrich was heavily criticized for ordering the execution of Russian prisoners. He was responsible for atrocities in the Ukrainian districts of Kharkov-Kherson which took place between 1941 and 1943.

Later Dietrich fought in the Ardennes in 1944, where he was found complicit in the massacre of U.S. soldiers near Malmedy.

He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.

He was tried and convicted of killing prisoners of war and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment.

He was released after serving only 10 years; however, he was then arrested and charged for the murders committed during the Night of the Long Knives. Those offenses brought a sentence of 18 months. He died of a heart attack in 1966.

Despite Dietrich's devotion to Hitler throughout the war, towards the end, I think, he was becoming disillusioned with Hitler, as evidenced by the "Chamber pot filled with medals" he sent to Hitler.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 2:57:32 AM   
Golf33

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Later Dietrich fought in the Ardennes in 1944, where he was found complicit in the massacre of U.S. soldiers near Malmedy.

He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.

He was tried and convicted of killing prisoners of war and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment.

He was released after serving only 10 years; however, he was then arrested and charged for the murders committed during the Night of the Long Knives. Those offenses brought a sentence of 18 months. He died of a heart attack in 1966.

One of the reasons the original sentences were commuted (not only Dietrich's but also Peiper's and others) was the kangaroo-court nature of the original investigation and trial. It was rather effectively discredited shortly before the executions were due to take place, with one US Senator describing it as "Gestapo and OGPU tactics used by the U.S. Army" (Senator McCarthy, quoted in Dupuy et al, The Battle of the Bulge, HarperCollins, 1994).

Dupuy et al also go on to say
quote:

There does not appear to be hard evidence tying a policy of "take no prisoners" to Sepp Dietrich, the army commander, or to Hermann Priess, the corps commander, or to Wilhelm Mohnke, the division commander.


I rather agree with the rest of your assessment however, and even if he wasn't directly responsible for Malmedy, Dietrich was still an odious character of great brutality, like all of the senior Nazis.

Regards
33

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 3:04:33 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

Von Rom
He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.


Not exactly, he surrendered to a US Master Sergeant of the 36th Infantry Division. The Sergeant was less than impressed, deciding Dietrich reminded him more of a Grocer than a Panzer General. He was caught at Kufstein. He had his wife with him and it is possible that he was attempting to smuggle her into Switzerland. He had been away from his Army reporting to OKW South only to find it had surrendered. He seems to have decided at that point to make his own escape, rather than return to his unit.

His Army (or what was left of it) was miles away in the Enns-Steyr Sector. It surrendered to the Amercians although most of the LSSAH seem to have been waved through American lines. Only the HitlerJugend seems to have been locked up initially.

quote:

Despite Dietrich's devotion to Hitler throughout the war, towards the end, I think, he was becoming disillusioned with Hitler, as evidenced by the "Chamber pot filled with medals" he sent to Hitler.


Apocryphal. Some versions suggest the arm of an SS Soldier was also sent to Hitler. I presume this story is alleged to have happened after the removal of the Cuff band order. Dietrich was undoubtedly shocked by this order, and said "This is the thanks for everything." However, he forbade his Corp Commanders from passing the order on. It leaked out, but had no practical effect. The cuff bands bearing Hitler's name had been removed from LSSAH and HJ uniforms already as part of the deception measures for the Balaton offensive. After the war, some Senior veterans of the LSSAH and HJ attempted to blame Balck for this order, believing Hitler had been posioned against them by negative reports from him to Guderian. However badly they felt about the order, it seems they couldn't wholly believe Hitler had turned against them.

IronDuke

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 6:38:33 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Golf33

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Later Dietrich fought in the Ardennes in 1944, where he was found complicit in the massacre of U.S. soldiers near Malmedy.

He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.

He was tried and convicted of killing prisoners of war and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment.

He was released after serving only 10 years; however, he was then arrested and charged for the murders committed during the Night of the Long Knives. Those offenses brought a sentence of 18 months. He died of a heart attack in 1966.

One of the reasons the original sentences were commuted (not only Dietrich's but also Peiper's and others) was the kangaroo-court nature of the original investigation and trial. It was rather effectively discredited shortly before the executions were due to take place, with one US Senator describing it as "Gestapo and OGPU tactics used by the U.S. Army" (Senator McCarthy, quoted in Dupuy et al, The Battle of the Bulge, HarperCollins, 1994).

Dupuy et al also go on to say
quote:

There does not appear to be hard evidence tying a policy of "take no prisoners" to Sepp Dietrich, the army commander, or to Hermann Priess, the corps commander, or to Wilhelm Mohnke, the division commander.


I rather agree with the rest of your assessment however, and even if he wasn't directly responsible for Malmedy, Dietrich was still an odious character of great brutality, like all of the senior Nazis.

Regards
33


I agree that the trials were rushed.

However, three issues about Malmeady do present themselves:

1) About 100 US soldiers were massacred.

2) Hitler had issued a "terror" order for those German troops advancing in the Ardennes.

3) Did the officers in charge (Detrich, Peiper, etc) know about this order, and did they shoot unarmed POWs?

Rommel, for example, was issued an order by Hitler to shoot all Allied commandos, among others in North Africa. To his credit, Rommel tore up the order, and his troops never knew about it. Here is a sterling example of an officer who placed his duty as a professional soldier above that of any orders of this nature by Hitler.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 6:45:50 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

Von Rom
He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.


Not exactly, he surrendered to a US Master Sergeant of the 36th Infantry Division. The Sergeant was less than impressed, deciding Dietrich reminded him more of a Grocer than a Panzer General. He was caught at Kufstein. He had his wife with him and it is possible that he was attempting to smuggle her into Switzerland. He had been away from his Army reporting to OKW South only to find it had surrendered. He seems to have decided at that point to make his own escape, rather than return to his unit.

His Army (or what was left of it) was miles away in the Enns-Steyr Sector. It surrendered to the Amercians although most of the LSSAH seem to have been waved through American lines. Only the HitlerJugend seems to have been locked up initially.

quote:

Despite Dietrich's devotion to Hitler throughout the war, towards the end, I think, he was becoming disillusioned with Hitler, as evidenced by the "Chamber pot filled with medals" he sent to Hitler.


Apocryphal. Some versions suggest the arm of an SS Soldier was also sent to Hitler. I presume this story is alleged to have happened after the removal of the Cuff band order. Dietrich was undoubtedly shocked by this order, and said "This is the thanks for everything." However, he forbade his Corp Commanders from passing the order on. It leaked out, but had no practical effect. The cuff bands bearing Hitler's name had been removed from LSSAH and HJ uniforms already as part of the deception measures for the Balaton offensive. After the war, some Senior veterans of the LSSAH and HJ attempted to blame Balck for this order, believing Hitler had been posioned against them by negative reports from him to Guderian. However badly they felt about the order, it seems they couldn't wholly believe Hitler had turned against them.

IronDuke




quote:

Not exactly, he surrendered to a US Master Sergeant of the 36th Infantry Division. The Sergeant was less than impressed, deciding Dietrich reminded him more of a Grocer than a Panzer General. He was caught at Kufstein. He had his wife with him and it is possible that he was attempting to smuggle her into Switzerland. He had been away from his Army reporting to OKW South only to find it had surrendered. He seems to have decided at that point to make his own escape, rather than return to his unit.

His Army (or what was left of it) was miles away in the Enns-Steyr Sector. It surrendered to the Amercians although most of the LSSAH seem to have been waved through American lines. Only the HitlerJugend seems to have been locked up initially.


I know

But I said in one sentence what it took you to say in eight sentences.

The above individuals were representing their respective armies. Just as a spokesperson speaks for the president.

quote:

Apocryphal. Some versions suggest the arm of an SS Soldier was also sent to Hitler. I presume this story is alleged to have happened after the removal of the Cuff band order. Dietrich was undoubtedly shocked by this order, and said "This is the thanks for everything." However, he forbade his Corp Commanders from passing the order on. It leaked out, but had no practical effect. The cuff bands bearing Hitler's name had been removed from LSSAH and HJ uniforms already as part of the deception measures for the Balaton offensive. After the war, some Senior veterans of the LSSAH and HJ attempted to blame Balck for this order, believing Hitler had been posioned against them by negative reports from him to Guderian. However badly they felt about the order, it seems they couldn't wholly believe Hitler had turned against them.



Whether true or not I was trying to be kind to Dietrich, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

He was a cross between a toady, a butcher, and a good soldier.

I hope that as the war progressed, he became less of a toady and more of a soldier, and saw Hitler for what he was.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/23/2004 4:47:37 PM >

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 7:32:26 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom


I agree that the trials were rushed.

However, three issues about Malmeady do present themselves:

1) About 100 US soldiers were massacred.

2) Hitler had issued a "terror" order for those German troops advancing in the Ardennes.

3) Did the officers in charge (Detrich, Peiper, etc) know about this order, and did they shoot unarmed POWs?



I've never read of Hitler's 'terror' order so could you provide a quote and a source.

Regarding 3), Peiper took full responsibility for the Malmedy massacre because the troops who were responsible were under his command (although he was not present). However, there were no German survivors from those who perpetrated the act so we'll never have a full account of what happened or the events leading up to it.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 8:52:35 PM   
Von Rom


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Status: offline 		EricGuitarJames

quote:

I've never read of Hitler's 'terror' order so could you provide a quote and a source.



In the Battle of the Bulge there were planned atrocities.

The worst one was the murder of eighty-six POWs of the 7th Armored Div. on Dec. 17th near Malmedy. Hitler had ordered "a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown."

Elements of Lt. Col. Jocahim Peiper's SS command had committed the "Malmedy Massacre." In the first four days of the battle, Peiper's men murdered approximately 350 American POWs and 100 unarmed Belgian civilians. Word of this activity spread surprisingly fast among American troops.


The Following Information is from the US Army Official History of the Battle of the Bulge:



It was between noon and one o'clock of 17 December, on the road between Modersheid and Ligneuville, that the German advance guard ran into an American truck convoy moving south from Malmedy. This was ill-fated Battery B of the 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion. The convoy was shot up and the advance guard rolled on, leaving the troops to the rear to deal with the Americans who had taken to the woods and ditches. About two hours after, or so the dazed survivors later recalled, the Americans who had been rounded up were marched into a field where, at a signal, they were shot down by machine gun and pistol fire. A few escaped by feigning death, but the wounded who moved or screamed were sought out and shot through the head. At least eighty-six Americans were massacred here. This was not the first killing of unarmed prisoners chargeable to Kampfgruppe Peiper on 17 December. Irrefutable evidence shows that nineteen unarmed Americans were shot down at Honsfeld and fifty at Bullingen. [3]

The Malmedy massacre would have repercussions reaching far wider than one might expect of a single battlefield atrocity in a long and bitter war. This "incident" undoubtedly stiffened the will of the American combatants (although a quantitative assessment of this fact is impossible); it would be featured in the war crimes trials as an outstanding example of Nazi contempt for the accepted rules of war; and it would serve a United States Senator as a stepping-stone toward a meteoric career. But the Malmedy massacre and the other murders of 17 December did not complete the list chargeable to Peiper and the troops of the 1st SS Panzer Division. By 20 December Peiper's command had murdered approximately 350 American prisoners of war and at least 100 unarmed Belgian civilians, this total derived from killings at twelve different locations along Peiper's line of march.

So far as can be determined the Peiper killings represent the only organized and directed murder of prisoners of war by either side during the Ardennes battle. [4] The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded "by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown."

There is conflicting testimony as to whether the orders finally reaching Peiper specifically enjoined the shooting of prisoners. There is no question, however, that some of Peiper's subordinates accepted the killing of prisoners as a command and that on at least one occasion Peiper himself gave such an order. Why Peiper's command gained the bestial distinction of being the only unit to kill prisoners in the course of the Ardennes is a subject of surmise. Peiper had been an adjutant to Heinrich Himmler and as a battalion commander in Russia is alleged to have burned two villages and killed all the inhabitants.

The veteran SS troops he led in the Ardennes had long experience on the Eastern Front where brutality toward prisoners of war was a common-place. On the other hand Peiper's formation was well in the van of the German attack and was thus in position to carry out the orders for the "wave of terror" tactic-which might be excused, or so Peiper claimed, by the rapid movement of his kampfgruppe and its inability to retain prisoners under guard.

The speed with which the news of the Malmedy massacre reached the American front-line troops is amazing but, in the perfervid emotional climate of 17 December, quite understandable. The first survivors of the massacre were picked up by a patrol from the 291st Engineer Combat Battalion about 1430 on that date. The inspector general of the First Army learned of the shootings three or four hours later. Yet by the late evening of the 17th the rumor that the enemy was killing prisoners had reached as far as the forward American divisions (pp. 262-264).



FOOTNOTES:

[2] Ch. VIII.

[3] The massacres perpetrated by Peiper's troops were the subject of a special Congressional investigation: 81st Cong., 1st sess., Report of the Subcommittee on Armed Services, United States Senate, Malmedy Massacre Investigation (dated 13 October 1949). Cf., Records of the War Crimes Branch, USFET, 1946. The postwar SS view of the Malmedy incident is given in Paul Hausser's Waffen-SS im Einsatz (Goettingen, 1953), pp. 242-47.

[4] Hitler's order to take no prisoners probably had wide circulation. Lt. Col. George Mabry, commander of the 2d Battalion, 8th Infantry, has stated that his unit captured a German colonel from the Seventh Army who had such an order. Ltr, Gen Barton to author, 17 Nov 59.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/23/2004 7:13:40 PM >

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/23/2004 9:15:30 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline 		Other Sources for the massacre:

Sepp Dietrich, "the organizer of the Fuehrer's bodyguard. Dietrich carried out Hitler's personal murder assignments" and, Tetens continues, "was in charge of the liquidation of the Jewish population in the city of Kharkov. During the Battle of the Bulge his troops committed the Malmedy massacre, killing more than 600 military and civilian prisoners, among them 115 American G.I.s. He was sentenced to death, and the sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment.

(T.H. Tetens, "The New Germany and the Old Nazis", p. 103 )

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 2:43:13 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Status: offline 		Von Rom, I wasn't asking for a source on the massacre (I have MacDonalds book on the 'Bulge and he goes into some detail), what I'd like is some detail on Hitler's supposed 'terror' order that you mentioned.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 5:23:10 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Von Rom, I wasn't asking for a source on the massacre (I have MacDonalds book on the 'Bulge and he goes into some detail), what I'd like is some detail on Hitler's supposed 'terror' order that you mentioned.


For a second time:

From the above source:


"So far as can be determined the Peiper killings represent the only organized and directed murder of prisoners of war by either side during the Ardennes battle. [4] The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded 'by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown.'"


There are other sources but that one will do.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 6:26:27 PM   
riverbravo


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From: Bay St Louis Ms.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
.

Regarding 3), Peiper took full responsibility for the Malmedy massacre because the troops who were responsible were under his command (although he was not present). However, there were no German survivors from those who perpetrated the act so we'll never have a full account of what happened or the events leading up to it.



SS-Leibstandarte The history of the first SS division 1933-45,page 139-40

Peipers spearhead then moved in the direction of Ligneuville,on the road to Stavelot.At some of point during this movement of half-tracks,motorcycles,tanks and SP's,fierce pistol and automatic fire from two Mark IV's poured into the defenceless prisoners,along with the cry of "kill them all!"It was later alleged that one man responsible for the very early shots was an assistant gunner, SS-Rottenfuhrer George Fleps,21,a volunterr from romania.

Second Lieuteneant Virgil T Lary of the US army,togehter with his colleague Ken Aherns ,who had been wounded twice in the back,later recalled that the cessation of machine-gun fire was followed by pistolo shots ,as the "coup de grace" was administered.The SS men walked among the bodies to detect any sign of life ,kicking them in the face and kidneys.On the nearby road,tanks ran over the bodies of those who had managed to escape from the meadow.During the afternoon,Colonel David E. Pergrin,whose,291st Combat Engineer Battalion was defending Malmedy,heard machine-gun fire and shouting, before encountering four men stumbling out of the woods, who blurted out the first details of the massacre to reach the Americans.The next day 1st US Army flashed the news to SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary force) and 12th Army Group.The order was given that the Malmedy massacre should be given the wides publicity.

At the same time snow was forming on the crossroads, shrouding the bodies,the survivors of Malmedy were being interviewed by two journalist,Hal Boyle and Jack Belden of the magazine Time.Before long,328th US Infantry Regimant was issuing an order that no SS troops or paratroopers would be taken prisoner,but would be shot on sight.As for Dietrich, he claimed that poor communications left him in ignorance of the massacre until 21 December, when he was handed a transcript of a report from a radio broadcast form Soldatsender Calais, a British propaganda station run the journalsit Sefton Delmer. When questioned after the war, Dietrich denied recieving the transcript, conceding only that he had heard about 'some form of atrocity' around that time.Nevertheless, he had ordered an immediate investigation and, predictable, came against a solid wall of denial.


Yea....I bet good ole Sepp really dove in head first trying to get to the bottom of this

< Message edited by riverbravo -- 8/24/2004 4:28:51 PM >

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:11:43 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Von Rom, I wasn't asking for a source on the massacre (I have MacDonalds book on the 'Bulge and he goes into some detail), what I'd like is some detail on Hitler's supposed 'terror' order that you mentioned.


For a second time:

From the above source:


"So far as can be determined the Peiper killings represent the only organized and directed murder of prisoners of war by either side during the Ardennes battle. [4] The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded 'by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown.'"


There are other sources but that one will do.


No it will not do! It's Dietrich claiming it was Hitler's order! I would like you to source the actual order, not some SS general attempting to absolve himself of blame!

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Post #: 17
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:17:31 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
.

Regarding 3), Peiper took full responsibility for the Malmedy massacre because the troops who were responsible were under his command (although he was not present). However, there were no German survivors from those who perpetrated the act so we'll never have a full account of what happened or the events leading up to it.



SS-Leibstandarte The history of the first SS division 1933-45,page 139-40

Peipers spearhead then moved in the direction of Ligneuville,on the road to Stavelot.At some of point during this movement of half-tracks,motorcycles,tanks and SP's,fierce pistol and automatic fire from two Mark IV's poured into the defenceless prisoners,along with the cry of "kill them all!"It was later alleged that one man responsible for the very early shots was an assistant gunner, SS-Rottenfuhrer George Fleps,21,a volunterr from romania.

Second Lieuteneant Virgil T Lary of the US army,togehter with his colleague Ken Aherns ,who had been wounded twice in the back,later recalled that the cessation of machine-gun fire was followed by pistolo shots ,as the "coup de grace" was administered.The SS men walked among the bodies to detect any sign of life ,kicking them in the face and kidneys.On the nearby road,tanks ran over the bodies of those who had managed to escape from the meadow.During the afternoon,Colonel David E. Pergrin,whose,291st Combat Engineer Battalion was defending Malmedy,heard machine-gun fire and shouting, before encountering four men stumbling out of the woods, who blurted out the first details of the massacre to reach the Americans.The next day 1st US Army flashed the news to SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary force) and 12th Army Group.The order was given that the Malmedy massacre should be given the wides publicity.

At the same time snow was forming on the crossroads, shrouding the bodies,the survivors of Malmedy were being interviewed by two journalist,Hal Boyle and Jack Belden of the magazine Time.Before long,328th US Infantry Regimant was issuing an order that no SS troops or paratroopers would be taken prisoner,but would be shot on sight.As for Dietrich, he claimed that poor communications left him in ignorance of the massacre until 21 December, when he was handed a transcript of a report from a radio broadcast form Soldatsender Calais, a British propaganda station run the journalsit Sefton Delmer. When questioned after the war, Dietrich denied recieving the transcript, conceding only that he had heard about 'some form of atrocity' around that time.Nevertheless, he had ordered an immediate investigation and, predictable, came against a solid wall of denial.


Yea....I bet good ole Sepp really dove in head first trying to get to the bottom of this


Oh undoubtedly. But the perpetraters of the crime were dead by the end of the war and so weren't available to be interrogated. Thus the only version of events we'll ever have is that of the survivors. A German account would at least shed some more light on the circumstances surrounding the massacre.

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Post #: 18
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:33:04 PM   
Error in 0


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quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
Before long,328th US Infantry Regimant was issuing an order that no SS troops or paratroopers would be taken prisoner,but would be shot on sight.



Did anyone investigate if 328 committed any warcrime as of this order?



JT

< Message edited by JallaTryne -- 8/24/2004 6:33:40 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:36:51 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Von Rom, I wasn't asking for a source on the massacre (I have MacDonalds book on the 'Bulge and he goes into some detail), what I'd like is some detail on Hitler's supposed 'terror' order that you mentioned.


For a second time:

From the above source:


"So far as can be determined the Peiper killings represent the only organized and directed murder of prisoners of war by either side during the Ardennes battle. [4] The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded 'by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown.'"


There are other sources but that one will do.


No it will not do! It's Dietrich claiming it was Hitler's order! I would like you to source the actual order, not some SS general attempting to absolve himself of blame!




1) The facts stated above are from the US Army Official History of the Battle of the Bulge by Hugh M. Cole. These facts have NEVER been disputed.

2) Hitler held a conference on Dec 12, 1944. This conference was attended by Hitler's top generals, with Dietrich among them. Hitler swore them all to secrecy.

3) In the trials in 1946, Dietrich, under oath, swore that he was acting on Hitler's orders (from that Dec 12, 1944 conference), and issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded "by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown." Why on earth, as commander of 6th Army, would Dietrich issue such an order on his own volition??

4) As for Dietrich attempting to absolve himself of blame: He, along with dozens of other German soldiers, were sentenced for their crimes. How does his acting on Hitler's orders absolve him?

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/28/2004 11:46:20 PM >

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:41:26 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline 		Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then


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Post #: 21
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:49:50 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then



LOL

Oh, man. . .

The sworn testimony of the German General (Dietrich) who was actually AT THE Dec 12, 1944 CONFERENCE is NOT hearsay. He swore he actually heard Hitler say it. And Hitler ordered all German generals present to SECRECY.

The US Army Official History has NEVER been refuted as to the facts surounding this issue.

LOL

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Post #: 22
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 8:55:39 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

Posts: 957
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From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then



LOL

Oh, man. . .

The sworn testimony of the German General (Dietrich) who was actually AT THE Dec 12, 1944 CONFERENCE is NOT hearsay. He swore he actually heard Hitler say it. And Hitler ordered all German generals present to SECRECY.

The US Army Official History has NEVER been refuted as to the facts surounding this issue.

LOL


The only fact here is that Dietrich said it. There is no corroborating evidence. Therefore it's the word of a convicted criminal however it is spun. It's still hearsay

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Post #: 23
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 9:03:03 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then



LOL

Oh, man. . .

The sworn testimony of the German General (Dietrich) who was actually AT THE Dec 12, 1944 CONFERENCE is NOT hearsay. He swore he actually heard Hitler say it. And Hitler ordered all German generals present to SECRECY.

The US Army Official History has NEVER been refuted as to the facts surounding this issue.

LOL


The only fact here is that Dietrich said it. There is no corroborating evidence. Therefore it's the word of a convicted criminal however it is spun. It's still hearsay


The only thing US Army Official History claims to be fact is that Dietrich said it was Hitlers intentions. If it really was so, we cannot know for a fact. However, it would not be shocking if it was true .



JT

(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 24
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 9:04:49 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then



LOL

Oh, man. . .

The sworn testimony of the German General (Dietrich) who was actually AT THE Dec 12, 1944 CONFERENCE is NOT hearsay. He swore he actually heard Hitler say it. And Hitler ordered all German generals present to SECRECY.

The US Army Official History has NEVER been refuted as to the facts surounding this issue.

LOL


The only fact here is that Dietrich said it. There is no corroborating evidence. Therefore it's the word of a convicted criminal however it is spun. It's still hearsay



You have NO IDEA what hearsay even means.

Dietrich's sworn statements ARE DIRECT TESTIMONY. He was ACTUALLY at the conference.

While Dietrich may be a convicted criminal, he was also a General, and was in command of the 6th SS Panzer Army. So his testimony carries weight.


Definitions of hearsay on the Web:

gossip (usually a mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


heard through another rather than directly; "hearsay information"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


Statements by a witness who did not see or hear the incident in question but heard about it from someone else. Hearsay is usually not admissible as evidence in court.
www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/kidspage/glossary.html


Any evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them. For example, if Bob heard from Susan about an accident that Susan witnessed but that Bob had not, and Bob attempted to repeat Susan's story in court, it could be objected to as "hearsay." The basic rule, when testifying in court, is that you can only provide information of which you have direct knowledge. In other words, hearsay evidence is not allowed. Hearsay evidence is also referred to as "second-hand evidence" or as "rumor." You are able to tell a court what you heard, to repeat the rumor, and testify that, in fact, the story you heard was told to you, but under the hearsay rule, your testimony would not be evidence of the actual facts of the story but only that you heard those words spoken.
www.duhaime.org/dictionary/dict-gh.htm


Information given to a witness by another person. The witness did not see the information first hand. The witness does not have personal knowledge of the original event. Hearsay is not admissible in court.
www.saskjustice.gov.sk.ca/courts/court_terms/court_terms.shtml


What someone else has been heard to say as contrasted with direct hearing.
www.fire.org.uk/legterms.htm


– Evidence based on what the witness has heard someone else say rather than what the witness has personally experienced or observed.
port.inst.cl.uh.edu/portfolio/FassburgT/glossary.htm


evidence based on what the witness has heard someone else say, rather than what he has personally experienced.
www.alacourt.org/Publications/Glossary/h.htm

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/24/2004 7:16:03 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 9:10:46 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Oh I see, we're working on heresay and the testimony of a convicted murderer. Up to your usual standards then



LOL

Oh, man. . .

The sworn testimony of the German General (Dietrich) who was actually AT THE Dec 12, 1944 CONFERENCE is NOT hearsay. He swore he actually heard Hitler say it. And Hitler ordered all German generals present to SECRECY.

The US Army Official History has NEVER been refuted as to the facts surounding this issue.

LOL


The only fact here is that Dietrich said it. There is no corroborating evidence. Therefore it's the word of a convicted criminal however it is spun. It's still hearsay


The only thing US Army Official History claims to be fact is that Dietrich said it was Hitlers intentions. If it really was so, we cannot know for a fact. However, it would not be shocking if it was true .



JT



Also from the Official History:

"Hitler's order to take no prisoners probably had wide circulation. Lt. Col. George Mabry, commander of the 2d Battalion, 8th Infantry, has stated that his unit captured a German colonel from the Seventh Army who had such an order. Ltr, Gen Barton to author, 17 Nov 59."

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/24/2004 7:13:25 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 9:49:28 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		From what I read here I agree that alot point towards Hitler giving such an order. But to be pedantic, I would rather use statements like 'overwhelming indications of', 'strongly points towards' etc instead of 'fact'. It becomes a fact if one actually had such an signed order on paper or equivalent.

I think there is a leap from the quote (from US Military History)
quote:


The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded 'by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown.'"

to
quote:


Hitler's order to take no prisoners probably had wide circulation.


The first pointing out what Dietrich said, the other claiming it to be fact. I guess there must be a chain of arguments betwen these, but you do not have to print these von Rom. I agree it is likely Hitler ordered this atrocities. After all, apparantly the US 328 was also given similar orders! Again, did anyone investigate if they committed war crimes?



JT

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 27
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 10:08:09 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

From what I read here I agree that alot point towards Hitler giving such an order. But to be pedantic, I would rather use statements like 'overwhelming indications of', 'strongly points towards' etc instead of 'fact'. It becomes a fact if one actually had such an signed order on paper or equivalent.

I think there is a leap from the quote (from US Military History)
quote:


The commander of the Sixth SS Panzer Army [Sepp Dietrich] took oath in the trials of 1946 that, acting on Hitler's orders, he issued a directive stating that the German troops should be preceded 'by a wave of terror and fright and that no human inhibitions should be shown.'"

to
quote:


Hitler's order to take no prisoners probably had wide circulation.


The first pointing out what Dietrich said, the other claiming it to be fact. I guess there must be a chain of arguments betwen these, but you do not have to print these von Rom. I agree it is likely Hitler ordered this atrocities. After all, apparantly the US 328 was also given similar orders! Again, did anyone investigate if they committed war crimes?



JT


Well, General Dietrich testified as to Hitler's "wave of terror" order which he then promulgated to the troops of 6th army.

Other German officers (the German Colonel from 7th Army) also testified as to the "take no prisoners" order, and this adds more credibility to Dietrich's testimony.

Further, if the massacre was confined to just Malmedy, then there could be room for doubt.

However, in addition to the 81 GIs murdered at Malmedy, an additional 300 or so US soldiers and 80+ Belgium civilians were also murdered in 12 different locations, and all along Peiper's route of advance.

Is this all just coincidence?

As to the US shooting of German prisoners:

In addition to the massacre at Malmedy being well known a few hours after it happened, it was also known that German paratroopers, led by SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny, and DRESSED AS AMERICAN MPs, were operating behind the American lines.

Since these German soldiers were dressed as Americans, they were treated as spies and some were shot. Skorzney, however, survived the war.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 8/24/2004 8:14:41 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 10:37:53 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

As to the US shooting of German prisoners:

In addition to the massacre at Malmedy being well known a few hours after it happened, it was also known that German paratroopers, led by SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny, and DRESSED AS AMERICAN MPs, were operating behind the American lines.

Since these German soldiers were dressed as Americans, they were treated as spies and some were shot. Skorzney, however, survived the war.


It was stated in this thread that the orders issued by the US commanders were to take no SS or paratroopers prisoner. Not that they had to be dressed up like US men.

Do you know of any allied soldier sentenced for war crimes?


JT

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 29
RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich - 8/24/2004 11:11:39 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
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quote:

Von Rom
He surrendered his army to U.S. General George C. Patton on May 8, 1945.


quote:

IronDuke
Not exactly, he surrendered to a US Master Sergeant of the 36th Infantry Division.


quote:

Von Rom

I know

But I said in one sentence what it took you to say in eight sentences.

The above individuals were representing their respective armies. Just as a spokesperson speaks for the president.



Oh dear. I'm sorry, you just gave me the impression that you were trying to praise Patton again, giving him credit for something he had less to do with than usual. I'm assuming that you're saying the Master Sergeant represented Patton, Dietrich his Panzer Armee.

I've done a little research. I'd like your opinion (indeed any thread readers opinion and help)because late war American OOBs are not a strongppoint for me.

Michael Reynolds Men of Steel tells me (and you claim you know and agree with this) that Dietrich surrendered to a Master Sergeant of the 36th on or shortly after 8 May.

Shelby Stanton's Order of Battle: US Army in WWII tells me the 36th joined XXI Corp on 27th April 1945. He also tells me it finished the war in Kustrin, Austria which supports the claim it was this unit Dietrich surrendered to as he was caught in Kustrin.

John Ellis's The World War II databook says 36 Division did indeed belong to XXI Corp and that XXI Corp belonged to the Seventh US Army on 30th April.

I'm not sure who commanded Seventh Army at this time except it was either General Patch or General Keyes, a fact I picked up from Carlo D'Este's book on Patton.

I'd appreciate any help corrodorating these facts, but if I'm correct, and 36th Division belonged to 7th Army, and Patton (as I understand it although you are the Forum "expert") commanded 3rd Army, how was the Master Sergeant of the 36th accepting the surrender of General Dietrich on behalf of General Patton .

Please correct me if I am wrong (a request I make to all thread readers. I'm interested in the truth. Whether I provide it or someone else corrects me is immaterial) , but if I am right Patton had absolutely nothing to do with this. Thus, on what do you base your assertion he surrendered to Patton?

Secondly, you seem to be suggesting Dietrich represented his Panzer Armee when he surrendered. However, since they surrendered separately, in another area, of their own volition, not because Dietrich was directing them to, how do you support this statement?

Regards,
IronDuke
(Other thread users, I'd appreciate any help nailing down the OOB for 36th at this point in the war, in case I'm wrong).

< Message edited by IronDuke -- 8/24/2004 9:16:12 PM >

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