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RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ??

 
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RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 2:19:21 AM   
Golf33

 

Posts: 1962
Joined: 3/29/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

Actually, Ebay is more like an AGENT then an actual seller
their more of the status of Auction houses also of the status of classifieds in Papers and More of the status of those free "little papers and such" Flyers printed with things for sale etc...

You would be making every Newspaper, Ad Flyer printer, Auction House, etc Crimnals simply cause their all the "in between" for the sale..

Oh right throw in the Real Estate Agents that help make a sale, taking a commission but who are neither sellers nor buyers..

Frankly, Ebay is the electronic version of like those "auto mart" and other Printed Flyer publishers who list Ad's for a fee and print out a weekly or monthly flyer.

For Ebay to be the Seller , Ebay would need have physical ownership of all they sold and truly own whats sold,they DON'T so your all wrong here.

And Software is only part of whats sold on Ebay..


Hang on. Newspapers don't print advertisements for crack houses or Nigerian email scams. I also seem to recall that when I was a landlord, I was indeed responsible to ensure that my premises weren't used for any illegal activity. If you rent a house to someone and they use it for a meth lab, and you know about it, then you are surely partly responsible? This seems to me to be analagous to eBay hosting an advertisement for items they know to be pirated.

JMO as a private citizen of course.

Regards
33

_____________________________

Steve Golf33 Long

(in reply to Cmdrcain)
Post #: 31
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 2:25:00 AM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Hang on. Newspapers don't print advertisements for crack houses or Nigerian email scams. I also seem to recall that when I was a landlord, I was indeed responsible to ensure that my premises weren't used for any illegal activity. If you rent a house to someone and they use it for a meth lab, and you know about it, then you are surely partly responsible? This seems to me to be analagous to eBay hosting an advertisement for items they know to be pirated.

JMO as a private citizen of course.

Regards
33

Copyright infringement is not a criminal offence, thus Ebay are not allowing sales analagaous to crack house adverts. Newspapers do allow illegal cable box adverts, and fake medicine adverts, should ebay be held to a higher standard?

I find it strange that ebay has done nothing in response to requests from Matrix, I have seen bootleg concerts and pirated TV shows removed from auction after ebay are informed of the matter.

Now please get back to finishing CoTA, we're dying out here!

< Message edited by dinsdale -- 8/25/2004 12:25:51 AM >

(in reply to Golf33)
Post #: 32
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 8:21:42 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think that vendors would be happy with that though, especially if the terms "merchantability" and "fitness for purpose" were included.


Heh, I agree with you again Dinsdale, lol. When software developers/publishers want to provide "perfect" merchantability and fitness for purpose without fault software, I don't care how they copy protect then. But, I want that "refund/return" policy or no way in heck will I ever support such.

Someone asked about cracking. Anything media/digital can be cracked or hacked, there's just no way around it. Once inside the operating program a professional will discover the information only provided by the service and merely copy it, and apply it to the program, burn it to a fresh cd and have a complete working program without needing the online service to acitvate the program again. You can't "hide" anything from a professional hacker/cracker. You can put it 10 miles deep inside the program (an there are only so many lines of code) that they will eventually find it and crack it.

The only real protection will be like the mmorpgs are doing it. Where the client has "no access" to the data to play the game, it's all server side and then would need high security measures like Everquest and the rest. But, as I said before, even those over time were cracked, but, not as far as the program to sell, but, code within the program was altered to create more items or more platinum. When you don't have media to copy, or download, it's pretty hard to steal the software. They can still crack the code, but, they can't steal the software and sell it for $4.95 on the internet. Have you ever seen any of the new MMORPG's for sale on the internet for $4.95? Nope. Now, what they would do, would be goto software store and rip the CD KEYS from the retail boxes (back when EBgames and Software Etc gave refunds/returns this was common practice, now EBgames and Software etc have a no refund/no return policy on online CD key games), this saved them the $50 for basically what we all paid for the CD KEY, and then some even tried cd duplicating methods, but, those were thwarted as well.

That's where I believe the software industry will eventually go. All games must be played online (except for the few retail sales of large games I'm sure they will still market and then the lil guys that can't afford that type of service "Matrix, HPS, Shrapel" hehe, will still have to deal with the same ole form of piracy until they too can afford to go the "play it online game" route.

I had read at one of the computer developers conventions just very recently, if not this year then last year that eventually computer gaming would "cost fo play online", no more free multiplayer servers, it's coming and I don't think it's far away. ;)

(in reply to dinsdale)
Post #: 33
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 11:43:19 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?



The Difference is in that until now, there were no easy bought and easy used DVD BURNERS.

Once the Tech is affordable and available and one has the ability to make an Archival Backup copy the *COPYWRITE LAW* gives the right to do so.

It is the L A W.



A CDrom burner is pretty cheap, before that there were zip drives, before blouware windows 9x there was DOS and Tap Backups and Floppy Backups, so if the ability is there for a person there should be NOTHING on the software that would prevent copying to make a LEGAL backup/archival copy.

It is in the LAW that one has the right, a copywrite holder cannot prevent that without risking their copywrite being ruled void.

The Copywrite law covers both OWNERS and those that may make use!

When Photocopy machines came out it was ruled legal, the archival copy part was in there allowing make copys of what one owned for own use, personal use only.

It would be Illegal to copy and sell copys.

It is not illegal to Copy for backup/archival/safeguard original.

_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

Battlestar Pegasus

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 34
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 11:56:02 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlapBone

This thread has a Twilight Zone quality to it. We have people who like to download games arguing that we need more copy protection (thus taking the games to a more retail type of distribution), and on the flip side we have people who would like to see more of Matrix' games in retail stores arguing that we need less copy protection.

Back on topic: I can see where Matrix has a potential piracy problem because of the method they chose to distribute their games. With an IP protection like Viatech's Elicense though, instead of having the verification of the key done within the software itself all verification and activation is done from a master server (or over the phone for the people who have dialup). The digital download aspect of Matrix' distribution is already happening so why not find a method that protects it that way. I have talked with people (developers) who are using this method and the going rate is about $5 a copy.

There is also a limit to the amount of licenses that can be active at any one time. The normal limit for the games I've bought, is 2. If I change laptops or have some catastrophic failure, recovering these licenses is pretty painless. There is a handy little software (dll) applet installed into the control panel of the computer that lets you "release" a license in order to move the license to another computer. I generally install all games of these genres (sports sims and hex wargames) on 2 different computers (my home desktop and my laptop). For betas a company can release a 20 or a 50 license key and then revoke it when the beta is over.



The problem with a server way is hat what if company goes broke or whatever and is gone, then suppot is, one pays for a license to use but no longer can activite a new install later on..

I'd have no problem if since the companys going and gone if it released a key to unlock all sold, unless the assets are sold and another takes over the support.

Otherwise then the license would need be term limited in agreement somehow..

I still use old DOS programs and games, good ones paid for with good money and I'd hate to think "damn, but SSI went out of biz, I cant re-install Pacwar on the new pc and activite it..." would be a problem for me now if such were done in 80-90's.


Btw I know the CP you talk of, where you release a license to move it, the Baseball sim I use is testing something like that on the Basketball game and our next years baseball game may use it, a problem I have through is if a HD crashs, you cannot possiable access the HD to remove the license... so your stuck, if companys still in biz likely support will help, but if its gone out of biz your stuck with worthless prg/game and money wasted..

Unless such a CP used the company releases a "remove code/key" or such so past customers still can use the product... If the company goes out of biz or just drops the games etc..

Theres the problem with "activation" and other such schemes, they depend on the company being in business so customers can get needed support.

_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

Battlestar Pegasus

(in reply to SlapBone)
Post #: 35
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 12:53:42 PM   
Kizardvexius

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Here some input from a long time lurker.

I am a longtime customer from matrix, from all 4 SPWAW mega campaigns to starship unlimited and starshatter, I like their stuff.
But I really love the fact that I do not get punished by a copy protection for sins made by someone else.
I also bought a TotalGaming.net account and I must say I am very happy with this system.

Please read what the creator of Galactic Civilization had to say about piracy.
http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=21895

So far, I fully agree with that guy.
Here are a few important quotes from that successful developper :
"In my experience of writing games, it's not pirates ripping us off of our hard earned money, it's been publishers."
"So I hope you can excuse me if I don't lose sleep at night that some 15 year old might have downloaded my game while some executive at a company (or former company) is sailing on their boat paid for by my hard work. "
"I know it sold over 100,000 copies out there. But people didn't pirate it much. Why? Because we didn't force them to pirate it."
"If the competing technology (consoles) can't be updated with new stuff after release, then you should exploit that advantage. And that means add new features, not use the Internet to supply updates that finish the game! "
"Once you make someone have to hunt down a CD crack, you've set them on the path of pirating the whole game and future games."

I have to say I am not looking forward being punished by some new game protection scheme. Especially when I have 2 kids messing around my computer, who can and did "walk" on a game CD. In one case (Baldur's gate2) I lost the CD, which would not have happened if it was not mandatory to play with CD in the drive. I know, it should be my problem, and it should not concern the publisher.

But this point is now more and more involved in my buying decision, so it's now more than my problem, it is also becoming the publisher's problem.

(in reply to Cmdrcain)
Post #: 36
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 3:56:30 PM   
Hexed Gamer


Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Throwning in the towel.

I have seen multiple sides of this argument, and reluctantly I have no real all encompassing solution but one.

If we don't master this issue of how to make a game and ensure the hard work to make said game is not made a farce by someone along the way, be it producer, middleman pirate or casg strapped consumer, then the logical assumption will be that wargames should go back to being board games.

Anyone here ever actually see a pirated board game?

Much as computer wargames might offer this option or that option, one fact remains, each and every one of my board games has not suffered one iota of playability limitation since the day I bought them.
In fact, in recent years, I have been enabled to play my board games online.
And in spite of the fact you can do some clever things to thwart the real need to possess the physical board game for just that methodology, it is not nearly the problem magnitude besting software.

Soooooo glad I have neeeeeeeever been dumb enough to sell off ANY of my board games.

(in reply to Kizardvexius)
Post #: 37
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 7:25:31 PM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Why do people download cracked games? I think alot of the downloads happen just because its available. These people does not represent lost customers as they probably would not have bought the game anyways. Then you have those who download just to see if its something for them. If they like it, the chances are they buy it. Finally, I believe many crack games to avoid the CD protection stuff. I think it is very irritating both to have to have the CD in my drive just to play, and not being able to create a backup copy. The best protection I can think of would be to make solid games (people want to have the real thing if they really like it), with great box and manuals and charts etc (that cannot be downloaded), and no CD protection. BY fighting the customers, calling them thiefs, making the everyday use of the programs more and more difficult, you just end up with frutrated customers. And there will always be those who just crack the game.


JT

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 38
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 9:11:33 PM   
SlapBone


Posts: 269
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer



Anyone here ever actually see a pirated board game?




Cracked board games are pretty much worthless

_____________________________


(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 39
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/27/2004 7:55:19 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Copy protection to me is nothing more than "keeping the honest people honest syndrom" and we are the ones who have to suffer all this copy protection bs because developers publishers think it will also thwart piracy! lol I've been playing computer games since 1982 and software piracy has done nothing, but, grow, CP is a waste of time, they should spend those resources finding out the IP addresses of those issuing pirated material and calling the FBI, CIA, Interpol and going after these culprits, not punishing their money paying customer base, whom since I am one of them get more and more frustrated with these newer copy protection schemes that just cause ME more headaches and pirates just laugh at them. I'm about tired of my honesty being challenged myself, my feetsies are on the "line", push me just one more time, thas all it will take, like they always say "if you can't beat them, join them" is that what the software industry wants to do? Push us all to the other side? ;)

I want a simple CP scheme and the ability to backup a copy of the game should something happen to my origional version. Let's go back to looking up a word in the manual, lol, wasn't that fun? hahaha I think I hated that one the most, then SSI came out with one for I think it was Pool of Radiance where it had this WHEEL and you had to line up the wheel with the icons on it and then type in the words that showed up in the windows of the wheel, lol, yet, another funny copy protection scheme that failed. They've all failed, looks like they would just give up and just accept what they get is all they would get anyway instead of "theorizing" that if we make a better CP program we'll get more sales, how many years now has the software industry been thinking/theorizing this way? And has it worked? lol, no it's only got worse.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 8/27/2004 1:36:06 AM >

(in reply to SlapBone)
Post #: 40
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/28/2004 4:49:59 PM   
Hartley


Posts: 255
Joined: 6/2/2003
Status: offline 		If the RIAA and MPAA can go after P2P piracy, why are Micorosoft and Adobe sitting on their asses ?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 41
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/28/2004 5:27:08 PM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley

If the RIAA and MPAA can go after P2P piracy, why are Micorosoft and Adobe sitting on their asses ?

Makes no sense whatsoever.


Perhaps because in the month following the highly publicised RIAA actions P2P usage increased by 10%?

(in reply to Hartley)
Post #: 42
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/29/2004 11:04:40 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Anyone here ever actually see a pirated board game?




No not seen, but the baseball game I like used be a card only game (it started selling in 1962) and I heard of instances where a person would pay for an old set of past season (the company back then only pprinted each new seasons cards and didn't re-print past seasons ) and I heard storys of people burned by getting PHOTOCOPIED sheets of the Past Seasons... you could call that pirating a board game in a way, since it was cards, dice and a baseball field layout on cardboard with runner pieces.. (strat-o-matic)

Sooo I wouldn't be surprised if some board games were "copied"




_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

Battlestar Pegasus

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 43
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/29/2004 11:26:47 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I want a simple CP scheme and the ability to backup a copy of the game should something happen to my origional version. Let's go back to looking up a word in the manual, lol, wasn't that fun? hahaha I think I hated that one the most, then SSI came out with one for I think it was Pool of Radiance where it had this WHEEL and you had to line up the wheel with the icons on it and then type in the words that showed up in the windows of the wheel, lol, yet, another funny copy protection scheme that failed. They've all failed, looks like they would just give up and just accept what they get is all they would get anyway instead of "theorizing" that if we make a better CP program we'll get more sales, how many years now has the software industry been thinking/theorizing this way? And has it worked? lol, no it's only got worse.


Well on first point I agree insofar as that any CP scheme should not
prevent a LEGAL archival backup being made, as I've said the copywrite law developers and publishers wave has that right in that same law, for the users protection.

As to the Wheels , etc those weren't too problemic a type of CP,
at least they were nonintrusive, I recall how Starflight I had a cod wheel.. It was not a problem... but Starflight II used a Map and a device and "type in number of say red stars in the little window" which was more annoting, the map being big..

But neither scheme prevented making backup copys of the install floppys...so I could do that and put away the originals in a safe place.

If a "feel good" CP scheme is needed fine but it should be of a type that doesn't prevent archival backups, if it does he softwares "copywrite" should be legally void, if the Copywrite holder itself violates the law they should lose the copywrite.. the only exception I could make is free replacements, totally free, if license is open ended in how long it lasts.

Lets face it, developers of games etc have a right to be compensated yes, no arguement from me there, but users of the product should not need to pay to replace a damaged copy of the Media, they already paid for the license right, the seller is /should be obligated to ensure as long as license is in force the license purchaser has working media.

That is the problem, how many have plenty of old software thats been essentially "abandoned"

Perhaps software needs a different copywrite law, with a Much Shorter length of protection, after all a book can be protected a very long time, and same law pretty much copywrites software for 50+ years.

I think anytime a Software publisher abandons support hey should if use a Cp scheme that prevents copying to issue as matter of the copywrite law an removal program or all purpose key so abandoning support wouldn't prevent purchasers from still using their paid for licensed software.

1:If CP prevemts copyng
Then
2: Publisher etc required then to freely replace returned damaged Media
And
3: If uses an activition scheme, then if abandons support an removal prg or all-purpose key put out.

Would be fair, Publishers have their protection from piracy, legal users get the proper support etc they should, and bad media replaced free of charge.

If a publisher doesn't wish to have to replace media then they need use a CP scheme that doesn't prevent copying of the install media.. period.

And see #3 on if its an activition scheme, if so then if abandon that support, they issue a removal tool..


Software publishers have to be fair to legal users otherwise
if cannot copy install media thats damaged and/or get freely replaced and its a prg well liked/used the company drives the legal user to get a cracked/pirated version and THAT could lead to abandoning any legal buying and just from that point getting pirated free stuff for everything!




_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

Battlestar Pegasus

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 44
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/29/2004 11:31:20 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley

If the RIAA and MPAA can go after P2P piracy, why are Micorosoft and Adobe sitting on their asses ?

Makes no sense whatsoever.



Perhaps because in the month following the highly publicised RIAA actions P2P usage increased by 10%?


Or perhaps in case of Microsoft they might be afraid that
antitrust/monopoly issues will be back in the spotlight
if they come down as big heavys..



_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

Battlestar Pegasus

(in reply to dinsdale)
Post #: 45
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/9/2004 5:17:14 PM   
Kizardvexius

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Why do people download cracked games? I think alot of the downloads happen just because its available.
JT


Never !
It is not because you can steal something that you do it.

(in reply to Error in 0)
Post #: 46
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/9/2004 5:38:19 PM   
Hexed Gamer


Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Lets see, 10 bucks in your pocket and 10,000 dollars of things you want.

People steal simply because they want, and have no means to buy.

If I had 1000 bucks coming into my life each day, yeah sure, the odds of me pirating software would be like you know even less than zero.

But we are able to go online, and only a total incompetent boob CAN'T find illegal options online.

So, the basic fact of life, is if they can steal it they will. Why, because it's the way we humans think.

If it's worth something, you either protect it, or make provisions for dealing with it.

Because that's the bottom line, if it's worth something, someone is going to want it, and if they can't buy it, they WILL steal it. Especially if there is no real impediment to doing so.

Software is stolen so much, simply because stealing software is as easy as it is.

Right now, I can't lift a case of beer out of the beer store without having to have ever left home.
Not surprising then, we are not hearing about the ever present theft of beer right under their noses.

Right now I can go online and steal damn near any software out there. I don't have to go outside my home nor even get dressed eh.
I merely need the desire to do it.

And there appears to be not thing one the industry can do to stop people realising that very harsh reality.

It is just plain dumb to think the nobility of man will ever amount to squat in protecting your property.

We need to do something, something that actually DOES something.
Otherwise, it's like listening to a dolt crying about how his car was stolen because he left the motor running and the door's unlocked.

Until we employ some of our oh so clever tech to defeating our tech's security vulnerabilities, theft is a reality you can just get used to.

(in reply to Kizardvexius)
Post #: 47
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/10/2004 4:38:26 PM   
Home40

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/27/2001
Status: offline 		"Otherwise, it's like listening to a dolt crying about how his car was stolen because he left the motor running and the door's unlocked. "

Not quite - it's more like someone making a copy of the said vehicle. The driver ain't necessarily worse off. The issue with software piracy is more about the loss of potential sales than anyone being directly deprived of hard earned property.

Developers put more or less effort into their goods and deserve a return.

However, to say the bread is being stolen from the software industry's mouth is not clear until the true potential of the market is known - which it isn't.

Returning to the car analogy: If the guy who copied the car had no way of affording a vehicle like that should the manufacturer be too bothered? Having acquired a taste for driving there's always the chance the facsimiliser will want to buy the real thing one day.

h40

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 48
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/10/2004 4:41:17 PM   
Home40

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Until we employ some of our oh so clever tech to defeating our tech's security vulnerabilities, theft is a reality you can just get used to.


And when total security exists sales will rocket!!!

h40

(in reply to Home40)
Post #: 49
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/10/2004 5:05:44 PM   
Hexed Gamer


Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Why is theft something so hard to fess up to being what it is.

NO damnit, making a copy of something you could never have made a purchase of is not, NOT denying the originator of said article a sale.

You stole his damn product. You stole his right to be the only way in hell you were going to get his damn product.

YOU STOLE FROM HIM.

How about this, say I kidnap your daughter. After all I could never really have her otherwise right? Does my saying something moronic like, well I could never legally have her anyways, so where's your loss.
Do you not SEE how completely bereft of simple common sense your position is?

If you can't afford it, the proper response is TOUGH LUCK.

Stealing is stealing, will continue to be stealing till hell freezes over or the person decides they want to give it away.

It's no wonder the world is like it is today, its crawling with people that are NOT indicative of us being the superor intellect on this planet.

I just wish I could clone someone and tell the donor sorry I can't afford to actually buy slaves. Hey, it's not like I was ever going to pay you eh, so like I never really stole from you did I?

The ONLY reason I have limited sympathy for the industry, is because it TOO is suitable stupid in how it protects itself.

Fools and their money are soon parted.

(in reply to Home40)
Post #: 50
RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 9/10/2004 6:41:45 PM   
Kevinugly

 

Posts: 438
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Colchester, UK
Status: offline 		There are various methods that the industry could protect itself. StarForce is not a particularly good one since it can interfere with your system in ways that have nothing to do with the game it was 'packaged' with. I've also noticed that several Ubisoft games have proved to be incompatible with certain hardware (hardware that I own) and so my money will not be spent on games published by that company.

The whole piracy/copywrite/'abandonware' stack of issues is not one that I care to delve into but I've seen the PC games industry 'shoot itself in the foot' too many times for me to have much sympathy for it as a whole when it starts bleating about lost sales.

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Post #: 51
Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 6:41:54 PM   
Home40

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Why is theft something so hard to fess up to being what it is.


Because you are drawing comparisons between the copying of computer games that might otherwise not be bought or played with taking and driving away some poor fellow's hard earned car.

'No problem calling a spade a spade - someone is copying games they would never buy and is therefore possibly not depriving anyone of anything.

I always thought the law works best when it takes account of the degree of harm being done.

[QUOTE]How about this, say I kidnap your daughter. After all I could never really have her otherwise right? Does my saying something moronic like, well I could never legally have her anyways, so where's your loss. [/QUOTE]

Again, you are using a hugely exaggerated level of harm, totally out of proportion with the misdeed actually under discussion. Someone has stolen my daughter, btw, and yet it's all nice and legal like - so much for the law and right and wrong.

quote:

Stealing is stealing
- Oh, gotcha.

quote:

TOUGH LUCK
- Life's cruel, right? Humbug!

[QUOTE]The ONLY reason I have limited sympathy for the industry, is because it TOO is suitable stupid in how it protects itself. [/QUOTE] Vigilante goons are the way to go, I think or at least invasive security measures, afterall pirates is pirates.

[QUOTE]It's no wonder the world is like it is today, its crawling with people that are NOT indicative of us being the superor intellect on this planet. [/QUOTE] - I really doubt folks get any more honest the brighter they get - but there is such a thing as enlightened self-interest.

h40

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Post #: 52
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 6:48:54 PM   
Kevinugly

 

Posts: 438
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Colchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

Because you are drawing comparisons between the copying of computer games that might otherwise not be bought or played with taking and driving away some poor fellow's hard earned car.


That's not a particularly good comparison. If I choose to build my own car, copying another car in the process, it's still something that I paid for and toiled at to achieve. If I download a pirate copy of a game, I'm choosing not to reward someone else's investment of both time and money. Effectively, that is theft

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Post #: 53
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 7:08:06 PM   
Home40

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

If I download a pirate copy of a game, I'm choosing not to reward someone else's investment of both time and money. Effectively, that is theft


Absolutely right, both as a legal definition (I assume) and morally wrong on the grounds that someone is being deprived of their just rewards. I am sincerely doubtful though, that all downloads or copies would otherwise translate into legit sales.

h40

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Post #: 54
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 8:04:53 PM   
Hexed Gamer


Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Ok to beat this odd conversation into the dust.

You say you would not otherwse buy it. Thus you were never a potential customer. Well yes, that the point, you were also never allowed it either. Copied or otherwise.

Why do you object to the owner telling you you can't have access to his game?

It was never yours at any time. You have no right to it. It matters not if you don't give a god damned if the guy was ever going to have made the sale.

The point is you never had the right to it at all.

Saying oh it is priced to high is not remotely relevant. Where does that absolve you of the right to possess it?

Software is easy to copy, that is the beginning and the endding of the issue really.

Kevin mentioned the car built from scratch. Short of making materials to make parts appear out of thin air, he has stil had to put cash in someone's pocket. Thus the car is paid for.
If he bought all the parts of a porsche and hand built it himself, it would probably cost him a good deal more. But there is nothing stopping a car fan from having the laughs is there.

It all comes down to, if the industry won't protect itself, then I don't care to her it cry.

At night I can either lock my door or not.
I can either wear a seatbelt or not.
If I suffer from a bad choice, who's fault is it?

Sure you can arrest a thief. But in the end, we all need to at least acknowledge we can do "something" to protect our private property.
To not do so, is folly.

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Post #: 55
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 8:35:14 PM   
Kevinugly

 

Posts: 438
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Colchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Home40

quote:

If I download a pirate copy of a game, I'm choosing not to reward someone else's investment of both time and money. Effectively, that is theft


Absolutely right, both as a legal definition (I assume) and morally wrong on the grounds that someone is being deprived of their just rewards. I am sincerely doubtful though, that all downloads or copies would otherwise translate into legit sales.

h40



I would agree totally. I have all sorts of pirated stuff on my systems, most of which I would never buy. Those that I like and use/play I then go out and purchase. There is an argument that the availability of pirated software actually benefits the computer industry (both hardware and software) as a whole. The problem imho comes not from downloading software for free (which leaves you with the cash to go and make another purchase) but from those who sell pirated copies since that is taking money out of the business. As far as I'm aware, legally there is no difference (correct me if there is) but morally ....... slightly grey area.

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Post #: 56
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 9:06:29 PM   
Hexed Gamer


Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Selling pirated software is worse than criminal if you ask me.

It's free (pirated) in the first place so buying it seems kinda dumb I suppose.

But usurping a sale is even worse than the guy getting it for free who otherwise didn't care squat to ever pay for it.

In the one case, the guy never intended to buy.
In the other, someone has given out cash, but to a cretin, not the guy that did all the work.

Might not seem relevant to the victim. but a cretin thief is worse than a meagre thief I think.

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Post #: 57
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 9:39:24 PM   
Kevinugly

 

Posts: 438
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Colchester, UK
Status: offline 		Apart from the 'taking money ouy of the business' issue, these vendors who sell pirated copies of games, software, CDs, DVDs etc. also give the impression that the legally sold items should be just as cheap. Given that most people are unaware of the actual costs of developing, publishing, packaging and marketing a product they buy a pirate copy of 'Doom 3' from some market trader for $10 and wonder why the genuine copy is $50 (or whatever). In the meantime the marketeer is probably making more than any of those involved in the genuine article. One despairs sometimes

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Post #: 58
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 10:34:51 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Someone needs to hit that Taiwan group that keeps selling newly released games for under $20, it's just the CD, no box, no manual, they say the manual is in Taiwan anyways. But, the code is USA. They got big advertisements up at ebay now, must be making a fortune to put those kinds of pictures/ads up. Of course they have the latest and greatest listed, I guess some people are buying them, but, I perfer used games from USA residents, since they usually come with a box and a manual and still under $20 if I just wait long enough. Heck sometimes I wait long enough I don't even want the bloomin game anymore. It's that NEW release hype that gets most people, kinda like smoking, if you stop the addiction, then it can't getcha. ;) I have beaten the "omg a new game I gotta have it now" addiction. ;)

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Post #: 59
RE: Keel hauled - 9/10/2004 11:02:50 PM   
Kevinugly

 

Posts: 438
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Colchester, UK
Status: offline 		Well a good few people have to but the game new or the unfortunate publisher/developer will go out of business!! That said, I often wait a few weeks/months until the game has come down in price or it becomes available s/hand. That Taiwanese group does sound decidedly dodgy though - but if I want to acquire a game without a manual or a box I'll download it for free, I'm not going to pay money for that kind of thing! Some people live in a whole different World.... or at least I wish they did

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