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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Frozen production

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Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:02:51 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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I've read the manual and still a bit confuse. Getting into March 1942, and it seems as though Japanese production is totally frozen at end-of-Jan level. New factories are not coming online at all even though there are surpluses of oil and resources. This is especially irksome in that the remaining G4M1 factories seem to refuse to come on line at all, as well as the A6M2 factories. Any ideas what the problem may be?

Post #: 1

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:07:56 PM

Mr.Frag

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Frozen is in not repairing?

Take too much supply out of Japan to feed your invasions?

More details ...

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

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RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:13:38 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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Yes, "repair". I have an a/c at Gumma for instance showing (24) x 4 been on four for over five weeks, not adding a single factory.

And that's probably it. The Auto-supply system is draining the home islands dry. No base, save Tokyo, has more than about 12,000, many < 7000. Gumma is especially dry. It has been stuck on the same level for five weeks.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/30/2004 5:15:32 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 3

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:18:18 PM

Mr.Frag

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Typical starting out problem

The homelands have a finite ability to produce supplies. Taking it out via ships quicker then you can produce it leads to things being shut down.

This is generally caused by over ambitious plans (trying to win the war in the first month)

Watch yourself in China too, it's got an even lower rate of recovery. You can *really* screw yourself up here making your troops a pushover for the Chinese.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 4

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:24:17 PM

mogami

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Hi, Repair will not occur in a base with less then 10k supply present.

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Post #: 5

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:39:17 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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Well in my game, it means it's not going to occur at all! Tokyo has about 21k, EVERY OTHER home island base has < 10K.

(in reply to mogami)

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RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:42:12 PM

pompack

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been there, done that, ran convoys to carry supply INTO the Homeland. Very embarressing

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Post #: 7

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 7:43:14 PM

mogami

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Hi, Stop sending it out. Use Saigon and Singapore for supply in SRA.
I usally do not begin altering production before I have convoy headed back to Japan with oil/resource. I see supply levels begin to rise back Home in late Mar 42.

Japan must limit her operations to those she can supply. Many of the plans submitted to this forum will encounter supply problems. Japan produces roughly 25k supply per day. Operations (and production expansion) have to consume fewer then 25k supply per day or Japan will run out of supply.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/30/2004 12:46:44 PM >

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RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 10:07:43 PM

Xargun

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Also a good trick to move supply where you want it in Japan is to move HQs and units into the base where you want supply. The autosupply will then move supplies and such into that base to accomodate the new units - and if its a ground HQ, it will attempt to stock up 25,000 or so supplies - enough to repair anything you have there...

Xargun

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 9

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 10:29:30 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Stop sending it out. Use Saigon and Singapore for supply in SRA.
I usally do not begin altering production before I have convoy headed back to Japan with oil/resource. I see supply levels begin to rise back Home in late Mar 42.

Japan must limit her operations to those she can supply. Many of the plans submitted to this forum will encounter supply problems. Japan produces roughly 25k supply per day. Operations (and production expansion) have to consume fewer then 25k supply per day or Japan will run out of supply.

Well, I've learned that the hard way. I pushed hard to complete most of my conquests early. It is 10 Mar 1942 and the only sizeable base left in the SRA is Batavia. I have all the Solomons, and New Guinea is all mine, save the three bases on the east (Buna, Gili-Gili, and the big one, Port Morseby). Every time I capture an SRA base I put it on auto-convoy. The map is a mess of small supply TF's going virtually everywhere.

However I am noticing that most of the auto-convoys are coming home now and not much new is forming, meaning my new holdings are now supplied for quite a long time. We'll see if the home islands start to recoup some now, since very little supply is now leaving.

I think it is kind of odd design, though, that production requires the same generic "supply" that it produces? I always thought production required NO supply at all, just "oil" and "resources" and HI produced material for the other factories along with "supply" and "fuel" but did not consume that supply and fuel itself? I still find this whole production thing, odd, confusing, and quite unintuitive.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 10

Japanese supply consumption - 8/30/2004 10:40:26 PM

mogami

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Hi, It is a major pain in the butt to do but it will pay back the Japanese player 10 fold.
Figure out how much supply you are consuming per turn. Learn the surplus or deficit. Now if you have a surplus you can conduct more operations or raise the intensity of current actions. If you have a deficit you must stop operations or lower intensity.

You are producing 25k supply per turn if all your heavy industry is working.

How can you plan to begin a new operation involving major ship commitments and large air numbers if at the present and in foreseeable future you are running at minus supply?

Every airgroup consumes a set amount of supply for each type of mission. If you are planning on using a size 6 airfield with 300 aircraft for 2 weeks you know in advance what the supply use will be. Ships use supply and fuel at known levels. Ground units as well. You should never be suddenly aware of a supply shortage in the process of conducting any operation since this could have been worked out in advance.

Often it is better to employ a smaller force that is supplied then to strand forces in exposed positions due to lack of supply.

It all gets back to planning. WITP is an Operational Level game. That means planning. The combat results will most often favor the side that plans deeper then the enemy. Work your mind and you will save work for your fingers.

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Post #: 11

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 10:41:27 PM

Burkowski

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Mr. Frag, Mogami, Xargun:

Thanks for more down-to-earth, detailed advice.... yes, I am (as IJ)trying to win the war in December and starting to see the same supply problems develop as described by Zoomie. God's teeth, it's SOOOO tempting to try every play in the playbook to try and squash the Allies while the advantage is clear and to cut off their retreat so, at least, I'll die at the hands of fresh troops in 1943 rather than by Allied refugees from 1941!

Mogami, if you've given the 25K per day guideline before, I've missed it despite my best efforts to keep up with the forum AND to conquer Greater East Asia... but that guideline really helps... anything else you have lurking in your head that has the same quality of concise, precise, advice, let's have it ,please!

Thanks to all for the ongoing wisdom as we try to get a handle on this beast...

Burkowski

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 12

RE: Frozen production - 8/30/2004 10:54:58 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Burkowski

Mr. Frag, Mogami, Xargun:

Thanks for more down-to-earth, detailed advice.... yes, I am (as IJ)trying to win the war in December and starting to see the same supply problems develop as described by Zoomie. God's teeth, it's SOOOO tempting to try every play in the playbook to try and squash the Allies while the advantage is clear and to cut off their retreat so, at least, I'll die at the hands of fresh troops in 1943 rather than by Allied refugees from 1941!

Mogami, if you've given the 25K per day guideline before, I've missed it despite my best efforts to keep up with the forum AND to conquer Greater East Asia... but that guideline really helps... anything else you have lurking in your head that has the same quality of concise, precise, advice, let's have it ,please!

Thanks to all for the ongoing wisdom as we try to get a handle on this beast...

Burkowski

Well, I've pushed very, very hard on all fronts for a bit over three months now. And just about everything is on auto-convoy. Japan's home islands are devoid of supply, but the flip side is the SRA is conquered and the Burma road is about cut, the Solomons and NG about done. Basically my industry is at a stand-still, but the "Jap-fun" phase is already over. Not only that, much of my captured base list has had it's initial auto-supply and is now supplied for a long time. I'm transistioning into a fortify and wait mode, consolidating for the inevitable Allied counter attacks. But those are still a LOOOONNNNGGGG way off, as the Americal Div has just now arrived for the Allies and is still 10 days from even being deployed in Noumea. I'll be in Port Morseby with four 400 Assault divisions long before Southwest PAC gets it's first combat division in theater.

The supply situation should begin to rectify itself soon as I am down from 4-5 new autoconvoy TFs forming per day, to less than one a day now. And all the big resource and oil centers are moving their goods back to Japan now, en-masse.

I'm not sure which grand stragetgy plan is better at this point. I'm playing a PBEM game against a fellow who is a slow mover in the SRA (even though he's wreaking havoc in the South Pacific). Very deliberate.

We'll see which strategy is best, if either are. I posted this because I wanted to make sure there was not a bug or something and that my industrial production was due to my play choices, not a game problem.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/30/2004 8:56:49 PM >

(in reply to Burkowski)

Post #: 13

RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 12:09:53 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

I'm not sure which grand stragetgy plan is better at this point. I'm playing a PBEM game against a fellow who is a slow mover in the SRA (even though he's wreaking havoc in the South Pacific). Very deliberate.

We'll see which strategy is best, if either are. I posted this because I wanted to make sure there was not a bug or something and that my industrial production was due to my play choices, not a game problem.

At this point in time, I would tend to agree with you, there really is no way to tell without running many games to see which way is better. My *big* concern is an overdrive in china which strips you to the point that China is counter-attacking against 1/4 strength troops due to lack of supply. That just spells *wipeout*

It's probably safe for the Home Islands to a certain extent, but here is where it might bite you: You start with major engine shortages which pretty much govern aircraft production. Not having these expand due to shortages will put you on the back side of the production curve. I look at it from the standpoint that I have until 3/43 to win the war as the F4U's will start eating me from then on. The quicker I get engines for the newer planes showing up in '42, the more of them I will have to make myself annoying before the F4U's show up and spoil my fun.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 12:50:50 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I'm not sure which grand stragetgy plan is better at this point. I'm playing a PBEM game against a fellow who is a slow mover in the SRA (even though he's wreaking havoc in the South Pacific). Very deliberate.

We'll see which strategy is best, if either are. I posted this because I wanted to make sure there was not a bug or something and that my industrial production was due to my play choices, not a game problem.

At this point in time, I would tend to agree with you, there really is no way to tell without running many games to see which way is better. My *big* concern is an overdrive in china which strips you to the point that China is counter-attacking against 1/4 strength troops due to lack of supply. That just spells *wipeout*

It's probably safe for the Home Islands to a certain extent, but here is where it might bite you: You start with major engine shortages which pretty much govern aircraft production. Not having these expand due to shortages will put you on the back side of the production curve. I look at it from the standpoint that I have until 3/43 to win the war as the F4U's will start eating me from then on. The quicker I get engines for the newer planes showing up in '42, the more of them I will have to make myself annoying before the F4U's show up and spoil my fun.

I indeed overestended in China as the Allies, at first (this one is a hot-seat game). Forutnately I caught it in time, and pulled back to rebuild and just sit and wait for the supply situation to better itself. Chinese have attempted some counters but I'm holding and both sides are playing a "wait-and-see".

My latter half SRA campaign stunk. Very poorly planned. Lots of places I hit, I hit with inferior forces, Allies counter attacked in some and drove the units back into the jungles! I've slowly cleaned a lot of that up, but its a mess. The bases in Sumatra are particularly annoying. They are fairly heavy fortified, and then those units hit the jungle trails in the interior. I'm afraid if I abandon a base to just a base force, they'll sneek back in and retake it, even in their weakened state.

But basically, my Japanese offensive stage is essentially over. Batavia will fall in about three days, Mandalay by the end of the week, and Port Morseby should be done in less than 2 weeks. It is then honker down, dig in, reorganize to a defensive posture, try and sink a few wayward Allied ships......and just wait......

And this is an interesting phase, because even though historically the allies started their counter-offensive in the Solomons, they are actually MUCH stronger in the Central Pacific than the South Pacific. In Lemur #26, on 10 Mar 42 the ONLY combat division you can use in the South Pacific is the Americal Division. Add in an Ausi Brigade or two and that's about it! However, they have three powerful USA divisions sitting at Pearl doing nothing. The only reason they are not being used is fear of the KB roaming around to spoil any Allied playfullness at Kwajelin or Tarawa....

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 1:28:24 AM

Twotribes

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Where is the 2nd Marine Division? It is what made the invasion at Guadalcanal in August.

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 7:59:56 AM

Culiacan Mexico

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Where is the 2nd Marine Division? It is what made the invasion at Guadalcanal in August.

"The 1st Marine Division, "The Old Breed", was activated aboard the battleship Texas on February 1, 1941, consisting of the 1st, 5th, 7th and 11th Marine Regiments. The division first saw action at Guadalcanal in the invasion of 7 August 1942. Later in World War II, it invaded Peleliu and Okinawa."

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 8:51:03 AM

mogami

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Hi, The 1st , 5th and 7th are infantry the 11th is Arty. (I was in C/1/11 in 74. HQ/2/12 in 75 and HQ/10th Marines 76-77) 1st, 3rd, 2nd Marine Divisons

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 1:07:18 PM

Sneer

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There is enough supply

if you take care of it

turn auto convoy off
second - use forward bases -Formoza, Palau, Singapore , Truk
supply them with conwoy system - there is point in feeding Allies with VP and save supply during transport. change routes often
Concentrate your effort to limit suppy used due to combat.- Blitzkrieg is welcome but you must carefully calculate risk.
limit sorties - especially ground and airfield after initial first week
check carefully where are your CAP active - there are many places they can stay down for a while (Home Isl , Formoza after week 1 , China)
stop building bases - it takes enormous amounts of supply - you are aggressor and carry out blitzkrieg so what are you needed bigger airfields in China fo ? or in Home Islands ????
Hit enemy hard and fast and take Borneo+Palembang oil bases at opening -rest can wait in ABDA for a while- you should have plenty of oil in early Jan and cut off PI in first week
you should be able to carry out offensive against Southeast asia/china at full scale for a long time. Just try to capture Singapore at the earliest even at the cost of other places ( 18Dec is my best date till now)
industry (exept armament and vehicles ) can wait till phase first is finished

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RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 3:26:59 PM

Captain Cruft

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I have to say this bit me in the bum too during one of my earlier "testing" games. I wasn't using auto-convoy, just increased production far too fast.

Apart from the "slow down a bit" answer there is also another expedient measure that you can use - go hoover up all the supplies lying around on empty bases. There's actually quite a lot of it if you look ... Or, if you're feeling a bit gamey, steal some out of Kwantung, they won't need it till 1945.

(in reply to Sneer)

Post #: 20

RE: Frozen production - 8/31/2004 4:58:37 PM

Harald1050