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Vehicle Casualties

 
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Vehicle Casualties - 9/4/2004 9:16:49 AM   
baevans99

 

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How are vehicle casualties inflicted upon the enemy reported and recorded?

On a battlefield where the front lines shift back and forth, how do you ensure that you aren't counting the same destroyed vehicle over and over again? All commanders love to buff up their numbers, even follow up forces who face a limited counter attack could claim a particular vehicle was their kill when it was actually knocked out the day before they arrived in the area.

There is also the possibility that a knocked out vehicle disappears from the battle field. Repair crews can remove the vehicle to use another day.

I guess I have similar questions on how enemy human casualties are counted. Obviously if you capture the ground the enemy was on you can count the the enemy who is still there. How do you count the ones that were carried away or crawled away? If you don't capture the enemy ground (like in a failed attack) how do you judge the amount of damage inflicted upon the enemy?

Thanks for you help.
Post #: 1
RE: Vehicle Casualties - 9/4/2004 9:29:33 AM   
Muzrub


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Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
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I would imagine after a conflict like WW2 data could be processed from both sides and the end result could be figured.
I dont believe reliable casualty rates or attrition can truely be calculated from just observing what is left on the battlefield, who knows what the other side begin with or even if in terms of vehicles whether it was from a recent battle or from weeks before if the fighting continues back and forth.

This question is probably at the heart of the Patton thread, which is why I believe Ironduke probably was correct because the data was processed after the fact and knowing the true figures involved and not just determing figures what was left on the battlefield, who knows how mant times a tiger could have been counted by data collectors Or considered destroyed by attacking troopers who may not really know the end result of their actions..........maybe their enemy survived?

_____________________________

Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Iraq, and i have seen
Things are not what they seem.


Matrix Axis of Evil

(in reply to baevans99)
Post #: 2
RE: Vehicle Casualties - 9/4/2004 9:41:12 AM   
2ndACR


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Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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Part of it also depends on who holds the battlefield after the fight. In modern combat
(1991-present) very few vehicles that are hit will survive to crawl away. And if they do try to crawl away, they get shot again until they are a burning inferno.

After the Battle of 73 Easting, we had an accurate total of destroyed Iraqi vehicles about 3 hours after sunup. We had a total of our damaged and the only Bradley we lost in almost real time.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 3
RE: Vehicle Casualties - 9/4/2004 9:56:48 AM   
Muzrub


Posts: 1780
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
Status: offline
Sounds about right in terms of modern day combat.

For example in the East ( I dare say the West too) the Germans had greater a loss of vehicles due the fact they didnt control the battlefield after the action had taken place, this of course works for all armies, but of course one is going to advance while one will move backwards. Say Germany lost 10 PZ4's but lost the battlefield its ten in total, but with control they could have saved maybe 3 (if any) so the total lost would 7, but its not just vehicles lost its also spare parts from partialy destroyed vehicles could have been useful to the surviving vehicles or the saved ones.

_____________________________

Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Iraq, and i have seen
Things are not what they seem.


Matrix Axis of Evil

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 4
RE: Vehicle Casualties - 9/4/2004 6:04:40 PM   
Paul Vebber


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Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
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In a land battle where you "win the field" its a matter of counting hulks. When you are using airpower it is far more problematic. BDA (Bomb or Battle damage assessment) is a major issue for our present military with a lot of effort going into UAVs and "ordance "with eyeballs" so there is either a live feed for a considerable period after the target is struck to see if the enemy recovers it, or there is a transmission up to the point of impact that gives an exact impact point in the final frame that can be evaluated. A new family of "loitering munitions" such as LOCAS has been proposed to combine the two - a "Swarm" of LOCAS munitions forms a mini-CAS (CLose Air SUpport) 'stack' over an area and can be called in with GPS coordinates while others orbiting above give the top down feed. If the target is fouled by a blue or white target, the mission can be aborted right up to impact. If impact is made, the final frames of the impacting munition can be reviewed, together with the live feed from above (assuming you are working "over teh next hill" and don;t have good LOS view) and if necessary another munition can be designated to run in off the CAS stack.

In Kosovo, the reliance on "blind bombs" - though "precision guded" required follow up BDSA srties by recon configured aircraft, usually with a significant (up to several hours) delay., THis allowed the Serbs to recover vehcles, put turrets ack on hulks to look "live - or to construct dummy turrets or whole dummy vehicles resulting ion the same hulk being atacked 4 5 or more times. The Air Force, with a large BDA effort - counted hundreds of vehicels destroyed, when the real number after the war was over turned out to be dozens, not hundreds.

A good question, and a significant issue for military's looking to non-LOS air based and "over the next hill" anti-vehicle weapons and tactics.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 5
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