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PNG defense? - 9/27/2004 10:54:34 PM

tanker4145

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I'm wondering what other Allied players do as far as PNG in the early game? Do you reinforce Port Moresby? With what and how much? Any other bases? What do you Japanes Fan boys like to do in PNG early on? I'm guessing at first it's a sideshow, but I'd like to be able to defend forward, but don't want to endanger Australia and the more important bases like Nomeau and Suva. Appreciate any input.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/27/2004 11:06:31 PM

Drex

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I have reinforced PM and G-G but Buna,Wewak, Hollandia et.al. are too far away to get troops to. The Japanese will beat you there.

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Post #: 2

RE: PNG defense? - 9/27/2004 11:10:20 PM

Nikademus

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counterinvade it with Kiwi's and let them and the Kangeroo's duke it out. Then waltz in with a Japanese brigade and mop up.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/27/2004 11:10:42 PM

UncleBuck

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I re-enfoce PM and GG. If I can get enough troops there I send a Bde. Along teh trail toward Buna. This acts like a speed bump for the JP if they come over land. I also withdraw my troops after inital contact at Rabul to Gasmata. I also try to get some supply there, and if I can swing it an Eng. Group to Gasmata.

UB

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/27/2004 11:16:02 PM

PeteG662

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One of the two battalions that start the game in Darwin could be sent to PM. You can easily convert an Aussie Cav Bde or Tank Unit to SWPAC and get it over there in the first few turns as well. I try to get something to Lae since it has supply and a decent harbor to start as well as PM and build PM quickly. Attrition is the goal for me as an allied player.

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Post #: 5

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 3:04:37 AM

Buck Beach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I re-enfoce PM and GG. If I can get enough troops there I send a Bde. Along teh trail toward Buna. This acts like a speed bump for the JP if they come over land. I also withdraw my troops after inital contact at Rabul to Gasmata. I also try to get some supply there, and if I can swing it an Eng. Group to Gasmata.

UB

Just for fun and playing historical difficulty against the Jap AI (while awaiting 1.3) I transported the Rabaul troops and Eng Base unit out to GG to build and place a fighter squadron. I took most of the base units out of PI and scattered them in the SWPAC (and SoPAC) with a couple of the better ones to PM. I didn't forget Thursday Is. that I set up as an air search location (but later pulled them in favor of Darwin leaving only an AVD). I then got the 2 Aussies brigades out of Malaysia and set them up in PM. Then brought in 2AA, CD and EAB units to build and set up a defence for the eventual Jap onslaught. Its now late may and the Japanese are too busy esle where and in the meantime the P-40s out of PI rebuilt to maximum are rotating in and out of PM and the B-26s, A-20s and P-39s are giving the transports into Lae hell.

Damn hindsight is great. Am I not the greatest commander of all time? I will start a serious game after 1.3 trying to play things as the were on hardest level. I expect to get my butt kicked even by the stupid AI.

Buck

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 6

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 3:44:12 AM

tanker4145

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I appreciate the responses. So far I've been timid in reinforcing PM, partly because this is my first full campaign and its PBEM against an aggressive opponent I played in UV, where he usually kicked my butt around. I was worried I might get too much cut off, but now I'm debating sending a BDE and some additional support units to PM, and something to GG to secure southern PNG. Thanks for the tips fellas!

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 3:58:58 PM

Caranorn

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I have also on several occasions sent the 2nd AIF battalion (??? Force) from Rabaul to Gili Gili or Port Moresby during the first few turns of the game.

Other then agressive naval/air raids (cruisers and destroyers from the South Pacific plus Australian fighter bombers and torpedo/patrol aircraft) that's all I usually do in the first month or two for this area.

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: The Kiwi's definitelly don't belong there, I wonder whether the Japanese could assemble the necessary force to take the Fiji's if the Allies weaken that area for Port Moresby.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 6:41:39 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tanker4145

I appreciate the responses. So far I've been timid in reinforcing PM, partly because this is my first full campaign and its PBEM against an aggressive opponent I played in UV, where he usually kicked my butt around. I was worried I might get too much cut off, but now I'm debating sending a BDE and some additional support units to PM, and something to GG to secure southern PNG. Thanks for the tips fellas!

Just remember, a human Japanese player, once the PI and DEI are largely conquered could have 5 to 6 full divisions and a few Mixed Bdes to throw at you in Port Morseby by early May. Even if you use PP's to convert a large Ausie division to SWPAC, even with the first USA division (32nd?) you will find PM tough to defend, especially if you've already been on the bad end of a carrier battle with the KB..... Most games I've seen so far, a determined human Japanese player, if they want to, can take all of New Guinea regardless of what the Allied player does.

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Post #: 9

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 6:52:26 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

I have also on several occasions sent the 2nd AIF battalion (??? Force) from Rabaul to Gili Gili or Port Moresby during the first few turns of the game.

Other then agressive naval/air raids (cruisers and destroyers from the South Pacific plus Australian fighter bombers and torpedo/patrol aircraft) that's all I usually do in the first month or two for this area.

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: The Kiwi's definitelly don't belong there, I wonder whether the Japanese could assemble the necessary force to take the Fiji's if the Allies weaken that area for Port Moresby.

While I haven't seen it yet in any AAR's it seems to me, with human Japanese players that can clean out the entire DEI by late March, there is no way to really top the Japs from taking all of NG and then pushing south and taking Fiji and all the New Hebridees before the Allies can must enough strength. Especially if the Allies have had a bad result from a carrier battle with the KB. Absolutley so playing Lemurs mod.

In fact, my PBEM oppponent is busy taking the entire south pacific right now and there's not a damned thing I can do about it! Fiji and even Pago-Pago will fall soon and it is only early Jan in that one! I'm probably going to have to abandon Noumea all together and start my build up way down in Auckland! Just too many Japanese forces and no Allied forces available until roughly May.

Most human players playing Japan will take the PI by late Jan. That frees up at least five full divisions. They only need, at most, one, to take Java with and just use SNLF and Nav Gd units to mop up the rest of the DEI. Those five divisions can then ALL be moved south to Rabaul or Lae/Buna/GiliGili and eventually be set up to take Port Morseby with support from massive air at Rabaul and the KB. Not a damned thing the Allies can do about it. The only real issue holding Japan back is supply shortages. But early on, they have enough, if used right.

I guess the downside for the Jap player, is doing that much overreaching is going to consume everything they have and make the eventual counter conquest that much easier for the Allies. Problem is here, very few PBEM games have progressed that far so we can see results from this kind of over-aggressive Japanese play.

(in reply to Caranorn)

Post #: 10

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:17:28 PM

Nikademus

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If Japan wants to overreach, that just makes the inevitable Allied counter-offensive all the easier.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:21:13 PM

UncleBuck

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I am not sayign you will stop the Japanese, but you will bleed them and even if you are just speed bumps maybe you can high center teh JP for a while and force them to bring in the tow truck.

Any disruption you can give teh JP is worht it. Make them spend supplies to dislodge you. Buy time, but that is all that you can do.

UB

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Post #: 12

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:21:48 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

If Japan wants to overreach, that just makes the inevitable Allied counter-offensive all the easier.

Yea, we keep being told that. Not too many posted AAR's showing over-reaching Japanese players getting to that stage yet to see just how accurate that assessment is. I guess once the oil and resource stockpiles are depleted those PI five divisions now in NG are going to start to starve.....

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Post #: 13

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:23:48 PM

Nikademus

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no need for AAR's, its common sense. As Mogami as repeatedly pointed out, Japan has only so many divisional sized LCU's. The Pacific map is vast and Japan simply doesn't have the troopage to take everything and hold everything (effectively), even using Lemur's scenerio. All that changes is the time frame when the Allied machine starts rolling.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:31:05 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

no need for AAR's, its common sense. As Mogami as repeatedly pointed out, Japan has only so many divisional sized LCU's. The Pacific map is vast and Japan simply doesn't have the troopage to take everything and hold everything (effectively), even using Lemur's scenerio. All that changes is the time frame when the Allied machine starts rolling.

I one of my games, my Japanese opponent has sent 4 of the five divisions he used to conquer the PI south to Lae. One was sent to Java to take that and I assume will show up in Lae as well. I'm guessing he plans on using all five to hammer me in Port Morseby. And if/when he takes that, I'm guess three or four will be used to take Noumea. He will have one or two powerful full divisions in PM and one or two powerful divisions in Noumea with at least one reserve division in Lunga or Rabaul not to mention the South Seas Det and a couple of those Mixed Bde's laying around in reserve as well, probably at least on on Tarawa or Kawejelin. That's a pretty good defensive line there, especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:38:12 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I one of my games, my Japanese opponent has sent 4 of the five divisions he used to conquer the PI south to Lae. One was sent to Java to take that and I assume will show up in Lae as well. I'm guessing he plans on using all five to hammer me in Port Morseby. And if/when he takes that, I'm guess three or four will be used to take Noumea. He will have one or two powerful full divisions in PM and one or two powerful divisions in Noumea with at least one reserve division in Lunga or Rabaul not to mention the South Seas Det and a couple of those Mixed Bde's laying around in reserve as well, probably at least on on Tarawa or Kawejelin. That's a pretty good defensive line there, especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

Ok, that doesn't sound too bad. (a defense line a bit longer than the historical) If he's has reserve divisions he'd better not be basing them at Rabaul or Lunga due to the malarial effect (a reserve div needs to be at 100% readiness and preferable (if possible) have it's obj set to the target the player most think's will be invaded in order to have maximum impact)

On the bright side if he has most of his combat power in the Solomons and PNG. (with a couple more divisions in Noumea) and the remainder sitting at Tarawa and Kalj. then that at least means that Oz is safe, and Burma wont be heating up. Even with Noumea in Japanese hands, the supply line to Oz can still be supplied via New Zealand. Less efficient and longer but doable.

Guess the point i'm making is that this scenerio is a far cry from the complaints that Japan would be able to exploit the rules to conquor the world. (india, China, Oz, etc )

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 9/28/2004 5:43:35 PM >

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:42:48 PM

kaiser73

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I am new to PBEM games (only doin 3, and only 2 GC). But as Japan, you can prolly take all south pacific if you want once PI are taken.

However, unless Japan can win by autovictory (which could be the reason to follow that plan) when Allies can star they are not obliged to take all pacific back. And that's where i think (but obviously as other said, never seen in a PBEM) Japan gets weakness.

Once Allies gain air superiority on the theater, all Japanese divisions become targets and can't move (unless at high losses).

You can have 3 divisions at PM, but allies can simply close down the airport, and head for rabaul. and japan lose 3 divisions he could use in mariannes...
I don't know.

None knows really the difficulties as allies to attack Japan in south pacific in a PBEM in GC. A player as Japan as 1,5 years to prepare for defence. it means thousands of mines, fortifications 9 and troops. who knows, maybe Japan can hold.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 7:56:22 PM

Feinder

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I'm always surprised to hear how panicky some folks get when the IJN runs rampant. Granted, I've never played "all the way thru" (and I'm quite sure that no-one else has). But as long as you can keep IJN from getting an auto victory in '43, the Allied player -will- be able to take back the initiative. Play the game as if you have 1500 turns to accomplish your goals, because you do. Naturally, you want to defend PM and SoPac. But every base that you lose, is another base that IJN has to garrison and supply.

It's only important that the IJN not gain the auto-win in '43. But other than that, time is single greatest weapon in the Allied arsenal.

-F-

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 8:09:47 PM

Nikademus

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I think players tend to forget that the PacWar is above all else, a naval war. LCU's are important and certain bases are important-very important, but as a certain Chinese strategist once said, "He who defends everything, defends nothing". The Japanese player certainly has a quandry on his hands, if he defends vital or attractive/useful targets too thinly, that makes for a potential Allied target. If he defends a few targets too strongly, then that gives the Allied player many more options for alternate landings. The SoPac is particular throws in an additional problem....malaria. Over time it chips and chips and chips away at even the strongest Divisional LCU, requireing that it be rotated. Rotation requires that another DIV be avail to take it's place. If the Japanese (or Allied) player is too busy adventuring in some other part of the world, he wont be able to acomplish this mundane but vital piece of maintenance.

While such garrisoning requirements (and the provisioning of reserves) remain important, the biggest question will be on the naval and air side. If you have the assets to oppose an offensive move or at least win control around the contested area, you can null the power of the LCU's pretty quickly

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 8:32:04 PM

kaiser73

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yes. a base is important if:
1) holds vital resources for Japan or
2) have a huge VP or
3) holding it helps you damaging the enemy (by harassing his naval convoies, bombing industries, as step towards a new objective)

In '43 and after, when allies get the upper hand (or supposed to), all bases in southpacific, which have no resource nor VP worth the effort to try to hold are useful only if Japan from there can damage the allies or slow them down.

However, and this i don't know, will Japan have the pilots, airpower and supplies to defend from enemy incursions and be a threat to allies convoys?

PM is important for Japan to hold and for allies to take it back from Japs IF Japan can bomb australia or naval convoys from PM. if you can't do that cause allies can kill your air or you have no supplies, then you give Allies a huge advantage: to close down your airport making you unable to pose a threat to him and simply bypass it to attack where he likes while you have isolated divisions useless.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 8:43:14 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I one of my games, my Japanese opponent has sent 4 of the five divisions he used to conquer the PI south to Lae. One was sent to Java to take that and I assume will show up in Lae as well. I'm guessing he plans on using all five to hammer me in Port Morseby. And if/when he takes that, I'm guess three or four will be used to take Noumea. He will have one or two powerful full divisions in PM and one or two powerful divisions in Noumea with at least one reserve division in Lunga or Rabaul not to mention the South Seas Det and a couple of those Mixed Bde's laying around in reserve as well, probably at least on on Tarawa or Kawejelin. That's a pretty good defensive line there, especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

Ok, that doesn't sound too bad. (a defense line a bit longer than the historical) If he's has reserve divisions he'd better not be basing them at Rabaul or Lunga due to the malarial effect (a reserve div needs to be at 100% readiness and preferable (if possible) have it's obj set to the target the player most think's will be invaded in order to have maximum impact)

On the bright side if he has most of his combat power in the Solomons and PNG. (with a couple more divisions in Noumea) and the remainder sitting at Tarawa and Kalj. then that at least means that Oz is safe, and Burma wont be heating up. Even with Noumea in Japanese hands, the supply line to Oz can still be supplied via New Zealand. Less efficient and longer but doable.

Guess the point i'm making is that this scenerio is a far cry from the complaints that Japan would be able to exploit the rules to conquor the world. (india, China, Oz, etc )

Japan can't conquer everywhere. But they can make a pretty good run well beyond historical in at least one area. They can send all divisional size and mixed Bde LCU's to Burma and either back door China (why they'd want to I don't know, but they could) or make concerted effort to take the Dacca-Calcutta area with massive amphibious assualts supported by the KB and bombardment TF's but that leaves nothing for New Guinea or the Solomons. They can stick to historical Burmese action and stop there but choose to use those PI division in New Guinea or the Solomons, or choose a divisional size landing to take Midway (why again they'd want to do that, I have no idea, either). My hotseat opponent and my PBEM opponent seem hell-bent on forcing me to supply OZ by going along the bottom of the map for a while and forcing me to build up in Auckland instead of Noumea. My main focus in both, at this time, is avoiding the 4-1 AV at the end of 1942.....

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 9:35:48 PM

Chaplain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

I guess the most important question is ... why did you (foolishly) engage your carriers at such an early date?

Patience is the linchpin of Allied strategy. Personally, I avoid any major carrier engagement until at least June of 1942. As long as you hold Pearl, just keep singing, "Time is on my side, yes it is!"

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 9:45:45 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Japan can't conquer everywhere. But they can make a pretty good run well beyond historical in at least one area. They can send all divisional size and mixed Bde LCU's to Burma and either back door China (why they'd want to I don't know, but they could) or make concerted effort to take the Dacca-Calcutta area with massive amphibious assualts supported by the KB and bombardment TF's but that leaves nothing for New Guinea or the Solomons.

exactly....which was part of the reason why Japan didn't historically.

India has little to offer Japan in the long run other than making Allied players sweat.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 10:21:05 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

I guess the most important question is ... why did you (foolishly) engage your carriers at such an early date?

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Post #: 24

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 10:26:11 PM

Halsey

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I'd love to see my opponents go after SWPAC and SOPAC theatres.
By the fall of 42 the colonial forces in India represent around three corps! Not counting the SEAC Chinese forces. Just let me get an airfield within range of the DEI! That's all I want.

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RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 10:50:20 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

Just let me get an airfield within range of the DEI! That's all I want.

Maybe you could invade Timor

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Post #: 26

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 10:52:06 PM

KPAX

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

I guess the most important question is ... why did you (foolishly) engage your carriers at such an early date? Patience is the linchpin of Allied strategy. Personally, I avoid any major carrier engagement until at least June of 1942. As long as you hold Pearl, just keep singing, "Time is on my side, yes it is!"

I have five carriers that carry 92 combat aircraft of decent experience vs 6 KB carriers with either 84 or 72 combat a/c. By this point the game, this player had flogged the KB in support of landings in Sumatra and Java as well as a raid on Colombo and Diamond Harbor. I have one carrier sunk, outright, 2 with greater then 70 sys damage one with critical float damage, and one with 35 and the other with 22 sys damage. I severly damaged Akagi ahd Shikaku, one or the other may sink from float damage before they reach port and probably moderately to heavy damages two others. I get whatever sunk carriers back as Essex boats. the Jap player gets NONE back. And his lost pilots are irreplaceable, mine are all very replaceable. Decent trade off for me.

Zoo, I agree whole-heartly with you.

At this point in the game, if you can sink 1 of his for 2-3 of yours, you are ahead.

Even if you do not sink any of them, loss one or two of yours, and do sever damage to his, you are ahread. The time to repair his is substantial and you will have new ones on line soon.

Plus there is some revenge to getting him at least a bit bloody for the flogging he has done to you for a while.

Go for it !!

As Japan, in my PBEM game, I got lucky and caught one of his carriers in Dec 1941. It was pure lucky as I was coming back from PH and shot a bit SW of JOhnston on the hope to catch something, anything. I caught a CV and sunk it with no cost to me. Right now the oceans are mine. I will take advantage of this, by making my presence known in Solomon, but do not intent to go nuts on his shipping to Oz.

Nice job .....

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Thanks !!

KPAX

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Post #: 27

RE: PNG defense? - 9/28/2004 10:57:36 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

especially with 3 of my 5 carriers sunk/severley damaged and the other 2 with at least a month of repair needed, in a bad battle with KB already.... (Apr, 1942).

I guess the most important question is ... why did you (foolishly) engage your carriers at such an early date? Patience is the linchpin of Allied strategy. Personally, I avoid any major carrier engagement until at least June of 1942. As long as you hold Pearl, just keep singing, "Time is on my side, yes it is!"

I have five carriers that carry 92 combat aircraft of decent experience vs 6 KB carriers with either 84 or 72 combat a/c. By this point the game, this player had flogged the KB in support of landings in Sumatra and Java as well as a raid on Colombo and Diamond Harbor. I have one carrier sunk, outright, 2 with greater then 70 sys damage one with critical float damage, and one with 35 and the other with 22 sys damage. I severly damaged Akagi ahd Shikaku, one or the other may sink from float damage before they reach port and probably moderately to heavy damages two others. I get whatever sunk carriers back as Essex boats. the Jap player gets NONE back. And his lost pilots are irreplaceable, mine are all very replaceable. Decent trade off for me.

Zoo, I agree whole-heartly with you.

At this point in the game, if you can sink 1 of his for 2-3 of yours, you are ahead.

Even if you do not sink any of them, loss one or two of yours, and do sever damage to his, you are ahread. The time to repair his is substantial and you will have new ones on line soon.

Plus there is some revenge to getting him at least a bit bloody for the flogging he has done to you for a while.

Go for it !!

As Japan, in my PBEM game, I got lucky and caught one of his carriers in Dec 1941. It was pure lucky as I was coming back from PH and shot a bit SW of JOhnston on the hope to catch something, anything. I caught a CV and sunk it with no cost to me. Right now the oceans are mine. I will take advantage of this, by making my presence known in Solomon, but do not intent to go nuts on his shipping to Oz.

Nice job .....

Yea, I lost the Lex on about turn 2 from a similar move by my opponent in a PBEM game. But, if I managed to get to late March or early April, I can put my Allied "KB" with 460 combat aircraft on 5 CVs against the KB with a max of about 390 a/c on 6CVs. Now the KB crews have a higher experience rating and both sides will take hits from the "conegestion rule" calcs, but that 5 CV TF should be able to get a pretty good lick on the KB.

I ain't afraid a no stinkin' KB!!!

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 28

RE: PNG defense? - 9/29/2004 3:55:02 AM

esteban

Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline

I'd say the Allies should position their units to hold North Oz and Noumea first. Trying to hold PM is a thankless task. With a good effort at the Phillipines, the Japanese can roll over New Guinea in March/April with 3-4 divisions and KB if they want to.

This will be especially true once the starting OOB is fixed, and the 3rd NZ and 2nd marine divisions have their arrival pushed back to historic dates.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 29

RE: PNG defense? - 9/29/2004 5:19:07 AM

tanker4145

Posts: 190
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

I'm surprised that most players seem to advocate trying to defend PM. I really expected more people to say it was largely a waste. Or maybe all the people saying to go ahead and defend PM are Japanes fanboys?!