General Question about BiN

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General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 12:28:08 AM

Kelm

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Hello,

I play with BiN since several days, and maybe i'am really wrong with this game, but i'am not able to win or make just a draw with any scenarios. I have just finish the Carentan scenario, with the allied, and the best i can, is a marginal victory for the germans.

To be really honest, i have also KP, and the only scenario where i can make good result are the small one, like "Wicking Whiteout", or "Race to Meuse", or scenarios like "trouble in Bastogne" available on SSG website.

I have also try (and lost) the Cherbourg scenario; and i have also play it, with both computer side, to see the result, at least the allied computer also loose against the german computer opponent.

My question is, how a newbie like me can improve his level ?
because it's very discouraging after many trials, to see i can not found any better tactics...

PS: i'am sorry to post a such stupid question for my first post...but like i don't find any solution, i hope that several vetrans players, can help me with their own experience.

Post #: 1

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 12:35:58 AM

marc420

Posts: 224
Joined: 9/23/2002
From: Terrapin Station
Status: offline

Hey, all of us had to learn somewhere.

One suggestion might be to read the After Action Reports on the SSG website. Go to SSG's website, and I think the AARs are now under replays on the menu on the left.

These AARs are usually the SSG game designers and the scenario designers playing a game, showing screen shots of the turns and doing a running commentary, so they are useful.

For general principles, at the very end of the BIN manual there are some general concepts of how to play.

I think they are on the Discussions page of the SSG site, but a player named Pterrok (sp?) has done some nice articles on the CRT's and odds in attacks.

Generally, these games are designed nicely, so general historical principles can be applied. Having read Guderian's book, I was able to feel as if the principles he talks about were very applicable to the games.

In general, you need to concentrate for strong attacks. Artillery is very important and probably a key to successful attacks. I've seen one of the top PBEM players say that understanding the supply system is key to playing the game. My general process in a turn is to try to simultaneously make the attacks I need to damage my opponent while trying to maintain a good defensive position to fend off the inevitable counter attacks.

PS ... the AI in this game is pretty good. Especially BIN's.

< Message edited by marc420 -- 9/28/2004 10:37:03 PM >

_____________________________

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. ~George Washington

(in reply to Kelm)

Post #: 2

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 1:11:13 AM

Kelm

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Tanks for your answer,
i will go on SSG website to check this AAR.

The main problem for me with BiN, is to make quick and deep penetration in enemy territory, in my last game (Carentan) i was able to destroy 22 germans unit, and lose only 3 allied units, despite this, the only town where i was able to quickly capture was 'Le Molay' and in the final turn les 'Oubeaux'.

I have never try to attack the german line of defense just in front of Carentan, cause i have never had a positive ratio, or one or several "good" green position of attacks.
I have also in this game try to advance by 'St Jores' (West of the map), it's really possible because the german only send second line troops, but the supply can not, follow in the same time the troops fixed just in front of Carentan, and and the troops just of the north of St Jores.

In fact the main problem, is how to make a deep and quick penetration in enemy territory, and how quickly destroy a strong opposition:

For enemy units with two units dots, it's possible if you have at least two green attacks position to destroy it, in one turn even without artillery; but when you meet a strong opposition, like two regiments in the same hex with three or four units dots for each, even with a strong attackers forces, (when you can place them in good position), the better result you can have, is two or three enemy units dots destroys, and after that a retreat in a back hex for these same enemy units. So you must wait for the next turn to finish them, when the computer side have not replaced this damaged units, with fresh ones.

< Message edited by Kelm -- 9/28/2004 11:12:03 PM >

(in reply to marc420)

Post #: 3

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 1:42:05 AM

Gregor_SSG

Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelm

Hello,

I play with BiN since several days, and maybe i'am really wrong with this game, but i'am not able to win or make just a draw with any scenarios. I have just finish the Carentan scenario, with the allied, and the best i can, is a marginal victory for the germans.

Might I suggest the following. Play a few turns of the Breakout scenario as the Germans against the Allied AI. Take careful note of your forces, and the way in which the AI attacks them.

Then start a new game playing as the Allies against the German AI. You will already have a good idea of where attacks are possible and how to get a good start.

One word of caution. Even in the Breakout scenario, where the odds are heavily stacked in favour of the Allies, you won't be able to make deep penetrations straight away. You'll notice that all the US armoured divisions aren't even available at the start of the game!

Your plan here is to kill as many Germans as possible with Infantry and Artillery combined. You have huge amounts of artillery, so make sure you use it well.

Every casualty you cause stretches the Germans even further, and forces them to commit all their panzers to just holding the line. When you've got them in this state, and your armour becomes available, choose a beakthrough sector, mass your artillery and armour and then go for your life.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Kelm)

Post #: 4

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 2:36:50 AM

Kelm

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Thanks for your idea...

In fact, when writing this post, i have restarted the Wicking whiteout scenar from KP, and i have the feeling, that the AI is more interested by taking opportunity of attacking (and destroy) an alone unit, than have a solid frontline, or a real strategy of defense or attack.

By exemple, in this scenario, on the third turn, one on my supply truck was just behind the town of Annovka, i have placed this truck here, to cover the 6th infantry div, who was out of supply range near Muni. In the same time the (i play with the german), the Pzd Wicking was near Muni, and the the PzD LAH in advance in hex 18.9 and hex 19.9. i have send these 2 PzD in these area, in response of soviet advance.

Then arrives the computer turn, Soviet computer player have retreated his units, (despite just a few losses, and a real number superiority) both from Muni and hex around the LAH, and send an only unit to Annovka, with the goal to destroy my supply truck...

In BiN, when i take the city of 'Le Moley', it's because the computer have replaced a large part of his unit to block the path of the Oubleaux city, and by making this left empty the hex from this town.

Maybe i say a real nonsense, i have the feeling that the computer has not an overal particular goal in a scenario, like defending key point, or maintain a coherent frontline, he only react when he can see an opening in our frontline, even if there is not any particular victory area, or if there is an unit, who is drestroyable quickly in one turn.

I dont' know if i'am very clear (i'am just french, sorry...), but it's the first time i have this feeling, when playing a wargame, and it's not a critical judgement about BiN or KP.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)

Post #: 5

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 2:52:22 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

Play a game Human vs Human and play against yourself

It gives you an indication of the difficulties the opponent is facing

Re-do all the tutorials and you will find out how to get more shifts.

Think about how to preserve OPs

Practise making 2 attacks on one hex in one turn - without leaving your defense line vacant

Don't make attacks at HIGHER odds than you need

-

_____________________________

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)

Post #: 6

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 4:23:31 AM

Rainbow7

Posts: 404
Joined: 11/4/2003
From: Ottawa
Status: offline

All the advice mentioned above is good. But let me draw attention to what Joe 98 mentioned (almost in passing). It's not always better to go for the green (10:1+) odds, especially if this pulls units from other important positions. You can often set two or more lower odds attacks in a row, which is far more devastativing for your opponent. These aren't always easy to see, but I've been hurt in pbem games by opponents using the old 1-2 punch. So don't ignore the yellow-coloured attack odds, try to attack in the clear, setup a 1-2 punch, and pay special attention to whether two dice might be rolled.

_____________________________

Troubles overcome are good to tell. -Yiddish saying

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 7

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 9:38:07 AM

Gregor_SSG

Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelm

Thanks for your idea...

In fact, when writing this post, i have restarted the Wicking whiteout scenar from KP, and i have the feeling, that the AI is more interested by taking opportunity of attacking (and destroy) an alone unit, than have a solid frontline, or a real strategy of defense or attack.

At this point in time, nobody has got a computer to think like a human, certainly when trying to deal with something as complicated and unpredictable as a wargame.

When we program the AI, we are just trying to make it look like it's making real strategic decisions, when in reality it's just playing with numbers.

Remember, the AI is already as smart as it's ever going to get, while you have plenty of opportunity to learn and improve your play.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Kelm)

Post #: 8

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 1:01:55 PM

Kelm

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Thanks a lot for all the advice.

I will try to pay more attention in how preserve OP for my unit, despite it's not very easy, because sometimes, i use a lot of OP to replace my unit, for having a good rate of success in a particular attack. I will also try, not to often ignore the yellow coloured attack odds, maybe i'am too careful/afraid about having losses for my own units.

For the AI, you are right, maybe my last remark was a litle stupid, but sometimes, i'am very astonish to see the AI leave a good defensive position, only to make a good attack for a low interest unit. Like i already said, it's not a critical judgement about your game or the AI, like these last is already as smart to defeat me more often than me.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)

Post #: 9

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 6:05:04 PM

hellycoptair

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/23/2004
Status: offline

I would suggest playing a few PBEM games against opponents that are willing to explain why and how they do things.

(in reply to Kelm)

Post #: 10

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 7:00:06 PM

marc420

Posts: 224
Joined: 9/23/2002
From: Terrapin Station
Status: offline

One note is that a Supply Truck is not a "low interest unit". (Sorry if I got that wrong, as I'm taking info from a couple of your posts).

First off, if you check the Supply Truck, they are usually very expensive in terms of Victory Pts.

Second, if your supply trucks get destroyed, then the supply troubles you mention will only get worse.

So if you stop and think about it, it may not be odd at all for the AI to target this unit.

In general, a couple of things that happened historically in Normandy, and which this game seems to model rather well seem to be happening here.

The bocage territory is very rough terrain to try to attack through. Even small groups of an enemy can hold you up. This seems to be modeled rather well in BIN, especially when you roll a 1 or a 2 on a 10-1+ attack. That might be a reason to try a couple of 5-1's instead of a 10-1+. But then 5-1 wasn't a very pretty CRT either IIRC.

Second, historically the Allies did have supply problems in trying to supply an invasion through a beach. The mulberry's help when they come in. But still, one of the major goals of the Allies was to capture Cherbourg to help ease the supply problems.

So it may not be bad play on your part that's causing the Allies to fail to have big armored breakthroughs rolling through the Norman countryside. In some ways its just the accuracy of the historical simulation.

_____________________________

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. ~George Washington

(in reply to Kelm)

Post #: 11

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 8:29:16 PM

pterrok

Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline

I'm the guy wrote the article mentioned above, which can be found:

here.

(I really need to write one specifically for BiN, but substitute 'bocage' for 'forest' in the article as you read it to get the general idea.)

The 5-1 is not a bad chart to use on bocage: you have expected losses of .5 units every time you launch an attack and the enemy losses are also .5 units.

The 4-1 column is not bad, either, .5 loss for the attacker and .33 for the defender. This is one to launch when you can't get a 5-1.

But you DO want to keep chipping away. You need 4 steps to prevent an overrun; keep removing these steps from a defender and all of a sudden a stack can crack.

As the steps are taken off the defender you may also be reducing their AT values so that you can get a +1 or +2 on an attack. If you can get a +2, a 2-1 is equivalent to a 5-1 as far as expected losses are concerned!

(in reply to marc420)

Post #: 12

RE: General Question about BiN - 9/29/2004 10:48:38 PM

Kelm

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Today, i have played the Cherbourg scenario, and this time i have followed several advice found in response of my first question.

I have finished the scenario again; with an overwhelming victory...for the germans, but this time in i was able to open a road to Cherbourg. In tour 7, two regiments from the 79th Inf Div and two bataillons of cavalry were just in front of the Cherbourg fortifications...but too late for taking the towns from the germans.
I have followed several advice, like attack at 5-1 or try to attack twice the same enemy units in one turn.
In fact i have started by this, to make limited attacks just for open an hex for advancing my unit, and keep heavy attacks with heavy artillery support for taking several key Hexs.

Despite the final score, this time i was able to take four locations; Montebourg, Valognes, Dealsse and Saussemesnil, and have a clear path for my units between Cherbourg fortifications and Valognes.

Like i have already said, many Thanks for all people who help me with their advice, with your help, i understand and think a little better (i hope) the games mechanics.

For Marc420,

You are right, supply truck are not a low interest unit, but it's the computer choice to retreat his unit from both these location, and just advance a cavalry bataillon to destroy my supply truck, who astonish me. I have only one division in each of these two locations, and even if i have not see what type of enemy units were in place near my two PzD, their number were greatly superior, and like the scenario is an open meet between to advancing formations...

(in reply to pterrok)

Post #: 13