Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment

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Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 2:46:22 AM

madmickey

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Radar type is listed but sonar information is not listed. How does a DD/DE find ships underwater?

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 9:03:27 AM

Wildhack

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Because I'd guess the "Anti-Submarine" rating of a ship is considered an adequete representation of this piece of equipment.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 9:09:50 AM

Twotribes

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All the ASW rating on the ship screen is, is the number of Depth charge launchers the ship has.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 9:26:04 AM

Tankerace

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I won't swear to it, but I am guessing that all destroyers, destroyer escorts, sub chasers, and patrol craft are assumed to have some sort of passive sonar or ASDIC. Being set in WWI, this would not be the case, but by WW2 when the main role of the tin can had changed from the "Torpedo Boat Destroyer" to a more ASW role, and considering DEs, SCs, and PCs were purpose built ASW ships, I think this would probably be a safe bet.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 10:40:30 AM

madmickey

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Tankerace
Do MSW and PG carry Sonar. Is there better quality sonar?

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 7:09:06 PM

Tankerace

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Not sure on MSW and PG. I believe that DM and DMS's do, but not sure on those. They might have a passive sonar suite, but nothing really up to the task of tracking and hunting down submarines.

As to beter quality sonar, from a real life perspective, the UK had the best, the US fair but improving (late war), and Japanese the worst, which did improve, but not near to the extend of Allied sonar.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 7:35:23 PM

Feinder

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I would submit that SONAR is probably (most) reflected in the accuracy ratings of the DCs themselves.

As alluded to before, the "ASW Rating" of a ship, is simply a reference number for the player, so that he knows what to put (or not to put in a TF). Remember there are quite a few players who don't know the difference between a CA, CV, or DE (at least there were these basic questions in Uncommon Valor, long ago).

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 8:40:12 PM

Tankerace

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In game terms, yes, that is probably true. As in my first post, I was speaking from a historical perspective.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 9:21:19 PM

madmickey

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Some USN MSW have higher ASW than some USN destroyer this is based on number of weapons. MSW can join ASW TF.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/29/2004 11:30:34 PM

Ron Saueracker

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I think sonar capability is ship type specific. I believe any ship originally equipped with ASW weapons in the game has it, or the simulated fit based on their ability to engage subs in the game. Reason I say this is because initially I placed DCs on some USN PT Boats (the Higgins built ones I believe) within the refit upgrades but these were removed by the designers.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 12:10:48 AM

Feinder

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And you could also argue :

"Why would you put DCs on a ship, that DIDN'T have sonar?"

Without sonar, you really would have little to no chance of hitting anything, because you'd be dropping totally blind.

So the inference is, if a ship has DCs, it is inferred that it has some sonar capability (once again, the quality of sonar is probably reflected in the accuracy of the DC).

-F-

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 12:29:39 AM

Tankerace

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Like Ron pointed out, for a time US PT boats (Higgins and Elco 77 footers) carried DCs, yet had no sonar. There are 2 schools of thought when using depth charges. Either 1) you try and sink the sub, or 2) you keep it from attacking. In practice, a depth charge is not very efficient at sinking a sub, with or without sonar. BUT, if you drop DCs over where you think a sub might be, you can force it to stay down. With DCs blowing up every now and then, a sub commander is NOT going to come up to PD to take a look. And unless he is in a Type XXI U-boat, then he cannot attack if he isn't at periscope depth.

So, as to your argument:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

And you could also argue :

"Why would you put DCs on a ship, that DIDN'T have sonar?"

Without sonar, you really would have little to no chance of hitting anything, because you'd be dropping totally blind.

So the inference is, if a ship has DCs, it is inferred that it has some sonar capability (once again, the quality of sonar is probably reflected in the accuracy of the DC).

-F-

Remember this. The way a WW2 sonar operated, at about a range of 50-100 yards, you would lose contact anyway. Thus, while you would have a *better* idea of where a sub is, in reality you are just as blind as if you didn't have sonar. Dropping DCs was mostly guess work. Either keep the sub down, or sink it.

So, yes, not all DC or hedgehog armed ships had sonar (A good bulk of the US Flush Deckers can attest to that. Many did NOT have sonar until the 1930s, yet carried a DC armament).

Oh, I just remembered. Ernest Borgnine served on a sloop/yacht in WW2, that was converted for subhunting. It carried a small compliment of DCs, yet had no sonar.

While in game terms sonar might be inferred via DCs, that doesn't mean that all DC armed ships should have sonar.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 12:34:32 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

And you could also argue :

"Why would you put DCs on a ship, that DIDN'T have sonar?"

Without sonar, you really would have little to no chance of hitting anything, because you'd be dropping totally blind.

So the inference is, if a ship has DCs, it is inferred that it has some sonar capability (once again, the quality of sonar is probably reflected in the accuracy of the DC).

-F-

Planes carried them. PTs had them as they could speed over a recently submeged sub and hope for the best. Many ships early war simply had passive acoustic devices with no ranging ability but had DCs.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 5:46:55 AM

Jmsimer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Some USN MSW have higher ASW than some USN destroyer this is based on number of weapons. MSW can join ASW TF.

I noticed this and have tried forming MSWs into ASW task forces to see how they do. they will kill subs, but will lose a lot more of their own number in the process than a comparable DD ASW task force

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 6:00:58 AM

madmickey

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JMsimmer I use msw as escort on tranport tf.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 3:29:57 PM

Feinder

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Planes and DCs - Well, in that case, they're spotting the subs from the air (you can see a sub from the air, even if it's submerged to about 50').

But that's interesting. I didn't realize so many ships had DCs, and did NOT have sonar. I figured that something like a PT boat wouldn't necessarly have sonar, but I didn't realize that even some of the larger classes were not equipped.

You learn something new every day. Does that mean I can go home now?!

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/30/2004 8:30:37 AM >

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 4:51:04 PM

Mr.Frag

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A nice link for you:

http://uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 4:54:41 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Planes and DCs - Well, in that case, they're spotting the subs from the air (you can see a sub from the air, even if it's submerged to about 50').

But that's interesting. I didn't realize so many ships had DCs, and did NOT have sonar. I figured that something like a PT boat wouldn't necessarly have sonar, but I didn't realize that even some of the larger classes were not equipped.

You learn something new every day. Does that mean I can go home now?!

-F-

Just think about when the depth charge was devised...WWI. No SONAR or ASDIC then.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 6:53:12 PM

Tankerace

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The Brits had ASDIC in WWI, but it was extremly primitive. Still, you are right, in most cases they had no sonar, yet gobs of depth charges.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:02:52 PM

Mr.Frag

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Remember, subs were surface ships that could hide underwater when threatened early on.

When spotted, they would dive. The spotting ship would be charging for them and toss DC's where they dove ... the early depth charges didn't even have a setting for the depth they exploded at. No ASDIC required during the early years of sub warfare.

Later with bigger banks of batteries and more powerful engines, subs could stay down much longer and it became mandatory.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:11:00 PM

Tankerace

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Yep.

Also, I have a quick question on DC modeling in the game. Is it possible to simulate a dud rate? If memory serves me, a good portion of the time, early DCs wouldn't even detonate. And in early WW2, the WWI era DCs still had the same problem.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:12:39 PM

Montbrun

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Absolutely correct. WWI-II subs were, in fact, submersibles, not true submarines...

Brad

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:13:42 PM

Tankerace

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I seem to remember hearing a US admiral call them "Submersible PT boats". LOL. Just don't tell that to a submariner.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:14:06 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Yep.

Also, I have a quick question on DC modeling in the game. Is it possible to simulate a dud rate? If memory serves me, a good portion of the time, early DCs wouldn't even detonate. And in early WW2, the WWI era DCs still had the same problem.

I'd be happy with reduced accuracy at this point. That and randomize belt hits so that more deck hits result (less flooding...more system damage).

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 9/30/2004 7:17:27 PM

Tankerace

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Yeah. Right now I am trying to figure out how to not have "uber" DCs in the WPO project. That could be a game killer. Im thinking either attempting to drastically reduce accuracy, or give ahistorically few amounts of DCs to ships.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 10/1/2004 4:22:13 AM

mikemike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Like Ron pointed out, for a time US PT boats (Higgins and Elco 77 footers) carried DCs, yet had no sonar.

Depth charges were not just for ASW, especially on PT boats (or similar vessels in other navies). Drop a DC close to a surface vessel and you can blow it right out of the water or at least damage it severely. It makes more sense to use DCs to sink barges than torps. Also, DCs are an economical way to kill survivors swimming in the water. Doesn�t tire out your machine gunners.

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RE: Why is sonar not listed in ship equipment - 10/2/2004 11:54:40 AM

tigercub

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Hi

The small coastal and harbour patrol boats like PTs would be watching the bouys attached to harbour netting. If an intruding sub had fouled the netting it would pull the bouys down giving away its position. A fast PT could respond quickly to the site and drop DCs on the sub even though it didn't have sonar. The depth of the harbour entrance would reduced the need to set the DC. Both sides would be able to do this.

PS. The Pacific Ocean was suprising clear to a reasonable depth in WWII and a long sub at a shallow depth was still an easy target if a sited early enough to get your PT boat overhead. Even though the sub might have submerged it was still visible. So no sonar was needed for some harbours.

< Message edited by tigercub -- 10/2/2004 10:00:38 AM >

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