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Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 5:53:29 PM   
strawbuk


Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline 		Bearing in mind Ron's views on ASW and sub performance in WITP it amusing that the Canadian Navy got stung when the brought 4 ex RN subs this year which appear er... less than active for duty.

Now look it is not good bleating about wanting your money back. If you buy used naval hardware of Ebay, 'pizza sized dents in the hull*' are a risk. Did nobody check the UK Min of Defence ebay seller rating? It's awful! See what the Saudis said about the Challenger contract ande Brit squaddies about that pair of boots they brought last year.

Yes the four U-class boats (Unfit, Unseaworthy*, Undermaintained* and Unuseable) may be a little rusty but hey why do want ultra quiet subs anyway? Trying to get round the whaling ban?


* Canadian naval spokesman - are we now to measure all naval damage in fast food - 'I shot him ful of burger buns or 'the Yamato's armour was defintely penetrated by a 1000lb hotdog'.

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Post #: 1
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 6:15:35 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		As I understand it there is nothing wrong with the subs, except when they were pulled from mothballed state they had some cracked and broken seals that delayed delivery.

The delay is in the installment of Canadian equipment on to the subs. I guess they dont want to be buying from the Brits for ever so wanted to change stuff to their own.

Seeing as how the defense budget in Canada is a joke, no wonder they are having trouble getting them worked up to full operational status with weapons installed.

(in reply to strawbuk)
Post #: 2
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 6:18:13 PM   
canuck64


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		well now there are set of illustrious arguments for the defense. Please!

I do better justifying a marijuana dealership. Saying Canada got taken, which happens to buyers all the time on ebay, is a little like saying, 'let the buyer beware'-which admittedly, is Canada's fault to take. It just doesn't make a lot of money-sense on Britain's part.

Listen, in defence of my homeland, I can offer you this. ANY effort that Canada makes on its military would be wise to buffer, as only US and Brit kit would get bought anyway. Given Canada's wealth, but indifference to things military (except as a last resort), you'd think Britain would settle down and look forward to screwing Canada gently, over a period of years. But a pat on the head and a half-stale wafer after a good butt-working-over for four subs seems a bit trite and ill thought-out.

The US sells us stuff all the time. Witness the 150 top-knotch f-18s we bought from them back in the late 80's. Of course, WE fly them at and around Cold Lake Alberta (a fitting name I assure you) where ice build up on the wings had people calling them the Widowmakers....something the US hadn't really built them for in the first place.
Of course in Canada, you don't give much of a damn about the pilot. In fact, better not expect us to send out a search party on your behalf if you down a billion dollar plane....unlike the US (remember that US pilot in Serbia?)....we'll train another pilot, thank you very much...

Point of it is, we had to retrofit ALL of those f-18's, as the US Navy had never thought to really put them through trials at the north pole... which meant going BACK to the US for more purchases...
Canada will screw itself, rest assured, which means spend more money eventually, to buy left-over and out of date technology, and then mis-apply it, needing more money to retrofit.

Britain should look more toward long term relationship of take and take, given the state of its economy, than an immediate "HAHA! YOU GOT TOOK!" Just a thought towards how to make money. US readers, please give the Brits a copy of "wealth of nations" by Kennedy....

As for us Canucks...well, hells' bells-My mom works for NATO for Canada. She took me to the Canadian 'fleet' of subs in the late 80's. They were the same boats used in ww2. You cannot imagine the smell of human bodies embedded in those vehicles after 35 years.
Some dents in relatively modern boats should be the least of our worries. Our navy just upgunned itself by about 50 percent by my reckoning.
Amazingly enough, during one of my searches late at night, I discovered that CANADA AT ONE TIME HAD A/C CARRIERS!!!!

I kid you not-end of WW2, 50's, Korea-era it looks like we had some CVE's (and that's using the term generously)-largely for ASW heli ops and the like, but I gather at one point real planes were on em....good god almighty....

(in reply to strawbuk)
Post #: 3
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 7:25:08 PM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB

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Post #: 4
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 7:53:53 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Ha, ha, ha.... Actually pretty sad when the most "effective" branch of our military is the naval branch considering thestate it is in. It's not just the pathetic budget dragging down the military, it's the incredibly ridiculous demands and limitations placed on it by our even more idiotic politicians.

A large portion of our military are officers, and not field officers...staff officers. Most medium to high level civil service jobs go to university grads, and our military is now more an extension of our pathetic civil service than a useful organization. So top heavy with beauracrats that it is simply embarassing. Our Minister of defence has no idea what Vimy Ridge is to the military and our current PM placed Juno beach in Norway.

A few examples of our military beaurocracy in action. The research and development of combat uniforms for pregnant women. The "grey water" study and implementation....millions spent on filtering bath/shaving water waste (ships will now have to filter this while bilge and bathroom waste is still dumped I believe) and, get this, it is now no longer allowable for soldiers in the field to simply dump their soapy wash water from their wash basins onto the ground! Still use White Phosphorous rounds but don't drop the soap. LOL The Upholders were even supposed to provide duplicate privacy facilities for women...submarines are a tight fit and they were debating whether vanity sinks and mirrors were to be installed. "Remove those torpedo tubes and make way for the bath!"

I left in 1991 because of **** like this. My country is going to hell.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 10/5/2004 12:55:40 PM >

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 5
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 8:02:03 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB


Give me a break.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 6
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 8:05:37 PM   
Zeta16


Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline 		Well it looks like a one of their subs is having a problem off the Irish coast.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041005/1/3nk9j.html

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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 7
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 8:10:42 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Well it looks like a one of their subs is having a problem off the Irish coast.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041005/1/3nk9j.html


That's a picture of an old Oberon class SSK but holy crap, I wonder what's going on?

Here's an idea how screwed our country is. Top CBC News Net stories...Throne speech, gas prices, online used car scams. Good grief!

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 10/5/2004 1:13:26 PM >

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 8
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 8:25:10 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Apparentlya fire broke out. Crew safe. Propulsion out. Being towed back to Faslane, Scotland after acceptance trials. Oooops. Hope they got the guarantee.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 9
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 10:10:07 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I think the message here is not so much don't give Canadians subs, but don't by them from Britiain.

I still think it is funny that Canada is the only country we (the US) ever tried to invade, and got kicked out. See, the Canadian military isn't all that bad... course, that was 188 years ago, but hey.

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Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 10
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 10:27:28 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		That's because our Secretary of War (or whatever they called him) was an idiot. He got sacked after Washington was fired. It did scare the bejesus out of the Baltimore defenders though, they put up a helluva fight!
The best thing about the War of 1812 was Dolly Madison, boy do I love her honey buns!

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Post #: 11
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/5/2004 11:30:54 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Acceptance trials or prep work for Canada's invasion of Ireland? They would look deceivingly similiar.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 12
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 1:39:02 AM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB


Maybe tired's the word

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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 13
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 3:31:10 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		In an interesting parallel to Canada's plight it's my understanding that New Zealand's air force has been reduced by budget cuts to a force in name only. Interesting article in Jane's. Apparently all future priority will be given to the army's ability to participate in peace support operations and other multinational operations.

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/jdw/jdw010514_1_n.shtml

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Post #: 14
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 4:29:23 AM   
dday


Posts: 64
Joined: 7/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hey I'm Canadian too <eh>, I agree with Ron 100%! Our rotten Armed Forces is so rotten .....
Please Mr. Bush <Kerry> invade us, we got nothing here to stop ya <eh>.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 15
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 4:41:01 AM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		When the sub deal was signed, no less an authority than "Jane's" called it the " deal of the CENTURY", meaning it was great for Canada.

British equipment aboard is being replaced with state-of-the-art US submarine equipment.

Canadian ships process all wastewater to the highest standards in the world. There is NO discharge of ANY oily waste or fuel save by rare human error. "Black Water" (sewage) and "Grey Water" ( showers and dishwashing) are treated in "bookcells" in a processing compartment.

If desired, oily waste can be processed using a device which renders the oil concentration down to a few ( <15 or so) parts per million. The sludge will be kept aboard. Generally though, all oily water is kept and pumped to a licensed processing and disposal contractor in port at great cost.

All recyclables are processing or stored aboard as well. Plastics are melted into large frisbee-like discs and saved until the next port.

GREENPEACE ships on the next jetty pump raw sewage overboard.

FYI the Canadian Navy just completed Operation Apollo, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. A Canadian naval officer was responsible for several years for the area which includes the Strait of Hormuz - often referred to as "The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life".

Canadian navy ships routinely deploy as integral members of USN Battlegroups and Strike Groups. This is possible only as significant investment has been made to ensure command, control and communications equipment remain compatible with the USN, the navy of Canada's most important ally and fellow NATO member.

Gimblett's book on "Operation Apollo" states it clearly. The Canadian Navy "has no peer competitor".

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 16
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 5:14:17 AM   
GBirkn


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline 		I'm glad to hear that the crew is OK, and hope they all make port safely. According to the BBC they're having some trouble with winds and heavy seas; it must be an unpleasant ride and then some on the surface in an unpowered submarine.

Platoonist, that's an interesting story. I see it's dated 2001 -- does anyone know if NZ actually went ahead with that plan?

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Post #: 17
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 5:50:23 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		GBirkn. Yup. Looks like Kiwis did go ahead with it. Here is a page showing the current order of battle for the RNZAF.

http://www.scramble.nl/nz.htm

Pretty much paired down to some ASW aircraft, helos and transport planes.

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Post #: 18
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 5:53:11 AM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		Forget submarines.
Let return the British parliamentary system it is little more than an elected dictatorship.

(in reply to GBirkn)
Post #: 19
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 6:29:22 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

When the sub deal was signed, no less an authority than "Jane's" called it the " deal of the CENTURY", meaning it was great for Canada.

British equipment aboard is being replaced with state-of-the-art US submarine equipment.

Canadian ships process all wastewater to the highest standards in the world. There is NO discharge of ANY oily waste or fuel save by rare human error. "Black Water" (sewage) and "Grey Water" ( showers and dishwashing) are treated in "bookcells" in a processing compartment.

If desired, oily waste can be processed using a device which renders the oil concentration down to a few ( <15 or so) parts per million. The sludge will be kept aboard. Generally though, all oily water is kept and pumped to a licensed processing and disposal contractor in port at great cost.

All recyclables are processing or stored aboard as well. Plastics are melted into large frisbee-like discs and saved until the next port.

GREENPEACE ships on the next jetty pump raw sewage overboard.

FYI the Canadian Navy just completed Operation Apollo, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. A Canadian naval officer was responsible for several years for the area which includes the Strait of Hormuz - often referred to as "The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life".

Canadian navy ships routinely deploy as integral members of USN Battlegroups and Strike Groups. This is possible only as significant investment has been made to ensure command, control and communications equipment remain compatible with the USN, the navy of Canada's most important ally and fellow NATO member.

Gimblett's book on "Operation Apollo" states it clearly. The Canadian Navy "has no peer competitor".


I'm not dumping on the Canadian Navy at all. I'm dumping all over the command structures (National Defence HQ...what a brass heavy office party) of the Canadian military and the politicians which make an impossible job even more so. It's amazing that they can perform at all. I'm also a big Upholder fan, great boat. Price was better in an earlier "failed" deal (government again) but hey, still a great deal.

Who cares about waste water (small amounts) when we dump raw sewage into waterways as a SOP, strip mine the oceans of sea life and otherwise pollute and exploit the environment to criminal degrees. Grey water efforts are another massive waste of money and yet another example of completey fouled priorities.

"The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life". What kind of silly statement is this? I don't get it. There are lots of reasons for the failure of our way of life and geography is not one of them. We are lucky as hell in this regard. I'd list greed and rabid consumerism as a start.

NATO is an anachronism. Kinda like a gun club these days. Got a question...Who are we allied against?

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 20
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 7:05:25 AM   
ritterkruz

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Canada's Pacific Island.
Status: offline 		Got another one for you as we share our angst over Canada's current military strength. Driving into Victoria, B.C., one sees the grand sign,"Home to Canada's Pacific Fleet" Wot a Joke! The old Russian sub tied up there for tours could double our "fleet" strength! And to think that at the end of WW2 Canada had the world's third largest navy! Sigh. I heard that in today's throne speech (Dear Americans, Don't even ask...), the Gov. Gen. said something about restoring Canada's military strength, yada,yada- maybe we'll get some new desert camies to dress our soldiers in before sending them somewhere green...

(in reply to strawbuk)
Post #: 21
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 7:28:13 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		On the plus side, I see that the Canadian army has been holding excercises up near Ellsmere Island, to reinforce Canada's claim to their Arctic Islands.

It seems the U.S. doesn't believe that the Northwestern Passage (Coming into being due to the melting Arctic icecap. It seems Columbus was 500 years early.) is Canadian waters, and that even the Chinese are sending ships into northern waters now.

(in reply to ritterkruz)
Post #: 22
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 7:56:19 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Sad any way one looks at it. Our GovGen is a complete waste. Of course she's been reinstated! Spent her whole adult life sucking the CBC's taxpayer fed teet and continues to give us a sore nips in grander style as a professional political lamprey.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 23
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/6/2004 4:14:11 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Hey now!! You might hurt a real lamprey's feelings!!

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 24
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 2:29:43 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 658
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		wait a minute guys, you all sound DISSAPOINTED in canada's defense...yeah i agree with you its a piece of ****. But give me one good argument why canada would need military? It hasnt pissed off the terrorists, or if it has, not enough to be noticed, no problem there. We don't fight wars, we dont get attacked. Basically we just need like a couple of guys with blue berets to be "peacekeepers". Honestly, why the hell would we want fancy new jet-fighters? Just to say we do? Think about it this way guys: if no one had any weapons whatsoever, the world would be quite a better place. Personally, thats why i played wargames. If only the fate of a country was decided on that, and not a real war...

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to esteban)
Post #: 25
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 3:02:22 AM   
GBirkn


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline 		The BBC says one of the officers died today. He'd been airlifted to a hospital in Ireland, but didn't pull through. It may be Friday before they can get a tow line rigged. It sounds like the situation has only gotten worse over the last 24 hours, although at least there are three ships on the scene now.

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 26
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 4:31:46 AM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

wait a minute guys, you all sound DISSAPOINTED in canada's defense...yeah i agree with you its a piece of ****. But give me one good argument why canada would need military? It hasnt pissed off the terrorists, or if it has, not enough to be noticed, no problem there. We don't fight wars, we dont get attacked. Basically we just need like a couple of guys with blue berets to be "peacekeepers". Honestly, why the hell would we want fancy new jet-fighters? Just to say we do? Think about it this way guys: if no one had any weapons whatsoever, the world would be quite a better place. Personally, thats why i played wargames. If only the fate of a country was decided on that, and not a real war...


I hope you are kidding Chamberlain needed an advisor like you in 1938.
It should be noted that an al quada family lives in Canada and Jewish school was bombed in Montreal by an Arab group but of course Canada declared marital law in 1972 due to 2 kidnappings.

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 27
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 4:41:28 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		No offense BossGnome, but its because of people with attitudes like yours that WW2 started. If Britain and France had been like America with Iraq, as soon as Germany reoccupied teh Rhineland they should have moved in and ousted Hitler. No Hitler, no annexing Austria. No Hitler, No swallowing of Czechoslovakia. No Hitler, no invasion of Poland. No Hitler, no massacre of millions of Jews. But, because Britain and France stood by, like what you are advocating, on September 2, the World exploded. And look how many paid the price.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to madmickey)
Post #: 28
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 4:59:27 AM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		Tankerace
Canadian PM Trudeau a multi-millionaire son, draft dodger in WWII who drove around in a Nazi helmet and then visited Communist China in 1950s was against the US arm buildup in 1980. He wanted to emphasize Northern Sovereignty. Lach Walsea and a lot of other people felt that lead to the fall of the Warsaw Pact.

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 29
RE: Ron and fellow Canadians - 10/7/2004 5:07:32 AM   
Belphegor


Posts: 2209
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

No offense BossGnome, but its because of people with attitudes like yours that WW2 started. If Britain and France had been like America with Iraq, as soon as Germany reoccupied teh Rhineland they should have moved in and ousted Hitler. No Hitler, no annexing Austria. No Hitler, No swallowing of Czechoslovakia. No Hitler, no invasion of Poland. No Hitler, no massacre of millions of Jews. But, because Britain and France stood by, like what you are advocating, on September 2, the World exploded. And look how many paid the price.



I think that simplifies things just a tad too much don't you?

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 30
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