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Dragon teeth and mines - 9/10/2004 8:17:23 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		To all you mine users out there, do you use wire and dragon teeth in a defense. I always just used mines never messed with the others. But i decided to use some of the teeth in a battle. I put the teeth along about a 8 hex length. I then set up 2 sec HMG to cover this. I then placed mines either side of them about 5 hex length 10 total. I found the tanks that came upon the teeth moved either right or left into the mine field. Any infantry that climbed over the teeth were mowed down by the MG.

Did this at 2 different locations and worked out fine for me. Am now going to mix wire behind the mine fields to channel infantry to location i want. Its amazing how much i seem to learn from this game in each different battle. If you play the same battle over and over several times it never turns out the same. I find myself saying in each battle i fight i need to this or change that for the next one i fight.

Love this game more then any of the others i keep going out to buy. They just sit there on my computor taking up space. Where with this one i am in doing a few turns every day. Matrix thank you for all the hours of enjoyment.

Add to that the friends i have met here all great people on this board. Not like some of the others i have been on. Wow life is great today.

_____________________________

Robots wear armor for skin.Grunts wear skin for armor.
Post #: 1
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 9/10/2004 8:36:58 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Hey,ROBOT I'm havin a GREAT day too.
I play alot of vs/AI and have nothing but compliment to This games interpritations of all the obsticals and it sounds like u're gettin the hang of them,also remember that the game gives the wired hexes the assumption that they are mined too,and now that your experimenting with funneling, to remember to mark the lee of the funnel with priority arrty and sometimes leave an intensional gaps for counter attack, nothing Ruins an assault for the enemy worse than a counter attack when U catch their Engineers behind their smoke busy clearing. can U say TURKEY SHOOT. RT

(in reply to robot)
Post #: 2
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 9/16/2004 7:22:36 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Unfortunately can´t quite share your enthusiasm with the obstacles in the game. The mentioned Obstacles are the ONLY real obstacles in the game as those terrain types that should be functioning as natural obstacles, like woods, stone buildings, swamps ect. aren´t! Historically, roadblocks, dragon teeth, ect. were built in those places where tank/vehicle movement was easily possible. In the game you can only slow down an opponent, more easily an AI player. A human player would take the risk to slowly move through a swamp, woods or a stone building to avoid an AT obstacle, but how many tanks will immobilze while doing so? So in the game you need lots of them to achieve a channelizing effect, that normally the terrain in reality created alone. However, from gaming point of view it´s a valid tactic. Mine fields are different in this regard. Just knowing mine fields exist slows down a (human) opponent alone and the danger to "hit" a mine IMO is bigger than getting "stuck" in a swamp or something.

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(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 3
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 9/16/2004 9:55:43 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, Rockin you're sorta talkin sideways to me here, ya say u are'nt impressed and reitterate on that "a wall is a wall", A tree is a tree and so on.the point of obstacles as u probably never attended battle school(real military doctrine)is to suppliment the already available natural or man made stuff, or of horrably odvious avenues of advance and to limit,restrict,or create added threat of a predictable channel of places where the enemy has any hope of a gun getting a good shot at u while u get the advantage of him being under your sights with a fair chance of a timed retreat. No obstacle is used to STOP,they just keep em under your guns from the avenues you can ussually predict,until u see the breech and decide to start withdrawing,or start up and press a counter attack. Quite thinkin as stop, and think of turn them into,or deny them unharrassed fire from,and best of ALL u get to say when the proper line is estimated,just what forces u want to pull back, how far,and with what entrenched I might add, assets are providing what cover fire to the said forces pulling back. It's a lot more of an art and a knack to be a workable Mine Magician. RT

< Message edited by Riun T -- 9/16/2004 7:57:36 PM >

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 4
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 9/29/2004 4:07:42 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

Hey, Rockin you're sorta talkin sideways to me here, ya say u are'nt impressed and reitterate on that "a wall is a wall", A tree is a tree and so on.the point of obstacles as u probably never attended battle school(real military doctrine)is to suppliment the already available natural or man made stuff, or of horrably odvious avenues of advance and to limit,restrict,or create added threat of a predictable channel of places where the enemy has any hope of a gun getting a good shot at u while u get the advantage of him being under your sights with a fair chance of a timed retreat. No obstacle is used to STOP,they just keep em under your guns from the avenues you can ussually predict,until u see the breech and decide to start withdrawing,or start up and press a counter attack. Quite thinkin as stop, and think of turn them into,or deny them unharrassed fire from,and best of ALL u get to say when the proper line is estimated,just what forces u want to pull back, how far,and with what entrenched I might add, assets are providing what cover fire to the said forces pulling back. It's a lot more of an art and a knack to be a workable Mine Magician. RT


All depends upon if you refer to real world or just the SPWAW game. Using obstacles in H2H/PBEM games also is different (obviously more fun) from playing vs. the AI which does not really know about obstacles. Say you place some nice dragon teeth rows on a land bridge between some swamp and some thick forests. The AI won´t bother with it sending engineers to the teeth to clear them, it rather heads straight through the swamps or forests without considerable loss of time. ..and no, I never attended battle school. What would I be teached there under these circumstances? "Nah...move straight through the swamps, our tanks are all amphibs and have 4 ft wide tracks that keep them all afloat. The forests is no problem either, we have the tanks all equipped with dozer blades and the guns and tracks are all invulnerable while we break through that nice pine forest at 20 mph speed."

At last I just meant to say that the "doctrines" not really work or work ok in the GAME due to the way too easy terrain. It surely is just meant to help the AI to navigate on the map and find the victory hexes more rapidly, although it´s even to dumb to find/use roads properly. Make some test map with all sorts of terrain and watch where the AI goes and you´ll notice that "path finding" is rather "path avoiding".

Dragon Teeth and even more so "mines" are the real obstacles in the SPWAW game, while swamps/marshes, shallow water, mud, forests ect. aren´t, at least not for vehicles. That´s the tradeoff for having a more playable game and in this regard then it´s ok.

Robot, you´re playing mostly the AIP or H2H?

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(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 5
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 9/29/2004 8:04:59 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		All AI play Long campaign. And your right on the way the AI moves thru terrain. If you lay a mine field or teeth to channel the AI the way you want him to go, forget it he will take tanks across gulleys or thru forest with the same speed as on roads. What they do help with is a weakness in your lines. A help in holding the AI away from weak points till reserve can move up to help. I really have never used the teeth or wire much in my battles. Am still experimenting along these lines. I like what i see so far. I have always been the player who makes a line of mines from border to border. I did not like this so have been more selective on placemant and such. Got away from the straight line in last two battles and used teeth, wire and mines in a more controlled obstacle type lay out. Like laying more stuff back from the blue line in different set ups to confuse the enemy. Worked out well for me and will continue to do this in future battles.

_____________________________

Robots wear armor for skin.Grunts wear skin for armor.

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 6
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 10/1/2004 1:14:35 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Its great to hear from ya guys,Rockin,I was wondering if u had played alot of desert in your long campaigns the time it takes to negotiate in the campaign I'm just in 9/43 and had to put up with another of the failings of SPWAW in every version so far, the units that I tried to follow my Scorpion mine flails with in the anphib. landing at SARICUSE, all can't seem to follow the path the flail clears???? the hex is only scaled to 50m, and thats not wide enough to make it difficult for following vehicles to see the path but nonetheless the hex still indicates the hex isn't clear. Now I can understand that but I also had sappers in the boats right after the flails and layed efficient smoke to keep them covered and left them on mined hexes for at least two turns. SO WHY DID I STILL GET 30% AFV losses from supposedly clear areas???? what I meant about the desert is that the rocky outcroppings and sink holes actually do their jobs,I fought the Italians for the majority of the north African parts and they really got SMACKED with me putting alot less combustable clutter in the ruff and depressed Topo and they took much longer to get to where I had to redeploy.RT

(in reply to robot)
Post #: 7
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 10/6/2004 7:49:45 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I'm with Harry on this topic.

If you read any of the accounts of armoured commanders in WW2 the one recurring theme is that roads in 1940 were not as we see now. Guderian mentions that 'good' roads marked on his map were nothing but trails.

In France and Belgium in 1944, a typical road was flanked on either side by either a wall or a ditch and tanks found it very difficult to move off a road.

Peiper's force found moving through small villages in the Ardennes difficult because the large tanks could not move easily through the narrow streets, between houses and their walls. And where was it that a walled town could not be captured because a single old French tank had broken down in the main gate, barring traffic?

Even small downpours of rain would make an armoured advance impossible ; retricting the tracked vehicles to paved sections of road- such as they might be, after the first few tanks had passed. For moving off the road would mean almost immediate immobilisation.

In Italy, Canadian tank squadrons crossing a river would attack with 3 tanks. Those few tanks that were not stuck in the river or on the mud banks made impassible by the first tanks to pass.

SPWAW terrain does not impede tracked vehicles properly and wheeled vehicles should be impeded further.

All IMHO of course

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 8
RE: Dragon teeth and mines - 10/8/2004 9:02:49 PM   
mckenzie

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 10/8/2004
Status: offline 		Personally I find mines to be of use in slowing down both computer and human opponents, exacting a sort of "tax" on everything passing through, especially if you plug a road in a forest or at a bridgehead. Dragon's teeth is of less use unless you specifically want to set up an ambush of enemy vehicles. Barbed wire is almost completely useless in SPWAW. In general, don't expect any of the above to stop the opponent, only to slow them down.

Now I do have a question: If you have a bunch of mines, do you prefer to pile them up five to a hex in a long line, or one to a hex five hexes wide in the same long line? Which on is more effective in a) slowing the enemy, and b) causing casualties?

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Lieutenant General Timothy McKenzie

(in reply to Major Destruction)
Post #: 9
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