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My God! - 10/13/2004 1:33:37 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		I was checking the 44 and 45 campaigns last night - in depth. I have looked at them before but not in depth.

All I can say is my God the Japs are totally outclassed and outnumbered in everything. I knew they would be of course and we all know they lost the war as soon as they started it but the disparity is immense.

I am beginning to regret the decision I have recently made - I have agreed to play HARD_sarge in a 42B Campaign (once the latest patch is released) with me playing as Jap.

I have always enjoyed a challenge but I can see i'm going to get whacked from turn 1.

I am thinking the best and only way is to take as much of him down with me as I can. I guess training pilots is going to be key, as is ASW, defence in depth.

Have others found that getting George's and Frank's out in numbers with experienced pilots makes a difference at all?

Any other suggestions other than pray?

Regards,

Steven
Post #: 1
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 2:02:46 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Sue for peace?

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 2
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 2:05:52 PM   
Grunty


Posts: 42
Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
Status: offline 		If you want a little glimer of hope, go and read a theme named: ''Doh! What not to do..'' in this same forum.

regards and long live the emperor

_____________________________



" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

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Post #: 3
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 3:26:22 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Sue for peace is not an option

Ah cheers Grunty. Just seen it. There is hope. Provided Sarge gets over-confident. Not likely!

(in reply to Grunty)
Post #: 4
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 3:54:24 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I agree the 44/45 preponderance is scary. It is made worse in the stock scenarios though:-

1) The majority of Japanese bases are at the same size as they were in 1941.
2) No land-based airgroups have any good pilots, they're all at c.40 experience. In reality there would still be at least a few good pilots around ...
3) There is no oil/resource whatever in the Home Islands. This also applies to the 42 Campaign scenarios.

Maybe some of these points will have been addressed in 1.30?

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 5
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 4:34:30 PM   
Taiyo


Posts: 17
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		maybe there should be an option at the beggining: "Start war" - "Don't start war" - "Wait a few years"

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All warfare is based on deception!

The Art of War

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Post #: 6
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 5:12:23 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Simple: Start game using the Dec'41 start, Computer vs Computer, with all reports etc turned off, and the computer set NOT to divert into screen save, Seti-search, or powersave modes. Run until 1944 and see how it's developed!

(Actually, I'm doing something like this, aiming for an alternative May'42 start.)

Steve.

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Post #: 7
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 6:33:07 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Captain Cruft -

Thats a good point concerning oil/resources. Even when I start the 42B campaign I will have no stockpiles in Japan.

So any serious thoughts as to long term development as in stalling Sarge?

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 8
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 8:32:41 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		Silly question but has anyone tried to create a scenario where Japan only attacks the SRA. I remember some thread about this from before and I recall hearing that this is impossible because the routines are hard coded to begin hostilities on turn 1. Is this true or is it possible to "isolate" the US just as the USSR is? If it is, has anyone tried?

< Message edited by Onime No Kyo -- 10/13/2004 6:33:35 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 9:12:17 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.

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Post #: 10
RE: My God! - 10/13/2004 9:12:22 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		LOL Steve

don't forget, we still got the Canal to fight, and you can train/gain alot in China

which, if you don't burn yourself out in Canal, you will still have a lot of force left over, and should be able to bring in oil and resourses to the home islands

besides, the main battle is going to be in 42/43,if the game goes to 45, yeapper, it gonna be ruff

which this does not show the other 7 BG's in the area, or the other 4 waiting to come on map or the A Bomb Squadron

HARD_Sarge




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 12:52:34 AM   
Hipper

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 6/15/2004
Status: offline 		I've allways been interested by that

quote:

Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.


when does the community think the americans would have joined world war two officially (rather than the USN & Coastguard helping out against the "rattlesnakes" of the atlantic ) if Japan had not attacked at PH (im assuming they sit & do nothing rather than attack the SRA)

I played an old WWII board game which had them joining in mid 42 ...


any other takers ?

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Post #: 12
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 12:54:15 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.


Sorry TT, I wasnt looking for a debate on the issue and agree with you completely. My question was just fun and speculative about what would have happened if only the Brits and Dutch were involved but most of the IJN forces had to be comitted to watching teh US and did not participate.

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

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Post #: 13
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 1:03:48 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		No telling when the US would have acted with out a Japanese Attack. Roosevelt wanted us in but didnt feel he had the needed votes to do it, so he skirted the issue by doing other things to help.

Most War games have the US join in December 41 or January 42 even if the Japanese dont attack. Just an artifice, just like if the Germans dont attack the Soviet Union in 41, most games have her able to do so on her own shortly there after.

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 14
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 1:08:17 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No telling when the US would have acted with out a Japanese Attack. Roosevelt wanted us in but didnt feel he had the needed votes to do it, so he skirted the issue by doing other things to help.

Most War games have the US join in December 41 or January 42 even if the Japanese dont attack. Just an artifice, just like if the Germans dont attack the Soviet Union in 41, most games have her able to do so on her own shortly there after.


I think you were closer the first time (or maybe I read it that way). I think that any PTO sim needs PH not because the US was so hot to join in the war but because the Japanese themselves would have never allowed for the idea that the US would stay out.

As for the Soviet Union, a lot of stuff has been coming out lately arguing that if Hitler didnt, Stalin would have by the summer of 43 or so.

And all that after I said I wasnt looking for a debate.

< Message edited by Onime No Kyo -- 10/13/2004 11:08:43 PM >

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

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Post #: 15
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 1:09:06 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		re the PTO: If the Japanese do _not_ attack to secure oil from the SRA, won't they collapse anyhow due to lack of raw materials? So the Japanese either attack, get lots of people killed, and have their economy collapse or don't attack and have their economy collapse. If they attack the SRA and the PI I suspect the US would enter the war even without an attack on Hawaii.

re the ETO: Assuming the British hold out, and the Germans still attack the USSR, I surmise the USSR wins anyhow (likely with US Lend Lease aid even if the US is not a combatant. Then maybe the Iron Curtain is at the Channel, not in the middle of Germany in 1946?

Just my 0.02

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

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Post #: 16
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 1:17:03 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Oh I agree, eventually Stalin would have attacked the Germans. I am just saying that most games give you that option as soon or shortly after the German invasion if not conducted.

As for the US Roosevelt was working to acquire the needed votes to join the European war, he wanted in as soon as it started. But with no Japanese attack, there is no ( at least none I have seen) significant evidence he would have gotten that vote in January 42.

With no Japanese attack, it is concievable he never got the vote needed to involve US forces and simply kept supplying the British and then the Soviets with material as he could. Barring a major event in Russia or the Atlantic. The fall of Europe wasnt enough for the isolationists to act though.

Of course we had cut off Japan, they were stuck with no way to adequetly fuel their war machine, they had to **** or get off the pot ( in China). Had they done what Hitler wanted and attacked the Soviet Union, again there is no telling if this would have been enough to draw in the reluctant US electorate. But they couldnt have maintained their economy once the Dutch and British cut them off from resources.

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 17
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 1:37:45 AM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taiyo

maybe there should be an option at the beggining: "Start war" - "Don't start war" - "Wait a few years"


"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

--W.O.P.R., War Games

< Message edited by SpitfireIX -- 10/13/2004 6:38:00 PM >

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Taiyo)
Post #: 18
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 2:40:27 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Not attacking the US also means leaving the PI's alone which would be a real problem for Japanese communications to the DEI's. Since the goal is to get the SRA, the only sure way is to have the PI, this means an attack on the US. You can not logically consider a Japanese expansion in the SRA without secure line to the area. Also consider why the Japanese were thinking of this expansion, to have actual possession of their resource sources. Their action in China was opposed by the Americans and the Americans stopped trading with the Japanese. Japan came to the conclusion that its prosperity required control over the supply source of their resources. Ignoring the US while going to the SAR would be allowing the US to go to war against the Japan at the time of their choosing with American planes in PI able to cut off any and all gains they achieved in the SRA. Taking the SRA means going to war with the US, all that remains is who decides to start it, and I would think that anyone thinking right would want to be the one making that decision rather than leaving it to another party.

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Truth is truth

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Post #: 19
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 5:06:24 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		LOL Sarge.

I know I can still have a BIT of fun and I only mean a bit though. Without 4 of the biggies you and I know I have lost the initiative and flexibility for offensive operations. I am looking forward to it though. Have never started a 42 campaign so all new to me.

I aim to drag it out to 45 though. All being well

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 20
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 5:43:08 PM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No telling when the US would have acted with out a Japanese Attack. Roosevelt wanted us in but didnt feel he had the needed votes to do it, so he skirted the issue by doing other things to help.


I suspect that a Japanese attack on GB and the NEI would have put the number of votes in Congress for the war over the top--if not it would have moved things a lot closer. Even with no Japanese attack at all the US would have declared war on Germany within six months.


quote:


Most War games have the US join in December 41 or January 42 even if the Japanese dont attack. Just an artifice, just like if the Germans dont attack the Soviet Union in 41, most games have her able to do so on her own shortly there after.


World in Flames has a US entry track--every time Axis or Allied players take certain actions, US entry can be moved up or moved back. In early editions this resulted in highly ahistorical games, as the Allies would avoid nearly every action that had the potential to reduce US entry (lend lease, neutrality patrols, Japanese oil embargo, etc.), and the US generally entered the war early in 1941. In later versions of the game this was corrected somewhat, by making US entry a dice roll which becomes more likely as the US picks more entry options (which tend to reduce the US-entry index) in addition to being tied to the entry index. As a friend of mine put it, "We don't just have to get mad at the Axis; we also have to get ready." The US player can try to roll as soon as he has a chance greater than zero, but if he doens't make it, US entry is reduced, and other bad effects happen (simulates FDR asking for a DoW but not getting it).

BTW, in the early editions of WiF if Japan declared war on the Netherlands or GB, the US was allowed to declare war immediately. In the revised US-entry system, war isn't automatic, but the chances go way up.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 21
RE: My God! - 10/14/2004 6:23:43 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		So back to one of the original points in this topic -

Have any others tried getting decent numbers of George's and Frank's online with good pilots and the affects this has?

Regards,

Steven

(in reply to SpitfireIX)
Post #: 22
RE: My God! - 10/15/2004 6:10:32 AM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		I am playing a late war scenario as the allies in a what-if scenario of a total advance in central Pacific to Japan and it is difficult to keep track of all my units and all my invasion plans. It is very easy too win but confusing and you want to make as many right decisions as possible.

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 23
RE: My God! - 10/15/2004 6:23:15 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Japan is far from toothless in 44 and 45, very limited yes, but if your opponnent gets "I an invincible" disease you might be able to land a bloody nose or two. There are example here of an Allied player running a surface group too close to Japen thinking that 27k aa was enough only to find 5 BB out for the rest of the war. The Allied player still needs audacity to win in 45 and careful planning for success. To win in 45 requires much Allied loss and hardship.

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Post #: 24
RE: My God! - 10/15/2004 3:39:29 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Maybe there is hope

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Post #: 25
RE: My God! - 10/15/2004 9:37:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Greesh
why is everybody talking about 45, it is a 42 campaign, that if lucky will get to 45, someday down the road

and as a human vs human war, it will be very much more bloody then the real war was, so everything is still up in the air

HARD_Sarge

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