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- 2/3/2002 10:53:00 PM   
Bulldog61


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/23/2000
From: Aurora,CO
Status: offline 		Hi stretch! I've run reinforcement convoys into Port Morsby as allied vs. AI and the AI does send attacks after my ships unloading in port. Of course they have to get through the CAP first. Mike

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Post #: 31
- 2/4/2002 1:37:00 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline 		Here is the approximate price breakdown for us Canadians to purchase this great game: 1) Game itself - $50.00 US (converted to Candian dollars with duties, etc works out to be about $100.00) 2) Print pdf manual - $49.00 for cartridge, $4.00 for paper, $5.00 for binder. 3) Total cost of game - $160.00 Canadian including taxes. Ouch! Mail order from the US is expensive enough, but you can really see the problem with a pdf only manual. I would gladly pay an extra $5.00 for the game to get a printed manual included. Thanks

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Post #: 32
- 2/4/2002 1:55:00 AM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		I don't understand the big negative with the pdf game manual. Does your printed manual have a search engine? I think not. I would assume the game and the pdf manual could be available in separate windows at the same time, is that not true, beta testers. I personally think printed manuals are a relic of the past. Paul

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Post #: 33
- 2/4/2002 2:47:00 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		Hmmmm, can you hold your pdf manual in your hand and read it while laying on the couch? I think not. We won't even go into the eye strain issue of reading large quantities of text on a CRT... As far as searching goes, thats why they invented the index. Running multiple apps in a windows environment(particularly when it involves games) is asking for a crash. Despite the best efforts of programmers Windows just isn't that reliable. I'd much rather be able to hold the manual in my hands then risk a crash. Given whats already been said about costs etc, I don't see why gamers shouldn't expect to get a printed manual when paying full market price for a game. Is that enough reasons to want a printed manual.

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Post #: 34
- 2/4/2002 3:09:00 AM   
Bulldog61


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/23/2000
From: Aurora,CO
Status: offline 		Raster,
Let me reiterate how stable the system is. I'm running Windows XP Pro with SQL Server 2000 running in the backgroud. I've tabbed out of the program numerous times (as I'm doing at the moment) and have yet to see it crash. I wanted to add abit about historical accuracy, one of my pet peeves. I'm playing the Gaudacanal scenario. Just received the CVE Long Island and shades of PacWar it has no airgroup. But the Long Island was used as an aircraft ferry. So I was able to transfer VMF223 to her sail her to about 10 hexes (300 Miles) of Guadalcanal and transfer VMF223 to Guadalcanal! Cactus Air Force is Born! Mike

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Post #: 35
- 2/4/2002 3:16:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The manual issue is a major financial issue for publishers of niche products with small sales potential. As a user, I love to read manuals off-line. When I bought an HPS game I found that it wasn't that much to ask to have me print the manual (doesn't everyone have access to a printer at home or work or at an office supply store?). As long as the manual was done professionally (and UV is about as good as they get IMHO) then I'm ok with printing it. The manual is the one item where the price is very dependent on the quantity purchased, and once it's in the game, you have to keep providing it. You can't reorder 500 (or 100) manuals without the price being outrageous (500 CD's isn't so bad, even 100). Also, if the CD is going to be in a case of some kind, the manual won't fit in the case unless made much smaller than anyone wants it to be, another problem. My opinion is that it is more important to spend some extra time and money to make sure the manual is good and then save the very high cost of printing manuals in small quantities by allowing customers that want a printed manual (yes most of you, including me) to print them out themselves. This make soooo much more economic sense for all concerned. I don't know for sure, but if you really want to buy a manual for $5-10, David might be able to arrange to print one out for you, although even there probably the cost of shipping and handling would make it cost prohibitive. If everyone that wanted a manual would invest just a little time in personnally printing the manual out it would make the publisher's survival much more likely and would keep the per unit cost of the game down. It even makes the Green Party people happy. My understanding is that in Germany they use small packages and on-disk manuals only (even for retail games) because they've determined that this saves a tremendous number of trees every year. I'm certainly not a tree-hugger, but they have a point. Obviously if you disagree you can take your business elsewhere and if enough people feel that way we're in trouble. But by putting up with this inconvenience you really are increasing the chance of a continuing product flow of products that might otherwise never see the light of day. I'm a gamer that has always loved to read manuals, but as someone that has also dealt with the business side of wargames for 20 years, I guess I'm pleading for some understanding here. Joel

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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Post #: 36
- 2/4/2002 4:04:00 AM   
Dunedain

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 4/4/2000
Status: offline 		Joel: I do understand that small companies like Matrix have to operate in pretty strict
financial confines. And I very much appreciate the efforts of you fellows to
keep bringing us great wargames. But I want to make it clear that I'm not asking Matrix to put itself at some
sort of financial risk by including a manual with UV. I'm very willing to pay whatever
extra it costs to cover your expenses of having a professionally printed manual
made available to us to buy with UV. Whether that means charging $60-70 for UV
so that every disk goes out with a manual or just allowing us the option of
paying extra to get such a manual. I think it's safe to say that the sort of people that are going to want to
buy UV (and WitP for that matter) are mostly the same sort of people that
definitely want a professionally printed manual to come with the game, and are
willing to pay any reasonable amount to get one. Certainly there is enough
demand to at least allow Matrix to order the manuals in enough quantity
to keep the cost per manual fairly low. And I'd be happy to pay whatever that
price is, plus shipping (and since the vast majority of people who order
the manual will order it at the same as they order the game itself, they can be
shipped together, thus keeping shipping costs to a minimum for the customer). So feel free to charge us whatever it takes for us to at least have the option
of ordering a nice manual to go with UV. It doesn't have to be super fancy,
just black and white, with a nice front and back cover and a good binding
that will stand up to plenty of use while one relaxes on the couch poring over
all the wonderful details of naval warfare. [ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Dunedain ]



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Post #: 37
- 2/4/2002 4:11:00 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'll second that! What is the price for UC going to be anyway(as it stands now without a printed manual)?

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Post #: 38
- 2/4/2002 4:44:00 AM   
Lex Morton

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 6/24/2000
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I can easily live without a printed manual as I am sure the gameplay will keep me at the screen for eons anyway!If I need history I can get FANTASTIC stuff for free at Nihon Kaigun www.combinedfleet.com Failing that I have plenty of books already (but I can ALWAYS use more!) I say go with the DVD case size (small no big manual) and and try and sell it in bulk on a sale or return basis via petrol (gas) stations and suchlike with one or two POS (point of sale) posters,for display in the gas station or whathaveyou to tweak interest.Make the price cheaper to allow the chance of 'impulse' purchases. I would also rather cheekily like to suggest that you perhaps send a 'review' copy or two to the guy who runs Nihon Kaigun as he is a hero!He will also,I'm sure,review it and post a link on where to purchase it too. Yours Lex Morton PS If you are ever looking for someone to post stuff from within Europe to cut down (perhaps) on postage etc then give me a shout.Maybe use paypal and I'll burn and send the CDs!

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Post #: 39
- 2/4/2002 6:36:00 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Joel A pdf file works for me. Especially if you can post it on your website and update it as changes are made to the game after release. Even if you can't do that I would rather print it myself and keep the cost of the game down. elmo3

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Post #: 40
- 2/4/2002 8:35:00 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Guys We are looking into a few items to see what we can offer. We have not set a price yet on whatwe are going to charge or if there will or will not be a printed manual. I will let everyone know once we are ready to roll.

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Post #: 41
- 2/4/2002 11:00:00 AM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Say, Beta Testers: Has the same scenario been enabled for everyone, or do you have one of several different scenarios? On the subject of pdf vs. printed manual, I can think of several advantages that stone tablets have over printed paper. However, they do seem to have gone out of vogue. The same with paper vs. pdf. You may have an index, but it can't compare with a keyword search. True, you can't crash on the couch with a crt but game rules are best used in conjunction with the game, anyway. However, to each his own. I think Matrix should offer a printed game manual at extra cost, which I don't think anyone would object to. Paul

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Post #: 42
- 2/4/2002 12:09:00 PM   
mario vallee

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Montreal
Status: offline 		Any comments about the A.I. ? Is the computer a good player ? mv [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: napoleon1emperer ]



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Post #: 43
- 2/4/2002 1:50:00 PM   
Warpup

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Roseburg, Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		Does anyone here remember the rulebook for Advanced Squad Leader? That was just a notebook with a cover pasted on it. It had notebook sized paper, color printed, and occasional rule updates and additions could easily be inserted. It was purchased separately from the boxes of maps and counters that made up ASL. Maybe that would be a reasonable model for a computer game manual, low cost, purchased separately, and easy to update...

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Post #: 44
- 2/4/2002 1:52:00 PM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		If there's not going to be a printed manual, will there be a secure download purchase available? Why bother with shipping&handling charges. CDRs and jewel cases are cheap.

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" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

Clan [GOAT]

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Post #: 45
- 2/4/2002 4:36:00 PM   
Crocky


Posts: 417
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Status: offline 		Hey Paul..Scenarios at the moment we have 17 to play with and WOW is about all I can say so far , just starting to delve into the inner depths but it looks great

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Post #: 46
- 2/4/2002 8:14:00 PM   
Elvis1965

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 2/2/2001
Status: offline 		Scenarios!!! See any hypothetical scenarios in the list of 17?

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Post #: 47
- 2/4/2002 8:33:00 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		Well,
the pdf-discussion, one thing, could it be possible to split it, because every pdf-file with more then x MB to print is not printable..... so please, make 2 versions, one large (to look in and search) and one to print out. Even with 18 MB Memory for my HP LJ1500 (the pre modell of the 2100) i cannot print one single page of a matrix manual (if a pdf-file) It is a funbreak, if you don´t know what to do and i even can´t look every page, because my computer drop out after 5 or 6 pages (with 512 MB and a 450er P2....) How long and we can buy it and if you make it sellable, can you contact me (well i´m in germany, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease)

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Post #: 48
- 2/4/2002 8:37:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by ratster:
If there's not going to be a printed manual, will there be a secure download purchase available? Why bother with shipping&handling charges. CDRs and jewel cases are cheap.
This has been asked about before. Small companies have problems with banks and charge backs. People make the download then claim that they did not get it all and ask for a charge back. There are sophtisticated e-commerce applications to work around this (Akami has one) but its a lot for a small company.

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Post #: 49
- 2/4/2002 8:43:00 PM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Ratster, you raise a good point. We don't have any idea how big the download might be, but let's think in terms of, say, 500 mb. Now that is just too big for 56k modems on conventional landlines. However, for those of us with high speed connections, a 500 mb download is not that big a deal. It is around three hours on my satellite system; only about two hours on the cable modem at work. Distribution protection might be a problem for Matrix, however. Matrix, what about the possibility of allowing high speed downloads only. Is that practical? Paul

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Post #: 50
- 2/4/2002 11:50:00 PM   
Dunedain

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 4/4/2000
Status: offline 		I think I sense a bit of sarcasm in ratster's post...
David: Thanks for checking into the situation and seeing what kind of options you
can give us on this manual issue.

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Post #: 51
- 2/5/2002 1:52:00 AM   
DougAngle

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/4/2000
From: Arvada, Co USA
Status: offline 		PDF works for me. It would be a good idea to make a printed manual available from the Matrix store as an option to those who want one. It could be in a 3 ring binder for easy updating. That would also allow for hints/tactics/updates to be easily added. We also want to make sure that this is not a money losing proposition for Matrix.

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Post #: 52
- 2/5/2002 2:21:00 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		A bit of sarcasm, but at the same time I was serious about the download. It seems a waste of my money to spend what will probably amount 6-8 dollars for S&H for just a CD. I have a high speed internet connection, aren't dial-ups a thing of the past and out of "vogue" too, along with paper manuals. Of course all this discusion of with or without manual is moot without knowing the actual price(s). In all seriouness though "I yearn tragically" for this game and will prolly get it regardless of circumstance.

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" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

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Post #: 53
- 2/5/2002 4:54:00 AM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Ratster, I agree. Actually, dial-ups go with the stone tablets. Paul

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Post #: 54
- 2/5/2002 5:40:00 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		To whomever was asking about the hypothetical scenarios:
I'm not a beta-tester or anything, but I read (either on the UV site or in the forums) that there was at least one hypothetical scenario. Something along the lines of "What if both sides had all their carriers in theater at the time?" (As you know, most of the Japanese Air Arm was around the Indian Ocean area at the time. Only Shokaku and Zuikaku saw extensive action...
I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure thats what I heard...

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Post #: 55
- 2/5/2002 5:46:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Current stats say there are only 11 million broadband customers. Hard to believe but there are still a lot of dial-up people out there. Joel

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Post #: 56
- 2/5/2002 8:49:00 AM   
Caltone


Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline 		Saw someone asking around in a newsgroup the other day about locations of print shops so he could run off some pdf manuals. The best reply was: "print shops? that's what working in offices are for " One thing I do hate about pdf is the slow speed I get get on my humble home printer, but hey, we do have some nice laser printers at work I too like to have a nice printed manual but have resigned myself to this pdf thing. Its here to stay and we should all just get used to it. The game is sounding great. It sounds like you guys have nailed the pace/flow. I wanted this one for Christmas and want it even more now. My birthday is March 1st, David, Joel, Gary, can you guess what I want? Testers, more info please! Someone asked about the AI earlier, any answers?

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Post #: 57
- 2/5/2002 9:44:00 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by rough44: I read several surface battle descriptions and the results seem to be quite realistic... how are they really? this was one of the more serious failings of PacWar. simply give me more...[/QB]
So far I think the models are very accurate. The thing I like are the many different phases. You start with a night phase (Japs have better night tactics) that includes air, naval, bombardment and submarine action. Then you do it all again for the day phase but the ships have keep moving and the night results have been applied. There might be several sorties from a carrier against the same or different targets. I have seen a ship get crippled at night and have to split off form the TF and then get pounded in the day phase. The ships take damage in three areas: systems, flooding, and fire. Also,gun/torpedo mounts can be knocked out.
Hope this helps. Rick

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Post #: 58
- 2/5/2002 10:04:00 AM   
rough44

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/2/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Thanks man, Matrix should start paying you for giving us all the steam... How is crew experience portrayed? (air & naval & troop) is it static or does it increase/decrease depending on performance/losses. Are flying fortresses as invulnerable as they were in PacWar... really pissed me off back then.

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Post #: 59
- 2/5/2002 10:46:00 AM   
Bulldog61


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/23/2000
From: Aurora,CO
Status: offline 		Hi Rough44! B-17's can be tough at altitude, but they aren't very accurate! Although I have gotten one hit on a docked Destoyer in Rabaul from 25,000 ft. Naval crew experience is rated for day and night capabilities. I haven't been paying attention to it but will! Mike

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Post #: 60
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