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SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/18/2004 9:39:34 PM   
humunuku

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/31/2002
Status: offline 		I've read a recent thread (possibly at Run5 forum), in which I learned that the BiN Manual is accompanied by a "Table of Contents." This document can be viewed by clicking the "Bookmark" function in Adobe Acrobat Reader (at least in my 6.0 version). The document is useful, but only when one has the computer turned on. However, there is no way to PRINT this list, so that users can refer to the ToC when reading the printed manual. Many users would find this very handy.

I have tried to "copy and paste" the ToC list from Bookmarks into Microsoft Word, as well as using a Scansoft PDF Converter program. Neither will allow copying from the original Adobe document; it appears that one has to have the full version of Adobe 6.0 Acrobat to do so.

I am requesting that SSG provide a converted copy of the Table of Contents (convert it to a Word.doc), and make it available as a free download to all registered owners of Battles in Normandy.. I think that all BiN owners should be entitled to print out their own Table of Contents, to use in conjunction with the BiN Manual (which we have had already had to print at our own expense).

I would appreciate a response from an SSG staff member in regard to this request.

Thanks,
Bob Cohen
Post #: 1
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/19/2004 1:13:11 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		You do not need the professional, full version, the free 6.0 works fine

(in reply to humunuku)
Post #: 2
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/19/2004 8:46:18 PM   
humunuku

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/31/2002
Status: offline
quote:

You do not need the professional, full version, the free 6.0 works fine


Freeboy,

I would sincerely appreciate it if you would describe how YOU print the BiN Table of Contents. Again, when I view the Game Manual (via the Adobe "Bookmarks" feature, it appears on the left side of the Manual), all I can do is highlight the long string of Table of Contents.

However, when the TOC is highlighted in blue, my preview of what will be printed shows only the Manual itself. I cannot figure out how to print just the TOC...

When you print the Table of Contents, how many pages does it require?

I really look forward to being "clued in" on correct use of the Adobe 6.0 print function.

Thanks again for trying to set me straight!
Bob Cohen

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 3
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/19/2004 11:59:34 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ok, my bad I remembered incorrectly the manual.. confused obviously and as I just spent some time in it I couldn't print the contents either.. big oops and sorry from me

(in reply to humunuku)
Post #: 4
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 2:53:16 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Open the table of Contents

Hit the "Print Screen" button

Open a new Word document and hit "paste"

Print the page ( or pages )

_____________________________


(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 5
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 6:21:35 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		good save joe, I use a free utility for my editing of screen shots.. called irfanview

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 6
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 11:13:16 AM   
humunuku

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/31/2002
Status: offline 		I would like to know why SSG refuses to comment on my request for it to provide BiN owners a way to download a simple formatted copy of the BiN Table of Contents, which gamers could then PRINT and use in conjunction with their printed copy of the manual?

The game manual does offer a Table of Contents, but it can be viewed only on computer. It cannot be copied and printed using the standard (free) version of Adobe Acrobat Reader 6.0 (except after a long copy and paste process, using 3 software programs): Even then, my kludge of a “copy-and-paste” does NOT have page numbers…I will have to look everything up, and hand write them alongside my TOC entries, for future easy reference to specific game features. (Unfortunately, copying from IrfanView into Word uses a format which does not allow later typing of new text, i.e., page numbers.)

I posted a request for such a Table of Contents on October 18 (see first entry in this thread), but the only responses have been from other gamers: Freeboy and Joe98. Fortunately, for me, I was able to use a combination of their suggestions, involving “Print Screen” and the software program “IrfanView,” and have “copied and pasted” the TOC into Microsoft Word. Of course, it took me a couple hours of trial-and-error (lots of each), but it can be done.

I am truly thankful that Matrix provides this forum for BiN owners to exchange information, and that Matrix and SSG staff do monitor these discussions…and frequently offer comments, answers, and explanations. I would appreciate hearing from them on this issue.

My point is: SSG has already provided a beautifully formatted and well written Game Manual, made for easy printing by game owners, and obviously has the capability of creating a Table of Contents as well (using a full/professional version of Adobe Acrobat)…but has not done so. Why not? Even better, SSG should be able to produce a fully functional TOC, properly keyed with corresponding page numbers (what a concept!) for each of the subject headings. Heck, it should also be able to produce an INDEX, as well. How about it, SSG?

Bob Cohen

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 7
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 1:18:07 PM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline 		Actually, all of the Adobe work on the rulebook was done by Scott Wilson (aka Brubaker) acting purely as a volunteer and out of a desire to help SSG and the Decisive Battles system.

I don't know how easy it will be to do what you ask, and if Scott can do it. If I have to learn how to really use Acrobat, it may take some time to deliver.

I appreciate that this is important to you, but I don't hear huge numbers of other users clamouring for this feature, so I won't pretend that it's top of my list of things to do.

When I know more, I'll certainly let you know.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to humunuku)
Post #: 8
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 2:12:56 PM   
JVSFugitive


Posts: 29
Joined: 4/2/2004
From: Halifax, Canada
Status: offline 		I have read the manual thouroughly so many times that I don't need a table of contents. I already know exactly were everything is located. Besides it is not a very long document.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 9
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 3:17:16 PM   
PresbyterJohn

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
Status: offline 		I was hoping the manual would be corrected and updated with the patch anyway.

(in reply to JVSFugitive)
Post #: 10
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 9:40:04 PM   
humunuku

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/31/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Actually, all of the Adobe work on the rulebook was done by Scott Wilson (aka Brubaker) acting purely as a volunteer and out of a desire to help SSG and the Decisive Battles system.

I don't know how easy it will be to do what you ask, and if Scott can do it. If I have to learn how to really use Acrobat, it may take some time to deliver.

I appreciate that this is important to you, but I don't hear huge numbers of other users clamouring for this feature, so I won't pretend that it's top of my list of things to do.

When I know more, I'll certainly let you know.

Gregor


Gregor,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I am stunned to learn that the BiN Game Manual was apparently converted to Adobe entirely by a volunteer: One can only wonder what gamers would have read without his efforts...perhaps some hexadecimal code...or Wordpad notes? I would have assumed that the Manual was important enough that professional staff would have been responsible for its entire preparation.

I am getting a sense that a printed Table of Contents is not important to most (any other?) gamers, given the comments following your posting above. Regardless of the fact that at least one gamer now has an excellent understanding of the Manual, one can wonder if most other Manual readers might actually benefit by a printed TOC, thus making it easier to look up specific material while they are learning to use the game (except of course, those who "don't need no 'stinking manual'"). Tables of Contents and Indexes are routinely considered part of sophisticated and complicated games and lengthy text documents. I have innumerable other game manuals (printed) with TOC's and Indexes.

I offer my thanks to Scott Wilson (aka Brubaker) for his volunteer efforts on the Manual.

For those who are interested, I originally learned about just the EXISTENCE of the on-disk Table of Contents (hiding within the Adobe "Bookmarks" feature) in a Run5 forum, entitled "KIAs." This discussion worked its way onto the subject of the TOC and INDEX in the third thread entry (and how to print such), and shows that at least a couple other gamers wished that they could print such documents. I hope that my following effort to link to the Run5 "KIAs" thread works:
http://robjess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1164

I, for one, would still appreciate having the ability to print the TOC, although by the time SSG gets around to it, I will have completed adding page numbers to my "kludge." What about future BiN buyers: Is there anyone left, who hasn't already bought? On the other hand, it would be nice to know that a printable TOC and INDEX would be included, as a matter of course, in all future SSG products.

I am willing to Email copies of my "kludge" TOC to any readers who desire it: You fill in your own page numbers...ugh!

Bob Cohen

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 11
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/20/2004 11:14:03 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

I am stunned to learn that the BiN Game Manual was apparently converted to Adobe entirely by a volunteer


"Volunteer" is definetly the wrong term here.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 10/21/2004 4:15:03 AM >

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

(in reply to humunuku)
Post #: 12
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 2:36:37 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: humunuku

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Actually, all of the Adobe work on the rulebook was done by Scott Wilson (aka Brubaker) acting purely as a volunteer and out of a desire to help SSG and the Decisive Battles system.

I don't know how easy it will be to do what you ask, and if Scott can do it. If I have to learn how to really use Acrobat, it may take some time to deliver.

I appreciate that this is important to you, but I don't hear huge numbers of other users clamouring for this feature, so I won't pretend that it's top of my list of things to do.

When I know more, I'll certainly let you know.

Gregor


Gregor,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I am stunned to learn that the BiN Game Manual was apparently converted to Adobe entirely by a volunteer: One can only wonder what gamers would have read without his efforts...perhaps some hexadecimal code...or Wordpad notes? I would have assumed that the Manual was important enough that professional staff would have been responsible for its entire preparation.


Bob Cohen


Bob,

I'm just trying to be honest with you here. I could have given you the industry standard answer but I think it's better that users understand the reality of what we're up against in the wargames industry. The entire game was created by three full time and one part time people. Using outside help on the manual meant that we had more time to spend on development, scenario creation and bug catching, all pretty important issues.

Would I like to have the ten people listed in the Warcraft III manual as working on 'Manual Development and Editing' (not counting the five extra people working on 'Manual Artwork') doing our manual? Of course I would, but it's not going to happen.

Here's another surprise. We didn't pay anybody for QA work either, yet BIN has shipped with almost zero bugs, and certainly no show-stoppers. That's a much better result than games with 'professional' internal and external QA teams (examples too numerous to mention).

So I guess what I'm saying is that we do the best we can with our limited means, and if that means that we can't do absolutely everything that is asked for, at least we'll be honest about it.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to humunuku)
Post #: 13
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 5:36:22 AM   
SlapBone


Posts: 269
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

I am stunned to learn that the BiN Game Manual was apparently converted to Adobe entirely by a volunteer


"Volunteer" is definetly the wrong term here.


I know where you are going with this statement Marc. So you answer the question...why is there no TOC in the printable part of the manual? Gregor may be a starving programmer, but you get paid to do these manuals.

I was getting a little annoyed with Bob until Gregor spouted the "NEW" Matrix mantra. I have spent about 400 dollars on Matrix games in the last 3 months and I am getting tired of all the rhetoric. Bob there spent $60 (at least) on a game that up until about 6 or 7 months ago would have come with a manual big enough to choke a mule. When he asks "Why can't I print the TOC?", your answer should be "Yes sir we'll get right on that".

If you guys are truly starving you would try to give us more for our money instead of less. Instead you want more money for MUCH less tangible product, and then you write it off to being victims of what I will now dub "Big Gaming" (you know like big tobacco.. anyway you heard it here first )

And to Gregor: these Matrix guys are leading you down the wrong path. Don't let them ruin your good name with all of this victim mentality.

_____________________________


(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 14
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 9:03:29 AM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Changing Acrobat settings to allow printing is easy IF you have the full version of the software AND the original document creator has not set a password on document restrictions.

At work I create a lot of Acrobat documents for internal and external distribution. Many are designed for on screen refence only ( especially the long, technical manuals) so the publications team disallow printing.

So the fix is to merely ask for the printing restriction to be removed from the document, unless of course the TOC is not a actual document in the first place!

dave

(in reply to SlapBone)
Post #: 15
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 9:33:44 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Does anyone remember the release of Avalon Hill's MBT board game? The index came months after in an issue of the General Magazine! Now that was bad

I've also by habit a couple of times, flicked to the non-existent contents page in my printed BiN manual! But as JVS pointed out, after one read you basically know its layout and I agree with John, I'd rather it was given a Second Edition treatment to fix a couple of errors, re-write the supply section and possibly expand alert points. I'm certain the refered to appendix chart for terrain costs is missing (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway yes, it is weird not to have a contents page or index in a manual. But...

... bad form, is making a game, deliberately leaving the rulebook vague so that you can sell a coicidentally marketed "Strategy Guide" that "will answer all those questions the rulebook didn't". That's not SSG or Matrix. It is EA and some other big heavies.

Adam.

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)
Post #: 16
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 1:43:18 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlapBone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

I am stunned to learn that the BiN Game Manual was apparently converted to Adobe entirely by a volunteer


"Volunteer" is definetly the wrong term here.


I know where you are going with this statement Marc. So you answer the question...why is there no TOC in the printable part of the manual? Gregor may be a starving programmer, but you get paid to do these manuals.

I was getting a little annoyed with Bob until Gregor spouted the "NEW" Matrix mantra.


You get the wrong impression here. Completly wrong. I offered my services, even did several comments about the manual in it´s beta state.

A missing TOC has nothing to do with the fact that wargames are a niche product or you need a ten people staff to do it.

What Gregor sayed has also nothing to do with "the"NEW Matrix mantra", whatever that is.

I requested several times that the final manual layout is going to be done by the publisher (like we allways do), not the developer.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 10/21/2004 6:49:37 PM >

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
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(in reply to SlapBone)
Post #: 17
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 10/21/2004 9:35:19 PM   
humunuku

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/31/2002
Status: offline 		Marc and Gregor (and the entire staffs at SSG/Matrix),

I just want to express my sincere appreciation for the feedback from both of you, regarding my plea for a written Table of Contents and Index. (Actually, I now believe that a comprehensive INDEX would be the most valuable reference, of the two documents.) I certainly have a greater appreciation for the labor that has gone into BiN (by a staff of "three and a half people," and your reliance on "outside staff." My guess is that most readers of this thread are now even more appreciative of the design of BiN, than they were a few days ago.

It is depressing to this ages old wargamer (from the Avalon Hill '70s boardgame era) that today's games which I like the best are limited to a very few small companies like as SSG and HPS...and that I have to realize certain practical limitations on game production are just a new fact of life. Despite all that, BiN is a terrific product and shows an awesome amount of effort went into trying to make it easy to play (especially the technical detail accessible by hovering of the cursor, "right clicks," the many on-screen helps, and the extensive Tutorial Manual...just to name a few).

I am truly appreciative of your product and continuing monitoring of the BiN game forums...and resulting feedback. I am also impressed by the openness on this Matrix forum, allowing us to vent at great length, without feeling that we are being censored--or ignored--for all the critical comments we express. Both Marc and Gregor do a fine job of responding in an honest and forthright manner about game issues such as price (ouch!), owner printing of the manuals, game production, gameplay, soliciting input for the planned BiN patch, etc...please keep it up!

Bob Cohen

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 18
RE: SSG: Print the Table of Contents! - 11/14/2004 7:29:15 PM   
LewFisher


Posts: 66
Joined: 8/18/2003
From: Reno, Nevada
Status: offline 		I understand the situation of "traditional Wargames" . However, I feel Matrix or SSG should update their rules as needed (like the table of contents0. What can so difficult to add, change or delete rules and put it on the website?

Sincerely, Lew fisher

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 19
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