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RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 11:13:03 AM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

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Post #: 61

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 12:09:23 PM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
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turn based, any time; I do play RTS games like the total war series, but when it comes to the real thing, turn based is better!!
GGWaW seems to be a good game, although i havn't looked into it much; will do that right now

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Post #: 62

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 12:45:24 PM

Spooky

Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

Most of the RTS games are for kid but GG's BOB/BTR are also RTS games

and they are still real hard-core wargames.

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Post #: 63

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 12:47:19 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

Most of the RTS games are for kid but GG's BOB/BTR are also RTS games and they are still real hard-core wargames.

Only during the resolution phase after all the planning is done, and then only for the defender. Basically a hybrid turn based game

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Post #: 64

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 12:48:06 PM

Halsey

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Real time? The only real time games I consider worth playing are IL-2 and Silent Hunter II. Can't wait for Silent Hunter III to come out! Online convoy duty, give me a Buckley to defend a convoy with! Nothing better than running down a U-Boat!

All real wargames are turn based.

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Post #: 65

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 12:52:23 PM

steveh11Matrix

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Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.
Give me turn based every time!

Depends on the pace at which you play. I'm not dexterity skilled, or quick-reflexed either.
Steve.

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Post #: 66

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 12:57:10 PM

Bobthehatchit

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From: GREAT BRITAIN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tanker4145

I think there's more young wargamers than you think. Heck I'm only 26, so definately a young'en to most of you. Of course, I don't know anyone else my age who has this game. But there are some of us.

27 mate... Got a number of younger friends who play WITP and UV as well, around the 23 mark. So this game is not just for older gamers, just gamers with a really interest in WWII and the pacific theatre.

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Post #: 67

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 1:01:00 PM

steveh11Matrix

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

Precisely the reaction I spoke about in the earlier post. Also, I might add, my own reaction before I tried it. I still agree for non-pausable stuff - it can be made to work for tactical games, where 'real-time' really means real-time, but not for Strategy games. Add variable speed and a pause, and it works. Believe me.
Oh, and it would avoid the problem of TF's zooming right over one another...
Steve.

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Post #: 68

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 1:08:22 PM

Spooky

Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

Most of the RTS games are for kid but GG's BOB/BTR are also RTS games and they are still real hard-core wargames.

Only during the resolution phase after all the planning is done, and then only for the defender. Basically a hybrid turn based game

True ... but I would rather call it a hybrid continuous-time based game

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Post #: 69

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 1:10:42 PM

steveh11Matrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

Precisely the reaction I spoke about in the earlier post. Also, I might add, my own reaction before I tried it. I still agree for non-pausable stuff - it can be made to work for tactical games, where 'real-time' really means real-time, but not for Strategy games. Add variable speed and a pause, and it works. Believe me.
Oh, and it would avoid the problem of TF's zooming right over one another...
Steve.

Just thought of something - instead of thinking of them as RTS, think of them as Turn-based - but with variable-length turns...

Steve.

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Post #: 70

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 1:26:34 PM

Top Cat

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/26/2002
From: Adelaide, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP

Don't give up on the V For Victory series!

Got mine to work under Win 98 (with a bit of work, mainly tweaking lower 640K of mem and mouse driver issues)

Upgraded to Win XP and they still work fine.

My favourite one is Market Garden. The AI can give you a good run
for your money in this one.

Cheers
Top Cat

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Post #: 71

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 1:33:10 PM

steveh11Matrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP

Don't give up on the V For Victory series!

Got mine to work under Win 98 (with a bit of work, mainly tweaking lower 640K of mem and mouse driver issues)

Upgraded to Win XP and they still work fine.

My favourite one is Market Garden. The AI can give you a good run
for your money in this one.

Cheers
Top Cat

Got that, and managed to make it work under W2000. Good game, although (my turn!) I'm not keen on the UI.

Steve.

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Post #: 72

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 1:55:20 PM

PzB74

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From: No(r)way
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I quickly found that Norway was too small...impossible to find anyone that shared my wargaming interests. Ok, I know a couple that I play Steel Panthers with and another few likes to play simpler games like Panzer General - but when it comes to games like War in Russia, UV, WitP etc. I'm basically on my own.

Never even seen anyone else from Norway on this forum! Hallo?

Next month I turn 30 and I'm getting visitors from Germany and Scotland that I got to know through playing wargames on the net! I think that's great, I'm certainly having a hobby that's going to keep me entertained for as long as I'm around

I've managed to recruit a couple of players for UV - but my nephew that's 15 doesn't even spend 2 seconds looking at my wargames. "H�h, nothings happening! How long does it take to play a game? at least a month?... *leaves* "

So me thinks it'll be difficult to get new recruits young players for games like WitP in ythe ears to come. Everyone's playing real time games with fancy graphics and lots of sound these days. (I've not played WitP with sound yet, never bothered to turn it on after the initial problems.)

We're dinosaurs just waiting for the next ice age to come along and wipe us out!

The good thing is that on a worldwide basis there should always be enough grognards to create a market for some quality wargames. Think about all the people that doesn't have a high speed internet con yet - as they get online the niche market for wargames will get keep on getting new recruits for quite some time to come.

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Post #: 73

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 2:58:58 PM

RevRick

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From: Thomasville, GA
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ACTION STATIONS!!!! I really wish someone would update that game. The graphics (such as they are) are antique, the UI is abysmal, and controlling the few AC in the game is ridiculous, but the data are thorough, the concept is great, and the AI was a bear at that time.

It was a great time sweating out the tension of being in the Combat Information Center on a flagship in battle - usually at night. My favorite battle was Savo Island, followed closely by First Guadalcanal.

OH. Got interrupted... I am heartened by the young'uns (anyond under 30 now) playing this game. It will always have some interest as long as there are people who really want to understand this aspect of history - what happens when the diplomatic wing of politics fails, and why we should try to make sure that it does not. I know a few teens and young adults who really show interest in that. Unfortunately, most of our media and the schools are caught up in the current fad which relegates history to myth in the realm of the politically correct relativism. Chamberlain would be perfectly at home in the academy today, and probably in liberal politics. His spirit is pervading it. Most in the academy decry T. Roosevelt - but he was right. You can speak softly when you can resort to the big stick. When you don't have it, your alternatives when confronted with conflicts are basically three - run, beg, or pay tribute. I find those choices unpalatable.

< Message edited by RevRick -- 10/22/2004 1:05:34 PM >

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Post #: 74

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 3:03:23 PM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ACTION STATIONS!!!! I really wish someone would update that game. The graphics (such as they are) are antique, the UI is abysmal, and controlling the few AC in the game is ridiculous, but the data are thorough, the concept is great, and the AI was a bear at that time.

It was a great time sweating out the tension of being in the Combat Information Center on a flagship in battle - usually at night. My favorite battle was Savo Island, followed closely by First Guadalcanal.

Always wanted to try this.

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Post #: 75

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 4:11:18 PM

Skyros

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From: Columbia SC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

The good thing is that on a worldwide basis there should always be enough grognards to create a market for some quality wargames. Think about all the people that doesn't have a high speed internet con yet - as they get online the niche market for wargames will get keep on getting new recruits for quite some time to come.

Thank god for the internet and PBEM. I have played Pac War vs a guy in Baltimore and RFSTA with a chap from England. Would love to PBEM WITP but I am afraid I would not be able to turn around my turns fast enough.

Is Haugesund near Kistiansand? I was there in 1980, rugged coastline with beautiful green hlls.

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Post #: 76

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 4:16:57 PM

rtrapasso

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OK - maybe this is a different thread - but who is the oldest grognard here? The youngest?

I'll try for oldest for now - I'll be 53 next week. I've been playing wargames for c. 40 years, (depending on what you call a war game, if chess is included about 45 years)...

********
Whoops! About 30 seconds after posting this original, I notice there IS another thread. Not sure how I can move this over, though...

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 10/22/2004 9:22:52 AM >

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Post #: 77

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 4:19:33 PM

Skyros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck
Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!?

Jim

I'm with you. It's called "Civil War," and it is about as good as wargame design ever got. The leader rules are without equal, and are, as they should be, the heart of the game.

This highlights a problem with computer simulations and the difficulty with keeping turn-based gaming alive for the PC. A lot of cyber-people think the future is in innovation and RTS. The real solution, for my money, is for developers to find the elegant, sophisticated solutions already developed in boardgames and create ways to adapt them to computer wargames. There's a lot of untapped wisdom out there, folks.

You should try Frank Hunters Civil War game that he is supposed to remake when he finishes his WWI game. I think the official name was Road From Sumter to Appomatix. I have been playing it for a long time and he supported it like Gary did Pacwar and Matrix does WITP. As a matter of fact he has two games on this forum a WWI and Napoleon era game.

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Post #: 78

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 4:47:18 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
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From: No(r)way
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Thank god for the internet and PBEM. I have played Pac War vs a guy in Baltimore and RFSTA with a chap from England. Would love to PBEM WITP but I am afraid I would not be able to turn around my turns fast enough.

Is Haugesund near Kistiansand? I was there in 1980, rugged coastline with beautiful green hlls.

Certainly is...about 250km north of Kristiansand. I know that, cause I'm finishing my degree at Agder College which lies in Kristiansand. Takes 5 hour by car/ferry.

Sounds like you described most of the west coast, here's a picture from Haugesund:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 79

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 5:05:42 PM

Nikademus

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Warship!

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Post #: 80

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 5:31:05 PM

coralsaw

Posts: 418
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From: Z�rich, CH
Status: offline

WiTP is definitely a labour of love. To me, possibly to many forum regulars as well, the price tag was absolutely justified especially considering the price/hour ratio. The main cash flow problem with such monster games is twofold though: a) small audience, b) one-off payment model.

The best one can do regarding the first issue is to expand the market, be it by dumbing down the game (God forbid!), spending more on marketing and distribution, or making the game more attractive for the mass market (easier interface, more eye candy, learn while you play stuff etc).

Regarding the second issue, perhaps changing the payment model is in order. This could mean either re-using the engine in new theatres ala SSG, Tiller etc, or charging for new upgrades and versions of the game (not fixes!). I personally wouldn't mind paying 30%-50% of the tag price for each new major upgrade to the engine (stressing the word 'major'here).

If I could come up with an (unsolicited) suggestion though, it would be for 2by3 to let go of the things they are not good at while making money doing it. Zoomie talked about it some time ago, and being a software engineer myself I can see it happening. What I hate most about WiTP, but have gotten used to is the homemade user interface. I'd love to see and pay full price for a re-done standard Windows interface that fully exports all data, imports order scripts, is moddable and in general makes micromanagent a non-issue. Please 2by3, think about creating a WiTP packaged engine and license it to somebody (or do it inhouse) that has lots of experience with usability and game interface rolling. And call it "WiTP deluxe".

Yeah, I'd love that and pay good money for it.

Regards

/coralsaw

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RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 5:37:41 PM

steveh11Matrix

Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ACTION STATIONS!!!! I really wish someone would update that game. The graphics (such as they are) are antique, the UI is abysmal, and controlling the few AC in the game is ridiculous, but the data are thorough, the concept is great, and the AI was a bear at that time.

It was a great time sweating out the tension of being in the Combat Information Center on a flagship in battle - usually at night. My favorite battle was Savo Island, followed closely by First Guadalcanal.

Actions Stations! is still my all-time favourite turn-based WW2 naval game. That's kind've a narrow field, it's true, but still...I haven't played a better one.
Agree entirely about it's defects, but it still 'works' - and is capable of surprising the heck out of me at times.

It's still around here somewhere, probably zipped up and hived off onto a CD, but I do still have it.

Steve.

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Post #: 82

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 5:38:03 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

What about that mixed breed thing, like Shogun Total War? It was both turn-based and RTS. Never really got into the game that much, but I thought the concept was very clever and can see a future for it. Strategic implementation is all turn based but you have the option to drop down to RTS mode to fight the battles or just let the computer resolve it.

Kind of liked old Harpoon's model some as well, where you could alter the rate at which time went by depending on how busy things got.

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Post #: 83

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 5:49:59 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Only during the resolution phase after all the planning is done, and then only for the defender. Basically a hybrid turn based game

This is how Combat Mission works too....the only semi-RTS wargame i own and one i actually like though Steel Panthers will always be my first love. That and because being a SP vet of so many years....i positively SUCK at Combat Mission. I cant even win using King Tigers!!!!!!!!

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Post #: 84

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 7:01:36 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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Well, I for one think that WITP has pushed the edge a bit. It is fine product-one of the best I hae seen. But it is also massive in scope and not for new players. Its a game for the experienced. I can't imagine many new or young players jumping right in. You must be a student of the the Pacific conflict and I think it is taken for granted that most players will understand the basic stragetic and political considerations involved. That is gonna limit your playing population.

That said, I don't think you can expect many games to enter the market that are on the scope and scale of WITP. Nothing wrong with that. In my opinion we are experiencing a second golden age of wargaming. The first came in the late 70s and early 80s.

It is happening again but it a direct result of computers and the internet. Computers have added so much. First of all, as a old boardgamer, you don't know how much I appreciate, "fog of war". It was virtually impossible to design this into board games. Now it is reality and makes wargames so much better. Also the internet has opened up a whole new world for me with email and on line gaming. In the past my pool of partners was severly restricted to driving range. Now I have gaming friends all over the world! How great is that?

The second great result of the internet is that it has allowed small companys such as Matrix to prosper. The intenet allows for a simplier marketing with less overhead. It also create great word of mouth buzz and allows for better communication within commutities. As a result, there have been some great products come out in recent years. UV, WitP and many other great titles from Matrix, HPS simulations excellent Panzer Campaigns series, Battlefront's delightful Combat Mission series, and for simmers the just stunning IL2-Forgotten Battles (from a Russian designer). And there are more titles that others love that I have not been able to even try out. The one common thing about all of these companies is that they fully support their products with patch after patch based on feedback from the people that play them. The games actually get better with age! They are building customer loyalty and as a result are producing an incredible flow of diverse and quality products.

To me, a gamer for close to 40 years, the future has never looked brighter. You will not see many products like WITP, but then again, you don't have the time for many products like WITP. But you are gonna see some fine stuff come out. There are new games coming out daily, that are just blowing me away. Stuff, that was beyond my scope of imagination even ten years ago.

Thanks Matrix guys! Rock on!

By the way, I love 1st person shooters as well. They are fun as all hell. My life is nothing but open doors.

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Post #: 85

RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/22/2004 7:06:44 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 3rd ACR Tanker

Actually, I've noticed that alot of my favorite types of games are becoming a dying breed. I love the Flight Sims, most of the ones from Janes. Can't find a great one now, so I'm stuck with the same old routine.

.

Do you have "Forgotten Battles"? Its one heck of a sim.

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Post #: 86

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 7:19:11 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Never played Shogun Total War but I loved the Medieval one. Harpoon's system was excellent. I would have liked to have seen if they were going to make any changes to it. Unfortunately, last I time I checked Harpoon IV was still in the toilet.

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Post #: 87

RE: RTS vs Turned Base - 10/22/2004 7:34:27 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
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I play IL_2 FB now, and can't wait to pick up Pacific Fighters with the rest of my squad. One of my favorite war games was Great Naval Battles series and Close Combat.

Another great one I still have and if I coudl get it to play woudl still play was Carriers at WAr by SSG. That was a great game.

UB

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Post #: 88

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 7:46:44 PM

medicff

Posts: 710
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From: WPB, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

Regarding the second issue, perhaps changing the payment model is in order. This could mean either re-using the engine in new theatres ala SSG, Tiller etc, or charging for new upgrades and versions of the game (not fixes!). I personally wouldn't mind paying 30%-50% of the tag price for each new major upgrade to the engine (stressing the word 'major'here).

I don't mind the price tag for a great game. But as the games get more complex then comes the question of support to get out the bugs and making the game enjoyable. Knowing such a process of removing all the bugs before mass playtesters (the buyers) is not a realistic option then at least we need commitment from all companies like Matrix to support the product. It really does suck to pluck down $70.00 on a great game only to find it frustrating and unplayable after a short time (not to mention your time invested in playing the game). There comes the large uncertainity of whether to pay or pass as more than once I have been burned with very promising games. I hate to point fingers because overall I am very happy with Matrix games who are much better than most, but UV is such a game that just didn't quite get out all the bugs and problems because WITP loomed over the horizon. Which, lets face it, probably was a financially based decision to keep the revenue coming in. (called business). Therefore I don't know that I support "Upgrades/new versions" to continue the revenue when I believe the product should have been complete for the initial price offering.

(in reply to coralsaw)

Post #: 89

RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/22/2004 11:26:38 PM

sveint