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The Brits went to war without their guns ??

 
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The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 1:02:54 AM   
ehoch

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Now Iassume the military units are close to historical facts - so why on earth did the Brits go for the first 12 + days without any artillery ??? All they can do is "sit there at the beach and play soccer" (as somebody else put it). You can't really push inland because of supply and they are just a sitting duck for the Germans. I did try twice to keep the paratroopers on the other side of the river -- 50/50 once they were destroyed within 2 turns and once I was able to build up a bridgehead -- I must have confused the hell out of the AI, because I had Caen by turn 10.

So I am thinking that the Brits went to gunfight and only brought their knives...
Post #: 1
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 1:35:25 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		playingthe Brits is tough no ? about it... the are hard pressed play both sides at the same time to see the reverse, Germans get few if any replacments and are stretched thin

(in reply to ehoch)
Post #: 2
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 1:56:27 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

...why on earth did the Brits go for the first 12 + days without any artillery ??? All they can do is "sit there at the beach and play soccer" (as somebody else put it). You can't really push inland because of supply...I must have confused the hell out of the AI, because I had Caen by turn 10...


What scen are you playing? In the full Overlord campaign the Brits I've commanded possess ample maneuvering power, the ability to completely turn the Caen west and east flank if given the opportunity (read poor opponent) and plentiful artillery sufficient to support both a push out of Bayeux and against Caen.

The Brits and Canadians land on turn 1 with their own supply units as opposed to Omaha and Utah. Further, go ahead and let the Germans attack close to the beaches. Sit every Allied destroyer off the coast and in range and you've got more than ample supplementary close-in firepower!

Adam.

(in reply to ehoch)
Post #: 3
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 3:02:51 AM   
ehoch

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What scen are you playing? In the full Overlord campaign the Brits I've commanded possess ample maneuvering power, the ability to completely turn the Caen west and east flank if given the opportunity (read poor opponent) and plentiful artillery sufficient to support both a push out of Bayeux and against Caen.

The Brits and Canadians land on turn 1 with their own supply units as opposed to Omaha and Utah. Further, go ahead and let the Germans attack close to the beaches. Sit every Allied destroyer off the coast and in range and you've got more than ample supplementary close-in firepower!


I am not sure what you are playing -- I am playing Overlord and I Allied on turn 12. I just got my 3rd Artillery unit. The Yanks already have 15 + on land. As far as flanking -- East is the river (and you can not expect to make it across against any human opponent). The West is great until the hedges begin + the smaller river. If the Germans draw a line at the river - there is not much you can do -- without artillery (the destroyers can't reach).

Just look at the After Action Reports from the game builders -- the Germans are still holding Caen on turn 27.

I do love the support / supply on Brit side -- but right now they have more anti-air than guns on the ground.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 4
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 3:51:05 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

I am not sure what you are playing -- I am playing Overlord


LOL! Well, we're both on the same page I really need the game in front of me to check what you're seeing. It would seem the Commonwealth's priority rests with landing infantry and armor - and a plethora of Commonwelath divisions across the first few turns really boosts their hand. More divisions than at Omaha, note.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

I did try twice to keep the paratroopers on the other side of the river -- 50/50 once they were destroyed within 2 turns and once I was able to build up a bridgehead -- I must have confused the hell out of the AI, because I had Caen by turn 10.


Which makes me take my hat off to you as with that I was truly impressed!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

Just look at the After Action Reports from the game builders -- the Germans are still holding Caen on turn 27.


Which historically would be the case. Goodwood, the liberation of Caen after the failed western offensives around Tilly, didn't launch until July (towards the end of BiN's official Campaign game) and it was by no means a sure thing. One of the best rewards in this game is taking Caen earlier than actuality and it is an immense accomplishment.

US artillery preponderance reflects the main advantage the US forces possessed at the time of Overlord. Artillery was viewed as the Army's greatest asset, compensating for immense weaknesses in 75mm tubed armor and a triangular infantry division diluted in terms of firepower by the refusal of Army Command to make notional allocations of heavy weaponry, tank destroyers, tanks and AT guns larger than 57mm at the company-platoon level. Even regimental artillery operated within the divisional artillery park due to the cumbersome nature of the 105mm and this to a large measure, is what those many artillery units represent: An immense flexibility and an over-supply in US tubes vs the Wehrmacht.

The artillery batteries of the Commonwealth certainly make themselves felt. But I'm equally sure that there are more than 3 units inland for employment by Turn 12.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

I do love the support / supply on Brit side -- but right now they have more anti-air than guns on the ground.


See, that's the thing. For every AA unit I'm sure I've had a stack of Commonwealth artillery accompanying it.

Btw I started playing the Campaign as the German vs an Allied AI the other day and the landing scene is like watching a documentary. You see the naval fire and feel the units swarming ashore. On my first turn though, I didn't check the German's positions as a sense of nostalgia came to me. I just had to play as the Allies again and do better than last time! So that's where I'm off to next

Adam.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 10/26/2004 11:52:02 AM >

(in reply to ehoch)
Post #: 5
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 3:30:06 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		It seems the divisional artillery is not directly represented in this KP/BiN system, i.e. there are no artillery regiments present that belonged to a certain division (for example, German Inf.Divisions had 3 Inf.Regiments and 1 artillery regiment - at least on paper), there are only the independent artillery battallions. This is probably the reason why there are so few Commonwealth artillery units in the beginning.

_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

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(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 6
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/26/2004 6:08:47 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		The Brits were up to the ears in RA units, and should have as many, if not more Corps Artillery Batteries then the Yanks on the ground by turn 11, especially the Heavy batteries.


The games abstracts many things for playability, and this is one of them.

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 7
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/27/2004 9:23:56 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ehoch

Now Iassume the military units are close to historical facts - so why on earth did the Brits go for the first 12 + days without any artillery ??? All they can do is "sit there at the beach and play soccer" (as somebody else put it). You can't really push inland because of supply and they are just a sitting duck for the Germans. I did try twice to keep the paratroopers on the other side of the river -- 50/50 once they were destroyed within 2 turns and once I was able to build up a bridgehead -- I must have confused the hell out of the AI, because I had Caen by turn 10.

So I am thinking that the Brits went to gunfight and only brought their knives...


Previous posters are correct, divisional artillery is included in the ratings for the regiments themselves, and British divisions are often rated higher than US divisions for this reason.

As for the non-divisional guns, they are taken straight from the OBs published in official histories, so it's unlikely that they are wrong to any material degree.

Gregor

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See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to ehoch)
Post #: 8
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/28/2004 2:48:12 AM   
ehoch

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Well - I am sure that they had some artillery included somewhere, but apparently not enough to break into Caen (game and historically). I don't know how it would have worked out historically - but I know that in the game you would have a much better chance taking Caen in the first 10-12 turns with maybe 8-10 artillery units. As it is you might be able to do this against the AI, but probably not against another human player.

How about some "Good Strategies Tips" -- who wants to share some of their tips and tricks ?? : Here is one that worked for me a couple of times when you have almost surrounded a German unit(s) that is entrenched in good defensive territory (this can be very frustrating, especially when the dice is "cursed") -- do a minor 6-1 or 7-1 attack and make them retreat into the clear -- and then it's killing time.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 9
RE: The Brits went to war without their guns ?? - 10/28/2004 3:55:14 PM   
pterrok


Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline 		Here ya go, ehoch!

KP & BiN Articles

I'm trying to add that link to my sig, as well...

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KP & BiN Articles

(in reply to ehoch)
Post #: 10
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