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Save Game Files - 10/25/2004 11:33:57 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		I have a question/suggestion regarding save game files. it's my understanding (right or wrong) that the save game files are encrypted which prevents access to in-game states. This is presumably why the utilities being developed by the user community for scenario start info can't be used for in game queries.
WitP is a wonderful game that didn't go the extra yard as to interface/information management. These add-on's do this, but are limited to starts.

Is there any reason to encrypt these game files ? Sure would be nice to turn these
utilities loose for in progress games ?
Post #: 1
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 12:43:40 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Encryption of the save games removes the ability to modify the results of PBEM games.

Think of what could happen if they were not locked ...

Run into a bad CV battle that didn't go your way? No problem, open up the save and relocate your CV's 1 hex so they don't get attacked.

Shock Attack failed? No problem, cancel the attack order until another round of troops unload.

Couple that with the obvious fact that you could simply go in and look at the other guy's stuff and his orders then tailor yours to match.

It is the simplest way of removing dispute between players when things go poorly for one of them.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 2
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 2:52:05 AM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Can't you just use different save file extension or something, for PBEM games versus single? Although I'm pretty sure there is an explanation for your way .

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 3
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 4:51:02 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		What would be really cool is to have a turn report file that when loaded does the turn the replay and the game generate a Japanese and Allied player turn file that is encrpyted. Send the replay file to your opponnent and their encrypted next turn start file. That way we could pull data from the turn replay and not interfer with our oppenents turn, players could alternate who executes the turn as well. Programming hassle would be having to have a different process for PBEM game saves.

As it currently stands, is there any method to prevent the turn executor from running the turn several times to get a better result?

(in reply to testarossa)
Post #: 4
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 4:56:16 AM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Encryption of the save games removes the ability to modify the results of PBEM games.

Think of what could happen if they were not locked ...


A "dump/export my forces" is probably what the users need. Just export one's own units in CSF format, and then peeps could write how many tools they wanted to analyze this, that and everthing else they wanted too..

F.

_____________________________

I'm running out of jokes...


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 5
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 5:00:32 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Belce


As it currently stands, is there any method to prevent the turn executor from running the turn several times to get a better result?


The results will be the same no matter how many times the turn is run.

(in reply to Belce)
Post #: 6
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 8:09:29 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		This isn't the only computer game to have pbem. Either all that don't encrypt game files have honesty issues with gamers (at least some) or there are alternate methods for protecting the data without completely shutting out in process game states.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 7
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 12:04:20 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		It's been brought up before, with the same (tired old) argument: "It's to prevent cheating in PBEM." So sorry guys, it's really sad that all of your PBEM opponents cheat all the time, and you can't find honest players to play against.

If that came over a little strong, I'm sorry, but it really ought to be simple enough to turn encryption OFF for players if they want it. It would be a major boon for those, like myself, who would like to base a scenario off a save-game position.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 8
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 3:56:47 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Care to post all your PBEM passwords? That is want you are talking about here.

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 9
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 6:05:57 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Are non-PBEM game files encrypted (I'm not sure). I know they are definitely compressed. If so perhaps Matrix/2by3 would be so good as to let us know what compression algorithm is used etc. ?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 10
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 6:06:00 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Care to post all your PBEM passwords? That is want you are talking about here.

I'm really sorry, Frag, but that's simply ridiculous.

  • Not everyone plays PBEM
  • It ought to be possible to set it up as an option
  • The sheer amount of time invested in a game like this, then lost when you have to restart when a major patch with new OOB information is released - for a fairly small example the amended Firefly's in 1.3 (per Pry's post) - simply demands that you be able to take a save game and amend the OOB info.

Besides, are all of you PBEM-ers such an untrustworthy bunch? Do you intentioanally cheat whenever possible? If so, what's the point?

Sorry if I come over a tad shrill here, but I do not recognise, and never have recognised, the need for the encryption. If some of you want it as an option, then fine, but it's simply an obstructive non-necessity to me.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 11
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 6:33:22 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		So I want to be clear as to what exactly the request is:

a) You want net new code added that *selectively" writes the the save file unencrypted.

b) You want new artwork done for the selection choice which has to fit on a screen somewhere.

c) You want this new save file format published with the internals of the game which is stored in a completely different format the the scenario files.

d) You want some third party to write from scratch a new editor that lets you change this data that is now exposed.

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 12
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 6:38:03 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		That sounds like more or less what's required :)

I think the point is that this facility apparently existed for PacWar, third-party though it might have been.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 13
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 6:47:08 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		a) No, 'you' want it to be selective.
b) No artwork necessary.
c) For all I care it can be saved in text format. Once it's un-encrypted, then:
d) I have faith that even if *I* can't puzzle out what to change, someone else will.

From my point of view, small change, large gain.

But if I thought it was *absolutely vital* I'd have re-posted this in the wishlist. I'm realistic enough to know that this is never, ever, ever going to be implemented due to the pre-existing situation.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 14
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 8:07:47 PM   
2Stepper


Posts: 948
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: North Burbs of Omaha
Status: offline 		I guess I don't really understand the debate here. Seems like a fuss in a vacuum to me. The only thing I've ever wanted out of PBEM files was the smallest filesize possible for ease of emailing.

Otherwise, encrypted or not is really beside the point to me as I don't even think about it. Reason being is that I consider the email and loading process of the files to be a manual method of the computers resolving the turn in an online turn based game. So honestly while some MIGHT think this way or that about a turn miscue it really doesn't occur to me. Supposed to be a wargame right? You just roll with the punches is all.

That's just my 2 cents from left field as there's just as much a chance that I didn't even "get" the discussion/argument. LOL!! Keep em churnin gents!

_____________________________


"Send in the Infantry. Tanks cost money... the dead cost nothing..." :)

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 15
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 8:33:02 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		OK guys,

Relative to Mr Frag's comments ..........

The user community (not me though) has apparently set up a number of utilities to
query game state information, but is limited to the 'at start' positions. I've seen
threads both here and at Spooky's on add-on/separate utilities that help with alot
of the multitude of data this tremendous games generates/tracks (but only at the
start). I frankly don't care whether the information for the side that I'm playing comes
directly out of a query of the save game file, or a separate file is generated that
can be queried. Bottomline, with the use of these utilities and future ones would
GREATLY aid in the players game management.

Apparently, the information management/interface was decided a long time ago to
do this and not that. Fine, I'm sure they were for good reasons. But at least allow the
community access to enhance this. I'd like to query the game and provide a listing of ALL
assets at every base I have. If I can get it as a csv file. I'm good to go. This is an example and I'm sure there are others.

I don't mean to over simplify but don't sell this issue to me as purely an honesty thing between players. There are ways around that.

(in reply to 2Stepper)
Post #: 16
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 8:54:13 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I don't mean to over simplify but don't sell this issue to me as purely an honesty thing between players. There are ways around that.


How many people either posted here or flooded us with PM's about the scenario files reporting they may have been modified? I know I got at least 50 personally of this sort: "Don't want to you and I don't want to imply anything, but the ... says it has been modified. Is this ok?"

The save files were locked to prevent cheating. If you do not accept that people cheat, thats perfectly fine. I am not implying they do. It was simply done to prevent it from the very start, just as the scenario files are signed ... to inspire trust between two players.

I also understand that it would be fantastic to be able to go in and fix things that went wrong in a game *after* the fact without having to restart just because "xyz" got fixed.

I'm not taking sides one way or the other, I just want to be very clear on the implications before I go and turn this into a feature request that may or may not ever get implemented.

The overall implication is that once this was done, there is no going back in time to the days of people knowing that save games are locked ... period ... Pandora has been released for all time. It can never be undone. Once you have a normal save and an encrypted save, it takes about 15 minutes to reverse engineer the encryption. Look at the state of DVD's

I am rather mixed personally about that implication. People are generally of good moral character and don't cheat, but when things go bad the temptation to have a peak is awfully high. One peak can potentially ruin what was a great game that 2 people had committed months of their time to.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 17
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 9:04:18 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not taking sides one way or the other, I just want to be very clear on the implications before I go and turn this into a feature request that may or may not ever get implemented.


One way of avoiding complications is to keep everything as it is, and add this feature: when saving a game, always generate a text file with extension .CSV, that has all the data for the units on my side, like

ShipName,X,Y,TF,Sys,etc...
CV Enterprise,20,40,38,0,etc...
....
LcuName,X,Y,Leader,etc...
66th Inf,50,60,Gen Bruhaha,etc...
...

That wouldn't affect PBEM, and would enable folks to write down their utilities.

F.

_____________________________

I'm running out of jokes...


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 18
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 9:40:01 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Frag - OK: I've made my pitch, now I'm going to wait and see what other people think. Thanks for understanding that the 'screetch factor' was frustration talking, and not personal.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 19
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 10:06:20 PM   
MadmanRick


Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

I have a question/suggestion regarding save game files. it's my understanding (right or wrong) that the save game files are encrypted which prevents access to in-game states. This is presumably why the utilities being developed by the user community for scenario start info can't be used for in game queries.
WitP is a wonderful game that didn't go the extra yard as to interface/information management. These add-on's do this, but are limited to starts.

Is there any reason to encrypt these game files ? Sure would be nice to turn these
utilities loose for in progress games


Question? What possible use would this info provide (besides the aforementioned cheating, which I think could be a problem)? I don't understand this at all. Someone please enlighten me?

Rick

_____________________________


"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter". Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 20
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 11:34:17 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		The biggest single reason I can think of is that you could go in and fix stuff when it went wrong.

Lets say Pry makes a typo in the data and you have started a new game and 3 months from now someone notices that the penetration value for the 37mm AA gun on a DD happens to go through 8" of armor. As it sits now, you have to live with it or restart your game to get the effects of a new scenario file update into the game.

Another good example is a base or a unit that for whatever reason decides to flip sides or vanish. You could just jump in and fix it (assuming both sides agreed to the fix and there really is no reason they shouldn't).

The problem is that this ability also exposes stuff to prying eyes that should not be exposed and that is the negative aspect involved that gives one pause for thought with this particular request.

Two sides of the coin ... one is positive, the other is a bit concerning. The problem is that once the coin is flipped, there is no way of flipping it back. It would be like Kid went through all emails and posted all the save game passwords from people who sent saves in for problems. Once done, there is no way of undoing it.

It certainly has a very real value when we are talking games that people will invest years in. It's just the Dark Side of the Force is rather tempting.

(in reply to MadmanRick)
Post #: 21
RE: Save Game Files - 10/26/2004 11:57:25 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Mr Frag .....

I must be VERY bad at explaining things. The two reasons, one (maybe good) and one bad, have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with my suggestion. I want to extract in game states for game management. I want to port it to something that allows me to sort to my hearts content. Its 2/6/42. How much fuel and supplies to I have in PH ? What is the current demand for these ? Yes I could go base by base just like lifting the cardboard counters from the monster SPI games to find this out, but I prefer a more convinent means of extracting just what the heck is going on. The information is ultimately available during my game turn but is a very cumbersome manner. If either the game provided this information out to a csv file or allowed us to access it, life is good. Frankly, I don't care whether the games file is encrypted or not. In fact, I would agree with you that I don't wnat people "correcting" things midstream.
There IS however information that I'd like to get concerning in game events/stat's for
MY side. How can this be accomplished ?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 22
RE: Save Game Files - 10/27/2004 12:04:26 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		So you just want a straight data dump with no ability to feed anything back in?

Purely one sided data for the player's side currently running I take it?

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 23
RE: Save Game Files - 10/27/2004 12:17:32 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Yes far as your describing it, and my limited experience with the game so far,,,,
YES. I wouldn't want access to go in and change things myself, nor would I want someone else to do so. Yes, I've read te posts where alot of people have an opinion that such-n-such is too powerful and needs to be fixed. Isn't that the concept of what the Lemuers scenario is based on ?

I do want to access information on a given turn, probably all of them, where I take the data dump to Excel and start sorting. I'd personnally start with a review of how my bases are doing, sorted by each of the 5 major zones. What's at each base, what the base demands are (ie, do I need to get more stuff there soon), what a/c are currently based there in what numbers, how are the aircrews stats (fatigue, etc ...), Is this base currently set up for auto-convoy, etc ...... There is alot of house keeping that can be done this way.

Bottomline, this is by design, a massive game on a massive scale. Given that this is the 21st century, reading posts about people keeping game information notes on stickie's
stuck to the wall seems a bit silly. Particularly when the information is already available, just not accessible.

Thanks.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 24
RE: Save Game Files - 10/27/2004 1:12:08 AM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Frag, Scout: A single-sided data dump doesn't allow for the fixing of problems in a scenario though, does it?

But, it has to be said, most of the info is already available for 'we solo players', isn't it? I haven't a clue if it's the same for a PBEM game, but all I have to do is load up my last save, change the side I'm playing, and Lo! I have access to almost all the info I would need. A bit pointless cheating myself, but I could use the info to re-create the position in the editor. Around about the time I retire, in (hopefully less than) 17 years I should think!

Alternatively, how about a "Save As Scenario File" option? Original save game file is left, and can therefore remain encrypted if you want. Doesn't stop the 'peeking' problem, does prevent alteration, but would certainly allow the 'fixing' of busted games.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 25
RE: Save Game Files - 10/27/2004 2:48:42 AM   
GBirkn


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

So you just want a straight data dump with no ability to feed anything back in?

Purely one sided data for the player's side currently running I take it?

Yes, please! This would be wonderful!

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 26
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