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Absolutely superb AI - 10/17/2004 5:27:28 PM

Adam Parker

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For fear of ranting I'm happy to declare that BiN is offering the best gameplay of any war game I've had the privilege to own. Well-done SSG! You deserve the praise.

I have never seen such a superb AI manage defense and counter-attacks across an entire region in which interior lines favor the attacker (or otherwise for that matter

).

I am delightfully having my head served to me by an agressive and deceptive AI opponent and I just don't know how SSG has managed this without scripting of any kind (NB: I'm playing at "Computer-" at the advice of Gregor to obviate an AI replacement issue - but a setting not effecting gameplay in any manner).

Someone noted their ability to manever the British Airborne across the eastern and southern confines of the map unopposed. Well this attempt at the Overlord Campaign, the 6th AB landed farther to the east and unable to make it northwest across the Caen bridges on Turn 1. Having wrecked some havoc at a series of bridges over the next few turns and verging at the exhaustion of supply, the division decided to venture south and west in order to hopefully regain the Allied lines around Bayeux. Nine turns later, the AI had hunted them down, drawn panzer elements away from the Caen front, encircled three AB regiments, drove them to isolation and a turn later, totally eliminated the pride of the British Army (the furore would have been enough one thinks, to make Monty ponder twice about the employment of airborne in the future).

Turn 20 and the AI holding the Carentan line (I'm doing very poorly in the south of Utah, simply holding a barely stretched line whilst I manever northwest towards Cherbourg) almost totally pulls out from the south and west. Around the southwest of Omaha the AI pulls out too. What's going on? It's panic! Have these troops been sent to shore up Army Group Centre around Minsk

So I take the opportunity. I realign my fronts, concentrate for a push into Carentan and to the southeast of Omaha to free up the British south of Bayeax. Things are looking much better now...

...Turn 21 and the AI returns with a vengence! Overstretched Allied lines are punched, Carentan reinforced en mass. The 101st AB probed and counter-attacked. Where then, had the AI gone a turn earlier? To re-arrange its lines out of sight and protected by the fog of war! But it's effect was as if a human sat before me and had just pulled off a brilliant bluff! This is the "thinking person's" PC gaming at its best.

And all the while the AI, with the bulk of two SS Panzer Korps, continued to lay havoc to my plans around Caen.

Superb!

Someone just asked the differences between Korsun Pocket and Battles In Normandy? Well, this is it (and a whole lot more)

So SSG, do port KP to BiN level, do revise ATD as well and bring on Italy! Charge away as I've suggested before (taking previous owners in mind). You've earned the right.

Adam.

Post #: 1

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/17/2004 7:49:24 PM

PJJ

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I agree, BiN has the best AI I've ever seen in a wargame! It's doing a lot better job than many human players, so this is indeed a major achievement! I really don't understand the people who say wargames should be PBEM/Hotseat only, you've proven with BiN that wargames _can_ have a great AI.

Keep up the good work!

_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

-French General Auguste Ducrot before the Battle of Sedan, September 1870

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 2

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/17/2004 8:07:30 PM

TheHellPatrol

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I agree...computer- doesn't make it easy by any means. I think we have a very solid base from which to expand upon, bring 'em on guys

. I believe the ai SSG has nurtured and developed for their DB games is THE best of any wargame ever created and the proof is in the pudding.

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Post #: 3

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/17/2004 8:41:44 PM

comsolut

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Thanks - your impressions convinced me to purchase BiN.

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Post #: 4

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/28/2004 6:33:24 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

I really don't understand the people who say wargames should be PBEM/Hotseat only,

Heh, those are your die-hard hard-core grogs who can't stand that the board wargaming genre is dying, slowly drifting away as the lights go out. Soooooo, they want to keep that board wargaming feeling alive in stale board wargames coverted to the computer without an AI so all the resources go into making the complexities of the old games hardly anyone played but the die-hard hard-core and dump the AI. There's still some board wargame makers out there, but, hardly the board wargame customers that there were in the 60's & 70's the peak of the board wargaming era.

We all have our preferences, doubtful you will ever see many if any computer wargames that are multiplayer/pbem human only. Just doesn't grab the majority of the market and the wargame genre is already hurting, no need to destroy it completely, just yet. Too many FPS and RTS types that grew up in this era of FPS/RTS, so lol a board wargame style of game to them is immediately boring to the majority.

Have to stick to where the $$ are and for now and much of the past for computer wargames it's always relied on having an AI along with great gameplay and replayability as well. I would never buy a computer game without one.

(in reply to PJJ)

Post #: 5

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/28/2004 2:29:26 PM

Clipper1968

Posts: 445
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From: LA, Ca
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I can only approve,nothing to add!!!

Merci beaucoup!!!Thank you very much!!!

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Post #: 6

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/28/2004 2:56:55 PM

PresbyterJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

I really don't understand the people who say wargames should be PBEM/Hotseat only,

Heh, those are your die-hard hard-core grogs who can't stand that the board wargaming genre is dying, slowly drifting away as the lights go out. Soooooo, they want to keep that board wargaming feeling alive in stale board wargames coverted to the computer without an AI so all the resources go into making the complexities of the old games hardly anyone played but the die-hard hard-core and dump the AI. There's still some board wargame makers out there, but, hardly the board wargame customers that there were in the 60's & 70's the peak of the board wargaming era.

We all have our preferences, doubtful you will ever see many if any computer wargames that are multiplayer/pbem human only. Just doesn't grab the majority of the market and the wargame genre is already hurting, no need to destroy it completely, just yet. Too many FPS and RTS types that grew up in this era of FPS/RTS, so lol a board wargame style of game to them is immediately boring to the majority.

Have to stick to where the $$ are and for now and much of the past for computer wargames it's always relied on having an AI along with great gameplay and replayability as well. I would never buy a computer game without one.

Since when have AI only computer games been the majority of the market?

When you note that the most popular computer games are really games like the Diablo series and the Warcraft/Starcraft series, and FPS style games you'll see that there is a significant online market. No matter how much you and your money are in favour of only playing the AI, online multiplayer is becoming more and more popular as internet access expands. There is no reason why tactical wargaming should not follow this trend.

< Message edited by Prester John -- 10/28/2004 12:58:03 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/28/2004 6:27:05 PM

Warpstorm

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Having some experience working in the computer games industry, most people still play games against the AI even when a game supports MP play. Even the *craft games are mainly played offline. Blizzard in particular has put very strong single player modes into all of their games since they know that most people will be playing mainly them.

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Post #: 8

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/29/2004 9:36:18 AM

PresbyterJohn

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But those single player modes are not using the AI that one would expect for a hex based computer wargame which is competant against a human player. The best single player RTS battles are either the scripted campaign games or the ones with significant material advantage to the computer.

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Post #: 9

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/29/2004 1:40:54 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

The best single player RTS battles are either the scripted campaign games or the ones with significant material advantage to the computer.

It doesn't matter how it's programmed it's the fact it "does" have an AI. Put a human vs human only game without "any" AI on the market and watch the sale plummet for the game. "Single" player games rule the market. You listed a handful of games with an online community of a few 1000 vs millions of computer gamers. The sales figures alone vs the multiplayer communities show that single player vs ai is more popular than MP FPS/RTS games pitting human vs humans.

The SIMS alone has sold more copies of games than any other game and until recently had NO MP online experience as with The Sims Online which is a pitiful game. If anything The SIMS proves the majority of buyers out there are happy with a "SP" game, as long as it's fun and there's a decent AI in it to play with or against.

Even Everquest, AO, UO, and all those MMORPGS have AI's, they aren't just bland ole human vs human games in fact they are Human vs Enviornment(AI) in a lot of them and look at their customer base. Humans vs the computer reigns supreme and will for a long time to come, in fact that's why you hear the scream for better AI's, not for more MP experience, people want to play "alone" a lot of the time and want a worthy opponent, they don't always and in most cases never want to have to play against other humans. The largest MMO and online gaming MP platform LINEAGE/LINEAGE II support AI, along with pvp community. If they ever split it, they would split their community, same for Everquest (which by the way is NOT going to have ANY pvp in EQ2), AO, UO, DAOC and the rest. Shadowbane tried to be that MP pvp type only game and look where it fell. Pitiful numbers for a community, hanging on by a thread, but, will "never" have the populations of the likes of EVERQUEST or SWG's.

You can want MP to reign supreme, and you can want them to forget adding AI's, but, it will be a rare day to see it. The "majority" is just not going to buy it.

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 10

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/29/2004 8:08:36 PM

benpark

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No AI=no purchase for me.

I will second the original post-the AI in BiN is top notch.

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RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/30/2004 3:54:07 AM

wodin

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No Ai will equla no purchase for me also. The game Im really into at the moment as some may tell is Squad Battles, I play it PBEM but when I have no turns I want to play against the AI. I prefer PBEM games rather than hotseat as I want to play the game in my own time against another human. With time zone/work and wife problems finding the right time for two players to meet up is not always easy.

A game needs a good AI, everyone knows an AI isnt going to be as competent as anothe rhuman but at least its there when you want a game at any time. To be restricted on when you can play a game you enjoy because you have no one to play against would be bad news. When I was younger I bought many Roleplay games and board wargames but never played any of them as I had no other mates into it at all. Thank god for the PC. If it wasnt for that I'd have never played a wargame yet and have been deproved of a great hobby.

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Post #: 12

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/30/2004 6:16:48 AM

ioticus

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AI is the raison de tendre I buy computer games. The better the AI, the more I like the game in general. Unfortunately, this means good games are few and far between from my perspective.

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Post #: 13

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/30/2004 7:47:31 PM

dudalb_slith

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Prester John does appear to be tilting at windmills in his campaign for "No AI" games.
From everything Ihave read about the Computer gaming industry, the vast majority of games are played against AI.
No AI means no purchase for me ALSO as far as a wargame goes. If the game includes a good multiplayer system, why would multiplayer enthusiasts object to A1?
It really does not matter AI is here to stay.

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Post #: 14

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/31/2004 5:26:09 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

... the vast majority of games are played against AI...

Whilst not wishing to flame any fire, the vast majority of ALL war games (PC or board) are played solitaire and always have been. Hence the addition of solitaire ratings on game boxes, which took Avalon Hill 20-30 years to incorporate on theirs (delayed by great reluctance only on the part of that company's management as opposed to their customers) and though that company is now dead, those ratings remain on effectively, all other company game boxes to date.

So much so, that some of Avalon Hill's last games were the solitaire-only; "B17", "Patton's Best", "Raid on St Nazaire" and "Solitaire Advanced Squad Leader". Victory Games' best seller was the mutliple-titled, solitaire-only "Ambush" series.

Adam.

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Post #: 15

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/31/2004 10:59:28 AM

PresbyterJohn

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For all the great games that people like to play against the computer, regardless of how poor an opponent it is, how do you explain that (AI-less) board games are still being sold?

If the AI game is the only way to go then how can this be explained? And since I am one of the people who has bought a newly published board game recently, I find the idea that "AI is a must" is not supported by the facts. Now given that AI-less board games are being published (with VASSAL support even), why is it so hard to see the place for a internet playable board game without the boards and pieces? Dollars rule, and programming an AI costs money. So does printing maps and counters. Cut the costs for the people who want to play these types of games and sell the AI-less version for a considerable saving.

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RE: Absolutely superb AI - 10/31/2004 2:27:34 PM

ravinhood

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It's easy Prester John, because the "majority" of gamers wouldn't buy a computer game without an AI. It's just that simple. Solitare play is rated higher than multiplayer play. Mainly because of "time" contraints to most gamers. Especially adults. PBEM takes too long, thus not as many games can be played. Online MP has lag issues, cheat issues, mouthing lil dweeb issues and is thus only popular to mostly kids and a handful of adults.

It doesn't have to be a perfect ai, though we'll always push for that, but, it at least needs enough difficulty levels to provide challenge to most everyone, even hard-core grogs who don't mind playing games at a disadvantage and attempting to beat the odds, I'm that type of gamer. The computer can have advantages & handicaps (cheats some call them) much higher than I on it's highest difficulty and I will play to beat that, it's a challenge, it's the only one I can get and it's fun to try and sometimes win.

You're just kind of a one man show when you're trying to eliminate AI's from computer games, millions of people by them because they have AI's, I would say the number one reason and then graphics and gameplay 2ndary and then MP/PBEM last. And that's including ALL types of games not just wargames.

I've seen polls on various sites the same ones SP vs MP and SP wins out everytime well over a 3 to 1 margin. So it's pretty clear that SP rules and AI rules the SP game.

And sure there's some die-hard board wargamers, it's not totally dead yet or there wouldn't be a market at all, but, the market is small, much smaller than computer strategy/wargames by far, so development and programming goes where the $$ are and money is in computer strategy/wargames and AI's. I prefer computer wargames not only for the AI, but, because they nicely save the map setup, no pieces ever go missing or the cat runs across the board and everything gets messed up. No arguing about the rules, because the rules are built into the program, no having to lookup a rule every turn because the interface and UI and system of movement and combat are pretty simple. And because you can have many more wargames with "Fog of War" than you can with a board wargame. But, without an AI, I wouldn't be playing any computer wargames. Just don't have the time for face to face or online play or PBEM even lots of times. Plus PBEM you lose concentration, especially if the other player takes 2 or 3 days to make a move.
So, I'm pretty sure AI's are here to stay, in fact to only improve and get better over time, that's the goal and that's another reason why they must remain.

And as for you, well just about all games you can play "hotseat" or "PBEM" so you aren't losing a thing to AI production, except the added time needed to produce the game and I think there's plenty of games out there for you to play not to get upset, just because you don't have a new game to play everyday. ;)

Oh and since you brought up "pricing", look at Matrix as a prime example, they left retail sales and went to direct sales/direct download so they could get "all" the money for their product and not have to share with distributers or retail, did they give us a discount? Did they pass on the savings to the consumers? No, they actually INCREASED the price, because they aren't going to get the consumers #'s they once had at the retail level. So thinking, just because they eliminate the AI you are going to get a "cheaper" game is sort of silly, you'll just pay the "same price" or MORE for a game without an AI.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 10/31/2004 7:31:58 AM >

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 17

AI, Rommel and a Question for SSG - 10/31/2004 3:25:41 PM

Adam Parker

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John has a point in that if a designer knows his AI will suck, then it would be better to cut the development investment and leave it out all together. My game collection is full of titles promising great AI's that of course have failed to deliver. Aren't ours all? It would have been nicer to say "look we just can't make it work so here's a cheaper option six months early".

However, I personally buy my games for play vs AI, I love multiplayer too for the sheer suspense of having a "thinking" opponent waiting to reply. But for one school of support to deny the existence or belittle the desires of the other is just wasted effort imo (and this is in response to no-one in particular here - just a broad observation). Both schools exist and today delivering a misleadingly bad AI in a PC game is just as wrong as leaving out the ability to play human to human.

You see, where a designer can make an AI work then leaving it out would be ridiculous. For the biggest strength of the PC other than reducing map space, organizing counters, doing the record keeping and allowing for some much more complex math is providing the fog of war. Head to head board gamers require an umpired set-up to achieve the same and only if the design so caters, at a much longer play session too.

But let's bring this back to BiN where the AI is doing a fine job of providing that suspense. The "Rommel's Plan" official campaign is really posing some huge strategic headaches for me right now.

I don't know if someone at SSG can answer this but am I right in thinking that naval firepower in "Rommel's Plan" is less effective, are there more fortifications at start and is the AI more prone to leaving detachments and creating its own strongpoints during the game? The AI in this campaign (and I haven't peeked!) just seems to be doing a whole lot more of everything - including attacking

Adam.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 18

RE: AI, Rommel and a Question for SSG - 11/1/2004 2:42:56 AM

ravinhood

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Heh, yeah that's what happens when you take a Hitler out of the picture, It would be interesting to go back in time and eliminate Hitler after the war started and placed someone else in charge, maybe not Rommel, because he made a better field (marshall) commander, but, someone more reliable of "listening" to his staff instead of dictating to them.

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Post #: 19

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/1/2004 7:12:41 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

It's easy Prester John, because the "majority" of gamers wouldn't buy a computer game without an AI. It's just that simple. Solitare play is rated higher than multiplayer play. Mainly because of "time" contraints to most gamers. Especially adults. PBEM takes too long, thus not as many games can be played. Online MP has lag issues, cheat issues, mouthing lil dweeb issues and is thus only popular to mostly kids and a handful of adults.

It doesn't have to be a perfect ai, though we'll always push for that, but, it at least needs enough difficulty levels to provide challenge to most everyone, even hard-core grogs who don't mind playing games at a disadvantage and attempting to beat the odds, I'm that type of gamer. The computer can have advantages & handicaps (cheats some call them) much higher than I on it's highest difficulty and I will play to beat that, it's a challenge, it's the only one I can get and it's fun to try and sometimes win.

You're just kind of a one man show when you're trying to eliminate AI's from computer games, millions of people by them because they have AI's, I would say the number one reason and then graphics and gameplay 2ndary and then MP/PBEM last. And that's including ALL types of games not just wargames.

I've seen polls on various sites the same ones SP vs MP and SP wins out everytime well over a 3 to 1 margin. So it's pretty clear that SP rules and AI rules the SP game.

And sure there's some die-hard board wargamers, it's not totally dead yet or there wouldn't be a market at all, but, the market is small, much smaller than computer strategy/wargames by far, so development and programming goes where the $$ are and money is in computer strategy/wargames and AI's. I prefer computer wargames not only for the AI, but, because they nicely save the map setup, no pieces ever go missing or the cat runs across the board and everything gets messed up. No arguing about the rules, because the rules are built into the program, no having to lookup a rule every turn because the interface and UI and system of movement and combat are pretty simple. And because you can have many more wargames with "Fog of War" than you can with a board wargame. But, without an AI, I wouldn't be playing any computer wargames. Just don't have the time for face to face or online play or PBEM even lots of times. Plus PBEM you lose concentration, especially if the other player takes 2 or 3 days to make a move.
So, I'm pretty sure AI's are here to stay, in fact to only improve and get better over time, that's the goal and that's another reason why they must remain.

And as for you, well just about all games you can play "hotseat" or "PBEM" so you aren't losing a thing to AI production, except the added time needed to produce the game and I think there's plenty of games out there for you to play not to get upset, just because you don't have a new game to play everyday. ;)

Oh and since you brought up "pricing", look at Matrix as a prime example, they left retail sales and went to direct sales/direct download so they could get "all" the money for their product and not have to share with distributers or retail, did they give us a discount? Did they pass on the savings to the consumers? No, they actually INCREASED the price, because they aren't going to get the consumers #'s they once had at the retail level. So thinking, just because they eliminate the AI you are going to get a "cheaper" game is sort of silly, you'll just pay the "same price" or MORE for a game without an AI.

I think you've lost the plot. The majority of gamers are not buying these games anyway. That's what I'm telling you but it's just not sinking in is it? Also it's not sinking in when I tell you, and you can trust me on this, that board games are being sold right now without AI (you will of course find this impossible to believe), regardless of what the majority of gamers want. As for where you got the idea that I'm trying to eliminate AI from computer games, I'm afraid that's all your idea. What I'm after is a series of cheaper wargames which I can buy as a specific substitute for board games that don't need to occupy the whole dining room table for a month and need a lot of charts. Those are the reasons YOU list for wanting a game with AI. Now that's screwy. Why do you say that you want to avoid all the hassles of AI-less boardgames when you aren't even playing those board games? And the same goes for the majority of computer game players. They are not a factor because they aren't tossing up the option of buying a board game or equivalent. They just want to buy the AI in all it's usually inept, mostly scripted, glory. Fine for the majority of computer game players, but they are not even the target market sector for such a concept as a boardgame on the computer.

Also why is it so hard to grasp that if I'm paying for the (usually lousy) AI but not using it then I'm losing out on value for money, regardless of whether it can also be played hotseat or PBEM. Is this such a difficult concept that it needs to be said more than one to have it sink in? But anyway why don't you go ahead and list all those hex and turn based WW2 wargames which can be played online, head to head, and preferably in simultaneous time, like a board game. You reckon there are plenty, and I don't think there are many at all, so I'd like to see you list some. Currently I have BiN and the Campaign Series on that list, TOAW being too "cheat prone" (CS is too but less likely when played direct connect). Now seeing as you think there are plenty this should be easy.

Matrix's policies on the matter of pricing have nothing to do with this issue, and maybe that's why you are having a problem understanding this concept. If they (any game production house) aren't paying AI programmers it will be cheaper to produce. Same goes for a board game where they don't have to print counters and maps. And it will be more convenient to play than a board game. End of story as far as AI and wargames goes.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 20

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/2/2004 4:30:04 AM

ravinhood

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My goodness must I really list all those games? I don't feel like listing 100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat. Just too many to list. Just scroll through Matrix titles, HPS titles, Shrapnel titles, and then Empires, Panzer General series, Combat Mission Series, Close Combat Series, Talon Soft Series, QQP series (oldies but a goodie), the list NWS has is almost the best one on the net, though they still do not have any Matrix Titles of late, if I played naval battle games or air combat games or sub combat games the list would be even longer, oh and Avalon Hill had several as well, Midway, Bismark, Planet Miners, then gesh SSI had a slew of them, mainly hotseat though, back in the 80's didn't have internet just bbs, man there's just too many.

You can goto the underdog.org site and put in "war" and you will get a list a mile long of computer wargames.

And really board wargames to computer wargames is apples to oranges, and there's not going to be a move to the mass market appeal to create a board game to computer conversion only solely for convience. And that's what you are looking for convience. That's what most computer wargames bring us, convience with an AI. Which the majority of us "less one" who enjoy and are glad to have when there isn't a human opponent around.

Just gotta go with the flow joe, since there is no screaming market for board game to computer conversion without an AI. Les the Sarge might like it though. ;)

Myself I would prefer board wargame to computer conversion with AI's. That would be great. Squad Leader by Paradox?!! LOL ROFLMAO of all the people to get the rights to it, why did it have to be them. lol

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 21

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/2/2004 10:52:57 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

My goodness must I really list all those games? I don't feel like listing 100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat. Just too many to list. Just scroll through Matrix titles, HPS titles, Shrapnel titles, and then Empires, Panzer General series, Combat Mission Series, Close Combat Series, Talon Soft Series, QQP series (oldies but a goodie), the list NWS has is almost the best one on the net, though they still do not have any Matrix Titles of late, if I played naval battle games or air combat games or sub combat games the list would be even longer, oh and Avalon Hill had several as well, Midway, Bismark, Planet Miners, then gesh SSI had a slew of them, mainly hotseat though, back in the 80's didn't have internet just bbs, man there's just too many.

You can goto the underdog.org site and put in "war" and you will get a list a mile long of computer wargames.

Well lets see about those hundreds shall we. Matrix offers BiN and the now out of date KP. Steel Panthers had some appeal but is now too out of date. Uncommon Valor is okay but WitP is too unwieldy. Battle front has Strategic Command only. HPS does have the Panzer Campaigns series and a couple of the Squad Battles series as valid games. All Shrapnel has is the now dated Combat Command Series. The Talonsoft Campaign Series are dated too but still look okay. TOAW is not acceptable. The rest are too old or not turn and hex based games. That seems to put paid to this delusion of yours of hundreds. Now consider how much it costs to buy those games, with the usually terrible AI included. It doesn't stand up that those games are acceptable as cheaper functional alternatives to board games.

Oh and SSI. Really? Gaming in all it's EGA glory. You need to stop living in the past. They were good at the time I suppose but who is going to play something that looks like that now? Really if it's not available in 1024 by 768 it's not going to be suitable as a board game alternative is it.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 22

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/2/2004 1:41:06 PM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
Joined: 8/18/2003
From: Reno, Nevada
Status: offline

I would just briefly like to add that I had purchased "Ardennes Offensive " from SSG a number of years ago. Although somewhat impressive, it just didn't "grab" me. However I didn get Korsun Pocket but did not at the time have a chance to really look at it. I just purchased BIN and have never been so impressed with a computer wargame . The graphics are great; the interface is brilliant and the A.I. is challenging. I just read thru the turtorial (very well done) and have briefly played with the game machanics. After a practice game or two I will be ready to try a human opponent.

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 23

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/2/2004 6:08:01 PM

Warpstorm

Posts: 49
Joined: 10/6/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John
Also it's not sinking in when I tell you, and you can trust me on this, that board games are being sold right now without AI (you will of course find this impossible to believe), regardless of what the majority of gamers want. As for where you got the idea that I'm trying to eliminate AI from computer games, I'm afraid that's all your idea. What I'm after is a series of cheaper wargames which I can buy as a specific substitute for board games that don't need to occupy the whole dining room table for a month and need a lot of charts.

Why not just play board wargames PBEM using CyberBoard? It's free and many, many games have been ported to it.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 24

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/3/2004 9:43:15 AM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warpstorm

Why not just play board wargames PBEM using CyberBoard? It's free and many, many games have been ported to it.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

Yes, that's the usual reply. I must admit at least it's better than saying there are "100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat".

The issue is that you still need to do the book-keeping and know the detail of the rules. What you need is the rest of the advantages, where the game does all the accounting and doesn't let you do anything which is against the rules. No dodgy line-of-sight calls, and no incorrect DRM's. And if properly designed it would speed up the boardgame a lot.

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/3/2004 7:46:16 AM >

(in reply to Warpstorm)

Post #: 25

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/3/2004 8:23:47 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

Ummm, I still play my old SSI games with friends and solo. And I had left out the SSG games, completely forgot about those like Carrier Force and Europe Ablaze and then their whole Civil War series and Napolean series.

By your defiintion though it isn't a wargame unless it looks like a board wargame, well if anyone is living in the "past" that is you, because that definition has far changed since the 60's 70's years. Things change, get used to it. It's an AI computer wargaming time, it's their (and some of our) market now, and the old die hard board wargamer is just drifting off slowly into the sunset. (at least as far as computer games are concerned).

Want all yah want, dream what you'll dream, who knows someone might actually do it, but, for now, sorry, ain't happening. ;)

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 26

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/4/2004 2:16:36 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 27

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/4/2004 3:22:12 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

Well I understand his point and want Wodin, I was like that myself when I first got into computer wargaming. And at first back in 81-83 or 84 that's practically what you got from SSI. Knights in the Desert, Battle of the Bulge, Battle for Nomandy, all 3 of those really were pretty close board wargame to computer game conversions. But, not exactly what I was looking for. I was always looking for Squad Leader on the computer, but, with a great AI. Panzers East or something like that and Typhoon of Steel, Kampfgroupe and Battlegroup were the real first close to Squad Leader games I encountered. In fact those are the games that Steel Panthers came from if I'm not mistaken. I'd have to pull out my game manuals to look at the designers, but, I'm pretty sure Grigsbys name is on at least two of them.

But, as the years have passed by, the lil square counters with numbers on them have mostly changed into well first 8bit stickmen and tanks, and then they improved a little better to 16bit, then 32bit etc. and then someone thought up an isometric view of these little square counters we use to push around a card-board or paper map. The stats are still the same, the terrain advantages and movement ability are still the same, the combat results tables are still the same, but, the little square counters have grown up into these 3 demensional massive icons that some even have a little life to them. I guess Rome Total War would be the most outstanding graphical display of that little square card-board counter we used to play with. Now, they've grown up into raging barbarians with paint all over their faces, standing, yelling screaming, rushing, charging swinging swords and shield and all sorts of weapons, man, who would have ever thought back then that just a few years down the road well heh 40 to be exact that we'd see those little card-board counters turn into something like Rome Total War or even Steel Panthers or Combat Mission. Of course the board map has evolved right along with the square card-board counters. Now we get rich fresh 3d graphical maps to play on as well. Some you can even go right down to ground level and view the goings on, once again Rome Total War and Combat Mission. This adds a bit of immersion to the game, but, really doesn't have any affect on the outcome of the battle, it just looks kewl.

Board wargames have been converted to the computer, but, in a different way than the old board wargame style. Oh Matrix still holds onto the old school in several games, but, even they "Tin Soldiers" are moving away from the common square counter board wargame game piece I think. HPS they have added some 2D like units to their games as well. Eagle Strike I believe. Talonsoft did the same, gave you a choice in fact. However you look at them though, they are all still wargames, but, not quite the same face as the board wargames of old. And that's what the gentleman wants. He's just not ready to give up his card-board wargaming platform yet and just wants a conversion that will do all the math and give him the same gameplay as a board wargame with the convience that I spoke about.

And of course one of the great things about them all, even though it isn't the greatest challenge in many cases, the AI is still there when you don't have anyone else to play with. If anything it's a good testing tool for trying out various things, even though it won't react like a human would, you can still see a lot of ways to play, like Combat Mission and trying to find that darn hill that you can see everything from, lol, I still have a problem placing some of my units in that game, I swear I have a LOS and the game when I start tells me I do not. lol

I'm an old board wargamer, but, I was willing to accept change, I sort of was glad of it, I got so tired of stacks of units falling off of each other, someone kicked the table and the pieces got moved everywhere. And then of course when my wargaming buddies moved away, there was nobody to play with and I just never could get into playing a game against myself. I tried, I tried hard, but, it was boring, I always won and I always lost. lol.
I guess I'm too competitive and I need a different brain than my own for the challenge. I cannot challenge myself, because I know all my sneaky tactics. lol So that is why I would never buy a computer wargame without an AI, or any game for that matter. If you're going to do that, might just as well buy a board game, that market needs you. There is just no large market for board wargame to computer without an AI out there. In fact this is the first person I ever ran into that even suggested something like this since like 1983.

And also now that I have tasted the AI and these new 2D and 3D games, it's very hard to go back to the old school and even play a square countered board wargame anymore. Though I do from time to time and have every intention of purchasing AGW when it is released and only $29.99 I might add. So long live the AI and may it continue to improve, even after I'm dead and gone. :)

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 28

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/4/2004 6:57:42 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

By coincidence one of my favorite war titles is the regimental level board game "Breakout Normandy" and it used to occupy my time solitaire. It was the best and last of Avalon Hill's 3 efforts in area-style wargaming. That is to say, no traditional hexes, rather a then, very "modern" shift away to map "areas" through which units moved. Some of us will know it well.

The rulebook and box in this 2-person game went to extraordinary efforts to assure customers how well it would play solitaire due to its further innovations in variable turn impulses and the nature of the battlefield's historical intelligence. That says enough in itself

Thing is, whilst this debate seems to be going on here, SSG's "Battles In Normandy" as a solitaire gaming experience, is beating Breakout hands down.

Look, I too continue to buy board war games. Downtown and Memoir '44 in the past few months. Heck even Axis and Allies DDay! Thing is, these games take space - in the case of Downtown, its paper map needs protection in the form of glass or lamination - and for nearly all of my collection, I need a safe playing location for upwards of a week. Plus an encyclopedic mind to remember rules and operate dice rolling mechanics. All very hard to come by in modern adult times!

But the issue relevant to this debate, is that BiN with its
AI is providing a hell of a good gaming moment for me at present and I'm far from through with it by a long stretch.

Adam.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 29

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/4/2004 7:46:26 AM

Pustov

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

I like PBEM....But the AI is the most important part in a game to me....and I hope SSG will make the AI better and improve on this.